Had to deal with it myself....but it doesn't bother me as bad as a TO that allows someone with 1.....1 copy of a HLC to have it on 2 B-Wing and then goes on to win the pay to play tourney! Especially when we are told we are going by FFG's tourney FAQ!

Ouch, that i would call.

Unless TO informed all in advance it was ok to do such a thing

Getting things early adds intrinsic value. So does winning things. It creates a story around the item. It makes it special. If you don't understand that you're missing something else entirely. I can tell you every book I've ever picked up before the release date. And what Bookstore I got it at.

This leads us into somewhat deeper waters than is really on-topic;

"What is value"

I will save us both some time and agree that, yeah, my ideas on the subject are substantially different than cultural norm. *shrug*

If having a plastic toy a month sooner than everyone else even remotely scales into your system of values, I... I just don't even....

You don't even what? Know what to say? You could say something like "I guess we have different values, agree to disagree." That would be something a teenager might even be mature enough to do. That would be something that a person who doesn't pretend like only those with less disposable income (which, surprise! isn't only teenagers) prioritize winning might even understand.

The only thing that's wrong is believing only your own opinion matters. I asked a question with plenty of room for interpretation, and you gave me a very narrow definition of right and wrong. Again, there are plenty of people out there who would disagree with you, and I can tell you that in all confidence out of personal experience.

Nope.

And the deliberate lack of substance in this comment firmly establishes you as a troll. Have a nice day.

Ok people, seriously. We dont need to resort to the level of agression that has hit this topic.

I was just looking for a general census on anyone who might have run into this kind of thing and how it was handled.

We all have met different kinds of players.

The win at all costs type

The casual, i could care less who wins, type

The, i want everything measured to the mm type

And i could go on,

We all have our own feelings about all the other players out there, so how do we deal with the ones who make our experience a negative one?

This does not require mud slinging to discuss, so please be considerate to one another.

The way you judge some one can be a double edged sword, for you reveal yourself and open yourself to being judged.

Now back to my vacation.......

Boots and pants

And boots and pants

And boots and pants......

The age old war of "casual" vs "competitive" players. Where the only ones who wins are those that enjoy seeing forums burn.

Tournaments can possibly bring out the worse in people, no matter what is on the line. And the definition of what is considered "casual" is so vague, that some "casuals" are actually competitive to others. There is no winning.

If having a plastic toy a month sooner than everyone else even remotely scales into your system of values, I... I just don't even....

You don't even what? Know what to say? You could say something like "I guess we have different values, agree to disagree." That would be something a teenager might even be mature enough to do. That would be something that a person who doesn't pretend like only those with less disposable income (which, surprise! isn't only teenagers) prioritize winning might even understand.

The only thing that's wrong is believing only your own opinion matters. I asked a question with plenty of room for interpretation, and you gave me a very narrow definition of right and wrong. Again, there are plenty of people out there who would disagree with you, and I can tell you that in all confidence out of personal experience.

Nope.

And the deliberate lack of substance in this comment firmly establishes you as a troll. Have a nice day.

A troll calling other people a troll, trollception.

There's no room here for these "opinions" you feel are so important.

X-wing played for fun makes sense.

X-wing played to "win" is a pointless waste of time.

Nobody is bound to play by this standard, but if they don't I'm going to judge them. By my standards, not theirs.

And as a result, the cost for them is ultimately greater than any potential gains.

This is simple. 1+1=2 stuff.

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

Go look over Waaag's posting history before you jump to his/her defense. Also if you want to play the 'your are projecting' game, Waasg's also projecting his/her version of fun onto everyone's game

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

We have very different definitions of objective sir. Mine cannot be applied to the word moral in any way. In my experience all morals are inherently subjective and situational.

Would you consider the Golden Rule a reasonable objective standard?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Because that's mine.

Nope.

The substance is a simple cost/benefit analysis which I mentioned earlier.

If you're there to "win", you are utterly wasting your time. You could "win" more working a minimum wage job for four or five hours. You could "win" more by spending four or five hours learning a marketable skill, or creating a product, or anything.

There's no room here for these "opinions" you feel are so important.

X-wing played for fun makes sense.

X-wing played to "win" is a pointless waste of time.

Nobody is bound to play by this standard, but if they don't I'm going to judge them. By my standards, not theirs.

And as a result, the cost for them is ultimately greater than any potential gains.

This is simple. 1+1=2 stuff.

Again, winning and having fun aren't mutually exclusive. This is simple. 1+1=2 stuff.

Let me give you a short list of incentives for players to win tournaments:

1) At a basic level, it enables you to play more. Having fun is all that's important to you? Winning might pay for one or more events in the future. You pay a $5 entry fee, get $15 dollars in store credit. That's three more events for you to have fun at, for doing something you were already going to do. More simple math.

2) Getting advanced copies of ships is a huge deal to some people, as has already been noted. Have you heard of Assault at Imdaar Alpha? That was what I was referring to earlier. And if you still don't think getting ships before other people is a big deal, you should have seen the lines at Gen Con last year.

3) Winning can also earn you access to tournaments that might not otherwise be available to you. I don't know if FFG is running qualifiers for top tier events yet, but I've heard that winning some tournaments will earn you a first round bye at others. And that's a big deal.

---

Look, I get it. We have different definitions of what makes the game fun, and I'm willing to agree to disagree. But whether out of spite or ignorance, you've completely dismissed an entire portion of the gaming community who play the game for other reasons, even going so far as to label people who don't see eye to eye with you as "douchebags". You clearly don't understand the competitive scene, and that's okay. But please don't pretend like your kitchen table is the only place where people play X-Wing.

.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

While I will agree an objective morality is possible, provided we can agree on a few basic axioms, I think you are reading too much into waaag's post. I like competitive and casual play and I tailor my play to my opponent, but in a tournament I would expect no quarter and give little to none. That doesn't diminish the fun anyone is having, when I miss something I don't get mad at the other person for not reminding me, I laugh at me for foolishness and try to get better.

Still I think you are coming from more or less the right place and we can trade philosophy on a philosophy thread, that might be fun in fact.

Go look over Waaag's posting history before you jump to his/her defense. Also if you want to play the 'your are projecting' game, Waasg's also projecting his/her version of fun onto everyone's game

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

We have very different definitions of objective sir. Mine cannot be applied to the word moral in any way. In my experience all morals are inherently subjective and situational.

Would you consider the Golden Rule a reasonable objective standard?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Because that's mine.

I'll let you work out my thoughts from there.

On morality, the platinum rule beats gold every time. Do unto others as they would like done unto them.

My rule though is simpler, as little harm as possible. Make things better when you can.

On topic, that sounds like slow play, it may or may not be conscious, I have seen people playing borer weapon live combat duck into attacks because the head was an off target. I don't know about malice, and I would not likely say anything if the pattern persisted though it would be time to ask, can you pick up the pace some. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain.

Off topic,

Introverdant you are projecting your version of fun onto everyone's game palsy and calling it objectivly right. That is arrogant and wrong headed. There is no onus to help your opponent remember their moves or miss their mistakes. After the game is a good time to talk about what was good or bad about taticsm strategy and game play.

There is also nothing, at all, wrong with playing to win. Some love the game, win or lose, some prefer to win, some really prefer to win.

Finally, Intro and Hunter, lose the amatue psychoanalysis. It is a jerk move and you both should be better than that. Nothing WAaAAG said merited the insults or belittlement of their maturity. That behavior should be beneath the posters of this board.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

We have very different definitions of objective sir. Mine cannot be applied to the word moral in any way. In my experience all morals are inherently subjective and situational.

Would you consider the Golden Rule a reasonable objective standard?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Because that's mine.

I have a character that will someday grace a novel I write(2 done so far but he hasn't fit any of them so far). I made him up a few years ago. His name is Bob. He's masochistic, mildly retarded, and huge. The only morality he has ever understood is the Golden Rule. He's a serial killer. What he does is what he wants others to do to him, and is something he can survive, but tends to kill or maim the people he's interacting with.

I'll let you work out my thoughts from there.

So....

not such a great objective standard after all.

I assure you that it works reasonably well for those of us who are not criminally insane.

Back on topic.

Slow play.

If it were an issue, I'd try to find a way to politely ask my opponent to play more quickly.

If it remained an issue, I would ask the TO to extend the time limit at future events.

.

Morally, it is objectively right.

From a game-theory standpoint, it is objectively right.

So um.... it is objectively right.

But point taken. Thank you.

While I will agree an objective morality is possible, provided we can agree on a few basic axioms, I think you are reading too much into waaag's post. I like competitive and casual play and I tailor my play to my opponent, but in a tournament I would expect no quarter and give little to none. That doesn't diminish the fun anyone is having, when I miss something I don't get mad at the other person for not reminding me, I laugh at me for foolishness and try to get better.

Still I think you are coming from more or less the right place and we can trade philosophy on a philosophy thread, that might be fun in fact.

Go look over Waaag's posting history before you jump to his/her defense. Also if you want to play the 'your are projecting' game, Waasg's also projecting his/her version of fun onto everyone's game

I am familiar with both your and waaag's history. Take it from a third party with an interest in the betterment of the board, you are crossing lines. I think you should drop it.

Ok armchair moderator.

I come from the mindset of a tournament player of multiple decades, in different gaming genres, a real WIN = EVERYTHING mentality. I'm not college-educated, or a member of any armed force (why was that even mentioned?). I formally believed that I had to do whatever was required to win, be it exploiting mistakes, being unhelpful, even mind-games and (embarrassingly) bullying to an extent. Then I matured mentally. Yes I was winning and attaining many many trophies, trinkets, prizes, etc. But I stopped having 'fun'. I gave away the entire hobby for many years, much to the enjoyment of other players who had to deal with me and my gaming mentality.

I recently got back into the hobby, playing X-wing, SW:LCG, and other games. My entire philosophy has changed, in a major way due to the way X-wing is designed and played. The game lends itself to a communal play-style, at least for me. What other game does one find themselves reaching across the table to lend a hand holding a base still, or a movement template, for their opponent? The base of the game, Star Wars, it engages both players into conversing, quoting, and recalling scenes from the movies/books during the actual gameplay!

The question was asked, "What would you do if you noticed something was missed, etc by your opponent. Would you speak up?" (Not perfectly worded - I apologise). My response is that NOW, I would (and have) point it out to my opponent. Why? Because after the game, casual/tournament/whatever... I walk away win or loss, feeling like a human who did the right thing. OK, I lost because I pointed out the mistake and in the end it hurt me, well I should've played accordingly for if that would've/could've happened with or without my help. OK, so I won anyway - GOOD! That is karma. I did the right thing, I wasn't a ****** in my pointing out the error, and hopefully my opponent took away something from the experience, be it information, or maybe even a better idea of how he/she should play themselves.

The game is an extremely communal game in it's design and it's playstyle. It can be played competitively, but to do so, one does not need to lose touch with their basic compassion and good manners. If you need to take advantage of a mistake or forgotten ability, I say you aren't as good a player as you make out to be.

Win or lose, I play for FUN now. My version fun. It works for me, and I keep getting opponents returning for more games. There are others that seem to get very few games outside of tournaments, hmm makes one wonder, no?

Cheers

I'm not college-educated, or a member of any armed force (why was that even mentioned?).

He asked if I was a teenager. I shared some personal details as a point of reference for how far removed I am from my teen years, and whatever he might have been insinuating about them.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, for a while there I was worried that nobody else was going to answer my question.

ok guys,

this past weekend i played in a store championship, and this one guy and me always seem to be each others nemesis. as we had split the last 2 tournaments.

but this last weekend, we had to face each other in game 2

i ran my standard 4 interceptor list agains XXBB (wedge and biggs)

now it started off with a couple bad evade rolls on my part and i lost and alpha pilot.

from that point i was waiting 3-4 minutes after placing my dials for him to finish placing his. he kept picking them up, changing them, saying oops wrong dial. and i was getting frustrated.

the result was me making moves i would not normally do because i needed to inflict damage to catch back up, but with a limited number of turns i had put my squints in positions i would never do just to get off a few more shots.

i denied him a total victory, he only scored a modified win.

is this an instance of slow play?

or am i just being a sore loser?

honesty please, i can take it.

I thought in genuine tournaments you can't pick up your dial again to alter it, only to check it, even during planning phase to prevent this behavior.

I'm not college-educated, or a member of any armed force (why was that even mentioned?).

He asked if I was a teenager. I shared some personal details as a point of reference for how far removed I am from my teen years, and whatever he might have been insinuating about them.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, for a while there I was worried that nobody else was going to answer my question.

Ah, fair enough. I didn't take that into consideration, my apologies.

I hope my answer to your question was received as intended. No malice or anything. I just answered it from my personal POV, and explained why that was my POV.

Fly Casual everyone, and try to enjoy the games/experiences and of course, your opponents. Without them, you don't have the actual game, casual or competitive.

Cheers

Absolutely nothing wrong with being competitive. I have fun every game I play and constantly play new builds but my main goal once I place my ships is to clear the board of the other guys ships while minimizing my own losses. I have alot fun seeing myself get better and grow as a player and beat people who beat me the last time. Now this is my first ever tabletop mini game so maybe I don't really know the culture but how can you judge a guy for wanting to win a tournament or really wanting to win a tournament? Tournaments by there nature is competitive. Yes competition can bring out the best and worst of people but that's just the nature of the beast. I'm not saying be a hyper competitive, win at all cost, berate the guy who plays slow, kind of person but some people do play games to win.

ok guys,

this past weekend i played in a store championship, and this one guy and me always seem to be each others nemesis. as we had split the last 2 tournaments.

but this last weekend, we had to face each other in game 2

i ran my standard 4 interceptor list agains XXBB (wedge and biggs)

now it started off with a couple bad evade rolls on my part and i lost and alpha pilot.

from that point i was waiting 3-4 minutes after placing my dials for him to finish placing his. he kept picking them up, changing them, saying oops wrong dial. and i was getting frustrated.

the result was me making moves i would not normally do because i needed to inflict damage to catch back up, but with a limited number of turns i had put my squints in positions i would never do just to get off a few more shots.

i denied him a total victory, he only scored a modified win.

is this an instance of slow play?

or am i just being a sore loser?

honesty please, i can take it.

I thought in genuine tournaments you can't pick up your dial again to alter it, only to check it, even during planning phase to prevent this behavior.

ok guys,

this past weekend i played in a store championship, and this one guy and me always seem to be each others nemesis. as we had split the last 2 tournaments.

but this last weekend, we had to face each other in game 2

i ran my standard 4 interceptor list agains XXBB (wedge and biggs)

now it started off with a couple bad evade rolls on my part and i lost and alpha pilot.

from that point i was waiting 3-4 minutes after placing my dials for him to finish placing his. he kept picking them up, changing them, saying oops wrong dial. and i was getting frustrated.

the result was me making moves i would not normally do because i needed to inflict damage to catch back up, but with a limited number of turns i had put my squints in positions i would never do just to get off a few more shots.

i denied him a total victory, he only scored a modified win.

is this an instance of slow play?

or am i just being a sore loser?

honesty please, i can take it.

I thought in genuine tournaments you can't pick up your dial again to alter it, only to check it, even during planning phase to prevent this behavior.

I have not heard that before.

Need to look into it, thanks