Wanted to put it to the community-at-large, see what you guys think of the idea of flying a swarm of TIEs without Howl, but with Targeting Computer.

Obviously, the benefit of Howlrunning is an automatic re-roll of one die (assuming you're within range 1). Anecdotally, I find I hit especially often with her in tow, not to mention if you can land a focus or evade, this is huge.

However, with the advent of Targeting Computer, inquiring minds want to know if we might have similar luck with a field of Academy pilots all donning this modification. Obviously, the negative is it requires an action, and which is no small thing. But, it does mean that you can potentially re-roll BOTH die if needed, or if you fail to need the lock, keep it for future turns. Additionally you get the benefit of not needing to fly in formation (particularly with the likes of Blount on the horizon) -- which has obvious drawbacks (focus-firing, taking up more surface area, etc.).

But Howlrunner is 18 points. Where, if you had a full formation of 7 Academy TIEs with Targeting Computer, that weighs a 98; or replace her with other goodies (PS, flankers, support, etc.).

I know, I know, I know. I'm suggesting something which would require 3-4 copies of Imperial Aces, but I wonder if anyone has tried it or if anyone could see this being viable in the future.

Potential other thoughts: replace Howl in a Howl Mini-Swarm, 14 points of filler in a larger ship Imp build (ex. Double Firesprays, etc.), massive boon for named TIE Fighters and PSwarms (especially Backstabber and Mauler Mithel)?

And... go.

I would much prefer 1 re roll+focus to just TL. I don't really see the Targeting Computer as a really popular upgrade. I guess it will be nice for Soontir to get TL + focus + evade in one turn. But I don't see any other exciting uses.

I would much prefer 1 re roll+focus to just TL. I don't really see the Targeting Computer as a really popular upgrade. I guess it will be nice for Soontir to get TL + focus + evade in one turn. But I don't see any other exciting uses.

I think I would have agreed with you prior to flying Bombers a lot, but I think our Rebellious counterparts will probably agree that they are vital. I like running TLs, but I think maybe for us Imperial players it will take a culture shift to really see their value.

6 Black Squadron + Veteran Instincts

Targeting Computers for 5 of them.

The premise of such a swarm list is to get into a huge fuzzball firefight and take total advantage of having 6 @ 6.

The drawback is that it is actually extremely challenging to fly six late-acting fighters in a fuzzball without piling them up and generally losing lots of actions. Especially when you are flying on a time limit and need to resolve your turns relatively quickly. Also you are highly vulnerable to blockers.

Generally Target Lock decreases in utility with pilot score - various ability related shenanigans notwithstanding. So if you were going to run Academy Pilots, Targeting Computer stops being worth the points.

My two cents.

I feel like this subject keeps coming up a lot because people don't know the probability on focus vs target lock. I'm not a math wizard myself but this topic has been covered many times in the past and the result is that focus and target lock have close to equal odds of improving your attack.

Howlrunner is not good just because she lets you reroll dice. She is effective because she passively allows nearby ships to reroll one die, independent of their own actions. Lost your action? Stressed? Used your focus on defense? Doesn't matter, you can still benefit from her ability. Still have your focus token? Great, she'll still let you reroll a blank and then you can spend that focus token anyway.

Not to mention target lock has its own limitations that focus does not, especially when you are talking about large groups of low PS ships like academy pilots. Targeting computer is essentially best for adding the ability to target lock to a ship that can't already do it, but can perform multiple actions, especially if that ship also has a strong attack value (interceptor with push the limit for example, especially soontir fel). Short of giving yourself the highly situational option of trying to target lock on a flyby and come around for the TL+focus attack on a later turn, simply sticking the targeting computer on a TIE fighter does not get you much and you are probably better off just using those points to improve your squad another way. Even if Howlrunner wasn't in the game it would not make the academy+targeting computer combo desirable.

I know that folks basically say TL and Focus have essentially the same probability, but I also have been suspicious as this seems off from what I remembered from my college statistics class. I've been poking around on xwingdice.com and think that might clear this up a bit -- basically, not all TL/Focus actions are created equal.

Regardless of math, you're totally right. Howl is best because she's passive. I don't think I was comparing "re-roll to re-roll" but comparing Target Lock's additional benefits (can do in a 360 arc, doesn't disappear if you don't use it, possible Focus+TL) to her immediate benefits and the disadvantages (if she dies, if she is out of range).

For everyone who made a comment about low PS TL -- you're totally right. Didn't think about that. Great point.

I think I prefer the targeting computer on interceptors with PTL, where they will sometimes have an extra action that can be used to focus and have an extra attack die to better maximize damage potential with it.

Targeting Computer doesn't make sense for TIE's because the odds of getting hits of any sort don't change between the use of TL vs focus.

Unless you have a specific use for a TL other than as a dice modifier or a way to get 2 actions and the ability to take both TL and focus then putting a TC on a ship seems to be a big waste of points.

I know that folks basically say TL and Focus have essentially the same probability, but I also have been suspicious as this seems off from what I remembered from my college statistics class. I've been poking around on xwingdice.com and think that might clear this up a bit -- basically, not all TL/Focus actions are created equal.

Focus and target lock aren't quite equivalent, because TL has a higher crit chance. But if you count hits and crits as "successes", TL and focus do exactly the same thing.

You're right that TL has some advantages over Howlrunner's reroll, particularly that it allows your fighters to run independently. But the action cost is not only a big thing--it's very nearly the biggest thing. Particularly in the Empire, it takes a lot of work to get a focus+TL stack. But Howlrunner does it easily, for basically as many ships as you want to risk keeping close to her.

And, for ships with a focus token, Howlrunner's buff is almost as good as a "real" target lock. You only need to reroll both dice if you roll two blanks, which happens with a probability of 0.25^2 = 0.0625, or 6% of the time, or 15:1 odds against. And it doesn't take an action, and it doesn't matter what the PS is of the ship that gets buffed, and it doesn't telegraph your target... Howlrunner really is fantastic.

Now, consider back stabber with computer

You're right that TL has some advantages over Howlrunner's reroll, particularly that it allows your fighters to run independently.

To me the only real adavantage here is that if Howl dies, and she'll normally be a priority target, then you lost the ability re-roll all together.

I was thinking bout this a bit last week when we were discussing much the same issue, and I realized that we have to ask a question.

How much is a TL worth on a 2 attack ship?

Howlrunner is worth the points because she's effectively giving a free TL to every ship in range. But how often do people use TL on a A-Wing or Y-Wing other then to launch missile/torpedo? Is TC worth 3 points for a 2 attack ship?

Is TC worth 3 points for a 2 attack ship?

It is not even worth 2 points.

It is not even worth 2 points.

Thanks That's what I get for posting without bothering to refresh my memory on a upgrade I don't use.

It's just not point efficient for allowing you to break formation which ends up being the only "benefit" but it's just not going to pan out because you have Howlrunner.

Swarms are going to need to rethink "flying in formation" at the begining of the match but "converging" during the 1st exchange. It's going to be tricky, but good pilots will make it work. Asteroid placement is going to become a bigger thing too.

If I "Had to" forgo Howlrunner and use TC's I'd likely go:

Mauler + PTL
Backstabber

NB +TC
Black Squad + TC + Opportunist

AP + TC

AP

But the other named tie swarm is soo much better.

I know the math says TL and Focus are the same, but in reality using a Focus is a certainty, while TL is just potential. My problem, like most, is that I have a TL when I need a Focus, and a Focus when I need a TL.

Another issue with target locks that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that sometimes the target lock you have is invalid to use in the current turn. For example, you took a target lock but the target got out of range/arc. Or you took a target lock with multiple ships but the target was destroyed before your current ship could attack it. Howlrunner's effect definitely does not suffer from the 2nd example.

It does have some perks, like not relying on formation flying quite as much. It means you won't have those awesome first few turns of shooting that Howlrunner provides, but you CAN be a bit more unpredictable and can flank with more ships.

I'd say, probably not as good in the end, but could win you some games.

Math is one reason. The other is that focus firing becomes harder. If 7 ships TL the same ship and that enemy ship dies in 4 shots, 3 actions were just wasted. I guess you could split up Focus and TL actions between Ties. Front line uses focus, back line uses TL. You would want to shoot with the TL ships first, though.

We should give it a try before fully writing it off. Any swarm players up for the challenge?

Another issue with target locks that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that sometimes the target lock you have is invalid to use in the current turn. For example, you took a target lock but the target got out of range/arc. Or you took a target lock with multiple ships but the target was destroyed before your current ship could attack it. Howlrunner's effect definitely does not suffer from the 2nd example.

I'll add again this is why I think it is effective on ships like interceptors, or a named TIE Swarm, where you're likely to be flying higher PS pilots.

I think Target Lock only really shines when you're rolling more dice for the attack, such as the case of using Interceptors or special attacks from Mithel and Backstabber, or using it with the synergy of Night Beast's ability. Otherwise it's hardly worthwhile on BS filler/swarm ships like Academy Pilots. (who upgrades unnamed TIE/ln's anyway...?)

We've covered this in depth in the other thread. Seriously bad idea for TC upgrade on a ship with 2 attack dice. Points would be better spent on adding another TIE.

I've also said my bit when this first came up. While it has a few uses it just pales in an overall comparison to the alternatives at least when used with TIE Fighters. A PtL Interceptor could make use of the Targeting Computer but it isn't something you should even think about using on your TIE Swarm.

For the simplest comparison ask yourself which you would rather run with 84 points: AP+TC (x6) or AP (x7).

The other huge detriment I didn't see emphasized is not having a focus for defense if using TL. An AP will be shooting last, and thus needs to be alive to shoot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a 3 agility Tie with no other defense get 1 or 2-shotted due to slightly below ave green dice. However, if he has a focus for defense, all of a sudden he tends to survive MUCH better (3 shots typically unless its R1). Also, pretty much all the Ties need to focus, or the enemy could just focus-fire on the one(s) who TL'ed.

This is why I don't mind shooting second as much in swarm on swarm. Often times those higher PS ties shoot and use focus on the red dice. Then when the AP fire back, they can pick on the Tie without any defense token and usually drop it pretty quick. Plus the ones without focus can still do pretty well with a single Howl re-roll.

If you want TL just try a scimitar swarm. You get twice the hull for only a few points more.

If you want TL just try a scimitar swarm. You get twice the hull for only a few points more.

An interesting thing to note there is how many Bomber Swarms still spend points for Howlrunner even when they have that TL action available naturally.

If you want TL just try a scimitar swarm. You get twice the hull for only a few points more.

An interesting thing to note there is how many Bomber Swarms still spend points for Howlrunner even when they have that TL action available naturally.

If I'm going to run a swarm, I don't really see the benefit of adding Targeting computers, when I can add a ship. None of these arguments for it sway me. The only benefit of having the TC is if you can stack it with Focus, which is very difficult to get unless you have PTL. A PTL + TC Black squadron seems like a wast of points to me. Even on Night beast it seems like a waste, but he's the only one I can see really getting a use out of it. Tie's are meant to be cheap ships.