So the Jedi were like Sherlock Holmes....

(remember he wanted to send Luke out to murder Vader and the emperor, not save Anakin).

Nice spin. The words were "confront", not assassinate. Yoda didn't know how it would play out, just that it was important for Luke to confront Vader, and not underestimate the Emperor.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Sounds like you just discovered "moral relativism". It's a fine rationalization for dictators to justify their actions...I guess it works because people keep falling for it.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. We again get back to what it means for the rebel alliance to be opposing the empire. I'm sure they're called terrorists by the empire. Hell, those WW2 resistance fighters were terrorists, and more than willing to kill civilians who got in their way.

Also, as for calling Yoda incompetent, if we had a president whose hand picked general was found out to be working for the enemy, do you really think that would be a competent president? If we had a pope whose hand picked cardinal went on to try destroying Catholicism, wouldn't that pope be pretty incompetent at his job? I know its disappointing to find out that Yoda pretty much sucked as a Jedi master, but that's what the films depict him as doing. Given that the dude is centuries old, and heads up an order whose stated goal is eradicating sith, he doesn't really get a pass for palpatine pulling the wool over his eyes. Is the dark side force from palpatine so powerful that it makes Yoda make actively bad decisions, or is it more likely that palpatine knew how to prey on the incompetence of the Jedi and the incompetence of the republic? When Yoda says that the dark side is clouding everything, that seems to imply that he's having to rely on his own instincts rather than force powers, and that his instincts are, frankly, terrible (remember he wanted to send Luke out to murder Vader and the emperor, not save Anakin).

I don't think I've ever read anyone as angry and judgmental about a Muppet...................

I seem to recall Obi Wan saying something about only the Sith deal in absolutes............I think it's too late for you Nimsin............the dark side has taken you...................

I don't think I've ever read anyone as angry and judgmental about a Muppet...................

I seem to recall Obi Wan saying something about only the Sith deal in absolutes............I think it's too late for you Nimsin............the dark side has taken you...................

The great irony being the absolutist nature of Obi-Wan's statement.

Star Wars tries very hard to be a simple morality tale, but careful observation (or alternate interpretation) of the setting reveals Star Wars' "simple morality" to be anything but. Sometimes it's more fun to take it at face value. Sometimes it's more interesting to dig.

I don't think I've ever read anyone as angry and judgmental about a Muppet...................

I seem to recall Obi Wan saying something about only the Sith deal in absolutes............I think it's too late for you Nimsin............the dark side has taken you...................

I'm not angry at all about the dude, just stating what happened in the movie. Again, the a big part of the reason why people disliked that movie is that it makes all the characters look bad and dumb. In the movies, Yoda looks bad and acts in foolish ways. I can tell you that I don't make that a part of any games I play, because those aren't the kinds of themes I want to explore in my gaming. I keep stuff pretty black and white and lean toward making things comical.

But this is a thread about the fluff of the movies and why people seem like bad guys. They seem like bad guys because the movie has them act like bad guys. The prequels tend to be unenjoyable because they frame this story about human/alien fallibility in the trappings of an adventure serial and fail to really bridge this gap.

Also, again with that line. "Only the sith deal in absolutes." Only the sith? Absolutely only the sith?

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Sounds like you just discovered "moral relativism".

Mmm, that's some good condescension!

The great irony being the absolutist nature of Obi-Wan's statement.

Star Wars tries very hard to be a simple morality tale, but careful observation (or alternate interpretation) of the setting reveals Star Wars' "simple morality" to be anything but. Sometimes it's more fun to take it at face value. Sometimes it's more interesting to dig.

This. It's fun to dig around in the meanings of movies. Especially popular movies like star wars. Think of it as a thought exercise. I'm giving my reading of the films and what I think they're presenting to the viewer. I've given my reasoning for it.

(remember he wanted to send Luke out to murder Vader and the emperor, not save Anakin).

Nice spin. The words were "confront", not assassinate. Yoda didn't know how it would play out, just that it was important for Luke to confront Vader, and not underestimate the Emperor.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

Sounds like you just discovered "moral relativism". It's a fine rationalization for dictators to justify their actions...I guess it works because people keep falling for it.

Yeah its pretty much SOP for governments to call any groups that use guerrilla warfare against them terrorists, whether or not the label fits. Hell the destruction of Alderaan was, at the time, the most causality producing act of terrorism in Star Wars Galaxy history but the Empire still referred to the rebels as terrorists rather than calling Tarkin a terrorist.

I've just finished watching the trilogy with the Jedi children where they retrieve their lightsabre crystals and end up rescuing Asoka.

Aside from how cute young wookies are, it's really sad thinking that these are destined to be murdered by Anakin. It's also sad thinking that all the cool stuff they're learning is part of becoming a soldier in some ways. Not sure how I feel about that. The idea of warrior-monks is a nice one. But in practice, are they corrupt? I'm starting to come to the position given earlier that they are mostly genuinely good people falling short in not realizing the role they're actually playing. These three episodes did more to drive home the tragedy of Anakin's actions than anything else.

'Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.'

The Clone Wars was a moraly ambigious war. On the one hand the order and stability the Old Republic represented but corrupted to it's core.

On the other the Coalition for more independence and freedom but run most of the part by companies that wanted to protect their ways of working.

And both sides get manipulated behind the scenes by two Sith.

They had heroes and villains on both sides. And that is something i hope to see in the upcoming Rebels show more of.

'Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.'

The Clone Wars was a moraly ambigious war. On the one hand the order and stability the Old Republic represented but corrupted to it's core.

On the other the Coalition for more independence and freedom but run most of the part by companies that wanted to protect their ways of working.

And both sides get manipulated behind the scenes by two Sith.

They had heroes and villains on both sides. And that is something i hope to see in the upcoming Rebels show more of.

I began this thread by wondering if what I was seeing was accidental hypocrisy or deliberate juxtaposition of perception and reality. The films read to me as out and out simple Good vs. Evil, without subtext, but watching the Clone Wars, I'm now convinced it's deliberate, but often tremendously subtle. It's almost as if someone were trying to slip political commentary past censors.

What just solidified it for me was watching the episode "Sabotage" which is the one where Asoka and Anakin investigate a bombing within the temple. Asoka asked Anakin if it could really be a Jedi who carried out the bombing as has been rumoured. Anakin replies: "Not every Jedi agrees with this war, Asoka. There are many political idealists among us."

The more that reply is considered, the more it becomes interesting.

I've just finished watching the trilogy with the Jedi children where they retrieve their lightsabre crystals and end up rescuing Asoka.

Aside from how cute young wookies are, it's really sad thinking that these are destined to be murdered by Anakin. It's also sad thinking that all the cool stuff they're learning is part of becoming a soldier in some ways. Not sure how I feel about that. The idea of warrior-monks is a nice one. But in practice, are they corrupt? I'm starting to come to the position given earlier that they are mostly genuinely good people falling short in not realizing the role they're actually playing. These three episodes did more to drive home the tragedy of Anakin's actions than anything else.

I may have had a similar thought.

I've just finished watching the trilogy with the Jedi children where they retrieve their lightsabre crystals and end up rescuing Asoka.

Aside from how cute young wookies are, it's really sad thinking that these are destined to be murdered by Anakin. It's also sad thinking that all the cool stuff they're learning is part of becoming a soldier in some ways. Not sure how I feel about that. The idea of warrior-monks is a nice one. But in practice, are they corrupt? I'm starting to come to the position given earlier that they are mostly genuinely good people falling short in not realizing the role they're actually playing. These three episodes did more to drive home the tragedy of Anakin's actions than anything else.

I may have had a similar thought.

You made that? Yeah. I've just gone through the same moment. It's really sad.

(Maybe not so much the two on the right - they were annoying. But the rest, definitely.)

I began this thread by wondering if what I was seeing was accidental hypocrisy or deliberate juxtaposition of perception and reality. The films read to me as out and out simple Good vs. Evil, without subtext, but watching the Clone Wars, I'm now convinced it's deliberate, but often tremendously subtle.

Agreed. I find the movies almost unwatchable anymore. TCW is much more nuanced. I think you'll enjoy season 6...

You made that? Yeah. I've just gone through the same moment. It's really sad.

Yeah. I did. Also, I believe David Tennant voiced the droid in that string of episodes.

Jumping on a tangent. When F&D comes out, I think I might throw these kids in my games as an adult band of renegades.

I've just finished watching the trilogy with the Jedi children where they retrieve their lightsabre crystals and end up rescuing Asoka.

Aside from how cute young wookies are, it's really sad thinking that these are destined to be murdered by Anakin. It's also sad thinking that all the cool stuff they're learning is part of becoming a soldier in some ways. Not sure how I feel about that. The idea of warrior-monks is a nice one. But in practice, are they corrupt? I'm starting to come to the position given earlier that they are mostly genuinely good people falling short in not realizing the role they're actually playing. These three episodes did more to drive home the tragedy of Anakin's actions than anything else.

Actually, the entire SW:TCW series is ultimately depressing, since you know what's going to happen to everyone. They flesh out all of these really cool characters, like Kit Fisto (my favorite), Ki Adi Mundi, Aayla Secura, Luminara Unduli, and Plo Koon, but you know that they all die ignominiously during the purge. The named clone troopers are also cool, like Rex and Cody, and sometimes show great courage (in spite of their ingrained fatalism), but they ultimately have no loyalty to the Jedi, only to following mindless orders, and commit mass murder without even flinching. Even Anakin is a likeable character, complete with his flaws, which is amazing considering the movie version came across as creepy and unlikeable (and poorly acted).

Don't get me wrong: I love the show and I'm currently watching them all on Netflix, but the more I watch it, the sadder I get knowing it'll all come crashing down in the end.

Don't get me wrong: I love the show and I'm currently watching them all on Netflix, but the more I watch it, the sadder I get knowing it'll all come crashing down in the end.

Some of the greatest stories are tragedies... Maybe that's on reason I find TCW more compelling.

This thread is immensely fascinating.

Don't get me wrong: I love the show and I'm currently watching them all on Netflix, but the more I watch it, the sadder I get knowing it'll all come crashing down in the end.

Some of the greatest stories are tragedies... Maybe that's on reason I find TCW more compelling.

It sure put Episode III in a different light for me. Like a lot of people (I'm guessing), I saw the three prequels once and wrote them off as tripe. After watching TCW, I've seen them all again. They still have plot holes you could send an I-Class Star Destroyer through (and, of course... shudder... Jar Jar Binks), but tears almost came to my eyes during Episode III when Order 66 was given.

TCW is far superior to any of the prequels.

'Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.'

The Clone Wars was a moraly ambigious war. On the one hand the order and stability the Old Republic represented but corrupted to it's core.

On the other the Coalition for more independence and freedom but run most of the part by companies that wanted to protect their ways of working.

And both sides get manipulated behind the scenes by two Sith.

They had heroes and villains on both sides. And that is something i hope to see in the upcoming Rebels show more of.

Yeah the heroes on both sides is definitely something that I feel the comics did a much better job of showing than any of the other media related to the Clone Wars. The only heroic Separatists seen on screen are civilians or politicians, never soldiers or military officers. I always hoped that would be fixed in later seasons but it never happened.

Don't get me wrong: I love the show and I'm currently watching them all on Netflix, but the more I watch it, the sadder I get knowing it'll all come crashing down in the end.

Some of the greatest stories are tragedies... Maybe that's on reason I find TCW more compelling.

Indeed. I'm a generally optimistic person, and I have a distaste for most modern "oh look at me, i'm so dark" stuff. Mainly because these days that tends to be de rigeur and it's relied on as a selling point. Writers and producers think it makes them edgy, rather than the same as everything else out there. But TCW is proper tragedy and I'm finding it very compelling. I've just watched the sequence where Fives learns of the chip. The entire mini-arc was a steady building of dread for me right from the start. Where Tupp starts mumbling "A good soldier follows orders, a good soldier follows orders..." I immediately knew what was happening but really didn't want it to be happening. "Oh, please no," was the thought that kept running through my head. It's tremendously effective.

I felt similarly about the arc at the end of the last season which results in Asoka leaving. I don't blame her and think she did the right thing, but it was amazing how engaged I was with it. Right down to the little touch of Anakin confessing: "I understand wanting to walk away from the order" and Asoka replying: "I know". It's left unconfirmed but I think that they were talking about Padme. The little look of surprise on Anakin's face when she says it hints at that for me. It sounded more about something specific. But the main thing I wanted to say is that "Wrong Jedi" arc really started to build up the horror of the Empire in a way that the prequels never achieved. Suddenly being on the wrong side of all that military might was scary. Seeing the architectural touches of the OT start to appear was very powerful. As was the half-build of the *almost* Emperor's March, but not quite.

You're right: Tragedy is exactly the word for this in the classical sense. Tragedy is not about things ending badly. Any media can do that. Tragedy is about knowing you're heading toward something terrible and not being able to stop.

Also, Tarkin makes me want to punch him.

You made that? Yeah. I've just gone through the same moment. It's really sad.

Yeah. I did. Also, I believe David Tennant voiced the droid in that string of episodes.

I didn't realize it was Tennant, but I did notice how the voice acting for that droid was extremely good. Now I know why.

Don't get me wrong: I love the show and I'm currently watching them all on Netflix, but the more I watch it, the sadder I get knowing it'll all come crashing down in the end.

Some of the greatest stories are tragedies... Maybe that's on reason I find TCW more compelling.

Indeed. I'm a generally optimistic person, and I have a distaste for most modern "oh look at me, i'm so dark" stuff. Mainly because these days that tends to be de rigeur and it's relied on as a selling point. Writers and producers think it makes them edgy, rather than the same as everything else out there. But TCW is proper tragedy and I'm finding it very compelling. I've just watched the sequence where Fives learns of the chip. The entire mini-arc was a steady building of dread for me right from the start. Where Tupp starts mumbling "A good soldier follows orders, a good soldier follows orders..." I immediately knew what was happening but really didn't want it to be happening. "Oh, please no," was the thought that kept running through my head. It's tremendously effective.

I felt similarly about the arc at the end of the last season which results in Asoka leaving. I don't blame her and think she did the right thing, but it was amazing how engaged I was with it. Right down to the little touch of Anakin confessing: "I understand wanting to walk away from the order" and Asoka replying: "I know". It's left unconfirmed but I think that they were talking about Padme. The little look of surprise on Anakin's face when she says it hints at that for me. It sounded more about something specific. But the main thing I wanted to say is that "Wrong Jedi" arc really started to build up the horror of the Empire in a way that the prequels never achieved. Suddenly being on the wrong side of all that military might was scary. Seeing the architectural touches of the OT start to appear was very powerful. As was the half-build of the *almost* Emperor's March, but not quite.

You're right: Tragedy is exactly the word for this in the classical sense. Tragedy is not about things ending badly. Any media can do that. Tragedy is about knowing you're heading toward something terrible and not being able to stop.

Also, Tarkin makes me want to punch him.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

2: They never provided anything remotely near an adequate explanation for why the real traitor turned against the Jedi Order. The way the series has it they apparently just woke up one day, decided war was evil, and that the order they had belonged too since they were a baby was evil for being part of a war. Than decided to bomb the temple and frame a friend for it.

3: Asoka was doing almost everything she could to make herself look guilty than got upset because people thought she was guilty.

1. I doubt the TV show creators wanted to spend the time and effort fact checking the EU when they are creating their own material, they did own the IP afterall.

2. Might've been something that would have been explored is S6. Maybe a chance someday we might know, but not in any detail I would imagine.

3. Ahsoka wasn't acting like a clever Jedi I agree, more like a amateur.

1. I doubt the TV show creators wanted to spend the time and effort fact checking the EU when they are creating their own material, they did own the IP afterall.

C'mon, is it really that hard when you've got Leland Chee on the payroll? Allegedly, at least one of the creators of KotOR II took the time to read every single Star Wars novel to date when developing the game. It was one of the reasons the deconstructionist take on Star Wars and roleplaying tropes worked so well. (This is subjective, I know.) No one is expecting that level of dedication, but the quick perusal of a few links on Wookieepedia wouldn't have been too much to ask.

This is why a lot of people feel that either the creators of The Clone Wars had zero respect for established canon, or they were writing for Star Wars and they knew virtually nothing about established canon. I'm not sure which is worse. Then again, I suppose the latter is not unlike J. J. Abrams directing Star Trek movies.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

If you're referring to Barriss, yeah, that rubbed me wrong, but otherwise they'd have to introduce a new character who would obviously be the traitor. Too bad they didn't have time.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

Agreed 100%. Anytime I can get Star Wars stuff straight from the original source (Lucas) I will take it over the EU. Which is why I bemoaned the sale of the IP to Disney. I can't help but feel everything from here on out will be fan films. But yeah, I have loved TCW from the original movie. I found the movie and the series so compelling because it was fleshing out so much history and you knew it was all going to come crashing down. Plus they got to explore ideas that would not have fit into the films: witches, Mortis, Mandalorians, younglings, Maul, Ventress, bounty hunters, good vs. evil/heroes on both sides, and Grevious! So good!