I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

Agreed 100%. Anytime I can get Star Wars stuff straight from the original source (Lucas) I will take it over the EU. Which is why I bemoaned the sale of the IP to Disney. I can't help but feel everything from here on out will be fan films. But yeah, I have loved TCW from the original movie. I found the movie and the series so compelling because it was fleshing out so much history and you knew it was all going to come crashing down. Plus they got to explore ideas that would not have fit into the films: witches, Mortis, Mandalorians, younglings, Maul, Ventress, bounty hunters, good vs. evil/heroes on both sides, and Grevious! So good!

I don't know, I mean the original trilogy will always hold a very special place in my heart, but even that has its weak points. Lucas is a brilliant world builder, but her can't tell a story or write dialogue to save his life. In my opinion the only good things from EP I were Darth Maul, Qui Gon Jin and occasionally Obi Wan (McGregor grew into the role). EP II was a little better, aside from the emo attitude of Anakin, seriously I'll be he was a cutter. Then Ep III was sadly all over the place, some great moments and some absolutely horrible moments. So I've come to believe that Lucas isn't the best guardian of the IP, he certainly should never be allowed to write again. Yes I know he owned it until recently, so he could do what he wants, but could and should are two different things.

The EU is just as bad, it has some great stuff and then some horrible things. But its never really been considered hard canon, so it was always easier to shrug it off.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

If you're referring to Barriss, yeah, that rubbed me wrong, but otherwise they'd have to introduce a new character who would obviously be the traitor. Too bad they didn't have time.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

They could have easily brought back one or both of the survivors from the Padawan Lost (aka Deadliest game in Star Wars) arc. Better yet bring them and Barriss back than have there be clues indicating that each of the three might be the real traitor so the revelation would be a shock.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

Agreed 100%. Anytime I can get Star Wars stuff straight from the original source (Lucas) I will take it over the EU. Which is why I bemoaned the sale of the IP to Disney. I can't help but feel everything from here on out will be fan films. But yeah, I have loved TCW from the original movie. I found the movie and the series so compelling because it was fleshing out so much history and you knew it was all going to come crashing down. Plus they got to explore ideas that would not have fit into the films: witches, Mortis, Mandalorians, younglings, Maul, Ventress, bounty hunters, good vs. evil/heroes on both sides, and Grevious! So good!

If you're going to write in a setting that uses multiple authors than the least you can do as courtesy to the writers who proceeded IMO is review the older works to make sure your ideas won't clash with what came before, and if they do see if you can find a way to tell the story you want without.conflicting with what came before. What's worse is pretty much every case where the TCW and the EU clashed was something where all it would take is a tiny amount of work to tell the same story and keep it in line with the EU.

And do you really think they did a good job showing heroes on both sides given that the good Separatists we saw in the series either ended up being killed by their own movement or eventually rejoining the Republic?

Many of the episode stories came straight form George Lucas. It's possible that the writers had little choice in the matter. Because of this fact, TCW is largely considered canon, (or T-Canon if we use the tiered nomenclature), which takes precedence over anything established strictly from EU. I'm honestly not arguing here, but I think these points need to be mentioned.

Many of the episode stories came straight form George Lucas.

Do you have a source on this?

Many of the episode stories came straight form George Lucas.

Do you have a source on this?

Watch any of the behind the scenes videos on you tube of Dave Filoni discussing any particular episode of TCW and you will see them in a writing session with Lucas.

I would post a link but there are a **** ton of videos on the SW channel on youtube to sort through.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

If you're referring to Barriss, yeah, that rubbed me wrong, but otherwise they'd have to introduce a new character who would obviously be the traitor. Too bad they didn't have time.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

They could have easily brought back one or both of the survivors from the Padawan Lost (aka Deadliest game in Star Wars) arc. Better yet bring them and Barriss back than have there be clues indicating that each of the three might be the real traitor so the revelation would be a shock.

I hated the final arc of season 5 for many reasons.

1: Its another example of the series writers trampling over the work of the EU writers whose works proceeded theirs when they could have easily told the same story without clashing with the EU at all.

Otherwise, most of the EU is pure garbage, I kind of enjoy the trampling.

Agreed 100%. Anytime I can get Star Wars stuff straight from the original source (Lucas) I will take it over the EU. Which is why I bemoaned the sale of the IP to Disney. I can't help but feel everything from here on out will be fan films. But yeah, I have loved TCW from the original movie. I found the movie and the series so compelling because it was fleshing out so much history and you knew it was all going to come crashing down. Plus they got to explore ideas that would not have fit into the films: witches, Mortis, Mandalorians, younglings, Maul, Ventress, bounty hunters, good vs. evil/heroes on both sides, and Grevious! So good!

If you're going to write in a setting that uses multiple authors than the least you can do as courtesy to the writers who proceeded IMO is review the older works to make sure your ideas won't clash with what came before, and if they do see if you can find a way to tell the story you want without.conflicting with what came before. What's worse is pretty much every case where the TCW and the EU clashed was something where all it would take is a tiny amount of work to tell the same story and keep it in line with the EU.

And do you really think they did a good job showing heroes on both sides given that the good Separatists we saw in the series either ended up being killed by their own movement or eventually rejoining the Republic?

Eh. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter. The stories still exist and you can re-read or re-watch them and enjoy them for what they are, or we can bicker and debate back and forth about it. Just check out the What is YOUR canon thread. and you will see Star Wars means very different things for everyone. Me, I hate A New Hope and it ranks as one of my least favorite among all 6 films (BUT I still love it cause it is Star Wars!). I've also never really put that much stake in the EU. I view all of the EU as just fan fiction anyway. Which isn't a bad thing, there are some fantastic stories that I love in the EU, particularly the Dark Horse comics. So with that point of view, where the EU gets trampled by "official" or "higher" canon, I could care less. I like it all so it doesn't matter.

Many of the episode stories came straight form George Lucas. It's possible that the writers had little choice in the matter. Because of this fact, TCW is largely considered canon, (or T-Canon if we use the tiered nomenclature), which takes precedence over anything established strictly from EU. I'm honestly not arguing here, but I think these points need to be mentioned.

The impression I got from the behind the scenes videos was always that the basic concepts come from Lucas, but that he didn't write the actual stories. Like with Empire, the best Star Wars stuff is done with his idea, but he doesn't do the actually writing.

Many of the episode stories came straight form George Lucas. It's possible that the writers had little choice in the matter. Because of this fact, TCW is largely considered canon, (or T-Canon if we use the tiered nomenclature), which takes precedence over anything established strictly from EU. I'm honestly not arguing here, but I think these points need to be mentioned.

The impression I got from the behind the scenes videos was always that the basic concepts come from Lucas, but that he didn't write the actual stories. Like with Empire, the best Star Wars stuff is done with his idea, but he doesn't do the actually writing.

Right. That's what I meant. I suppose I should have been more clear in previous post.

Many of the episode stories came straight form George Lucas. It's possible that the writers had little choice in the matter. Because of this fact, TCW is largely considered canon, (or T-Canon if we use the tiered nomenclature), which takes precedence over anything established strictly from EU. I'm honestly not arguing here, but I think these points need to be mentioned.

The impression I got from the behind the scenes videos was always that the basic concepts come from Lucas, but that he didn't write the actual stories. Like with Empire, the best Star Wars stuff is done with his idea, but he doesn't do the actually writing.

Right. That's what I meant. I suppose I should have been more clear in previous post.

My misunderstanding then.

Yeah honestly I don't think Lucas even read every script given that the gathering arc threw his no Jedi Wookiee rule out much less wrote them all. He might have given the writers ideas to build on but the execution was left to the writers, and while there are many arcs that I feel were wastes of episodes and time, I believe that the clashes with the EU come from the paths that the writers chose to carry out the ideas Lucas gave them rather than the ideas themselves in most cases.

To be fair to those opposed to killing the Geonoshians. You may be over reacting. Most of the Geonoshians we see killed are not sentient in the sense that a human is. Only the elite Geonoshians have free will and the ability to act as they wish. The other castes are more drones who follow sophisticated programming.

They can be "intelligent" within their area of specialization, but are not fully equipped to be called sentient. Thinking of them as biological computers might be a better way to examine the issue.

However, killing them in a war were they are the ones protecting the manufactories is certainly justified. Killing them with flame throwers isn't all that bad either. The point of war is make them dead before they do unto you.

I know some people will never understand this, but death is death. One can suffer far more from a gut shot than being burned to death. People find some means more "acceptable" for the method of killing, but it's all semantics. Why is bleeding out from shrapnel better than Sarin Gas? They both suck. I'd rather be nuked than shot. I'd be instantly incinerated. Way less pain.

How is less important than why. Why you kill your enemy will always be the trump card in the morality of conflict. Some methods of killing have consequences that are undesirable (like say irradiating the territory you're trying to conquer, or pissing off a population that wasn't hostile to you), but you're avoiding those plans for practical reasons -- not arbitrary "moralities".

History is replete with examples of why separatist movements end in bloodshed. When it comes to individuals, live and let live is the best course of action. When it comes to nations, it's no longer so simple. Scale matters. Planets and pebbles are just rock, but oh what a difference.

Wars are always about economics. They're about protecting what one already has or about taking what you don't. Individuals might fight for causes, but nations fight for money. When nations fragment one side ends up with fewer resources. Look at the Koreas. That's a separatist wound that hasn't healed.

In US history the Civil War was about preventing the South from secession, but the South really only wanted to protect slavery. It's hard to see how the South would have a higher standard of living if it had succeeded. Slavery is a stupid way to run your economy after all. It's far too inefficient (as well as morally repulsive).

The Republic was far, far from perfect, and armed conflict was inevitable. Good guys and bad guys are sort of irrelevant. We were rooting for the Jedi.

Where there is government there is corruption.

Where there is no government there is anarchy and disorder.

Democracy gives too many people power.

Tyranny gives one man too much power.

There is no good or evil. Only points of view.

Were the Sith evil, or did they become evil due to Jedi persecution. Did Darth Vader bring balance to the Force by culling some Jedi and creating a more equal light/dark balance? Too much day would scorch the Earth. Too much night would Freeze the Earth. Day and Night, Summer and Winter, all is balance. Plants need rain as well as sun to survive.

To be fair to those opposed to killing the Geonoshians. You may be over reacting. Most of the Geonoshians we see killed are not sentient in the sense that a human is. Only the elite Geonoshians have free will and the ability to act as they wish. The other castes are more drones who follow sophisticated programming.

They can be "intelligent" within their area of specialization, but are not fully equipped to be called sentient. Thinking of them as biological computers might be a better way to examine the issue.

However, killing them in a war were they are the ones protecting the manufactories is certainly justified. Killing them with flame throwers isn't all that bad either. The point of war is make them dead before they do unto you.

I know some people will never understand this, but death is death. One can suffer far more from a gut shot than being burned to death. People find some means more "acceptable" for the method of killing, but it's all semantics. Why is bleeding out from shrapnel better than Sarin Gas? They both suck. I'd rather be nuked than shot. I'd be instantly incinerated. Way less pain.

How is less important than why. Why you kill your enemy will always be the trump card in the morality of conflict. Some methods of killing have consequences that are undesirable (like say irradiating the territory you're trying to conquer, or pissing off a population that wasn't hostile to you), but you're avoiding those plans for practical reasons -- not arbitrary "moralities".

History is replete with examples of why separatist movements end in bloodshed. When it comes to individuals, live and let live is the best course of action. When it comes to nations, it's no longer so simple. Scale matters. Planets and pebbles are just rock, but oh what a difference.

Wars are always about economics. They're about protecting what one already has or about taking what you don't. Individuals might fight for causes, but nations fight for money. When nations fragment one side ends up with fewer resources. Look at the Koreas. That's a separatist wound that hasn't healed.

In US history the Civil War was about preventing the South from secession, but the South really only wanted to protect slavery. It's hard to see how the South would have a higher standard of living if it had succeeded. Slavery is a stupid way to run your economy after all. It's far too inefficient (as well as morally repulsive).

The Republic was far, far from perfect, and armed conflict was inevitable. Good guys and bad guys are sort of irrelevant. We were rooting for the Jedi.

Slavery was doomed even if the South had won the war IMO, or been allowed to secede peacefully, The changes the South would have had to make in order to become a viable independent nation, and pressure from its trade partners would have doomed slavery. Not to mention that the end of the war the South offered slaves freedom for military service but by than it was too little too late.

Still I agree soldiers, and officers, fight for causes while nations fight for money. Look at the US Civil War again. The bloodiest war ever in terms of US lives lost started because of a minor skirmish at a tariff collection outpost.

I'll agree that the Jedi Order wasn't good and pretty incompetent in the movies..they did get exterminated after all.

What I disagree with is that the Empire and the Sith are good, or can even be seen as good in any form. They're dictators, slavers, mass murderers and genocidal. It's pretty clear after they destroy Alderaan, a pacifist planet. It's pretty clear they're very, very evil, like serial killer rapist evil. They'll do the worst things, and then justify it with some sophist pablum. At some point you have to ignore the words and look at the actions.

They do a lot of stuff that clearly isn't just to win war..it's to **** with people and make them afraid. The Sith are not interested in freedom or any of that stuff..they're interested in power wielded by one dude, and all of them want to be that dude. It's pretty clear when the Sith are in charge. they'll just start cannabalizing one another. It's an evil, stupid and unsustainable philosophy that requires A Rule of Two to even progress.

As for questions about terrorism or whatever, that's all garbage. That stuff comes from the fact that the United States hasn't fought a true opponent since WW2, someone that could actually stand up to us in a full scale war. In a true war you bomb cities and kill civilians in order to force the enemy to defend them, as well as destroy their logistical supply. You sort it all out in the end and you suck up your guilty conscience, because the other option is to lose, and to lose is to die. War is hell and it's never just or moral, it's about a bunch of apes ******* killing each other. Anyone telling you anyone different is a politician, and thus a liar.

Yeah I find the claim one of the in universe authors in the Essential Guide to Warfare makes that Palpatine was trying to conquer the galaxy to get ready for the Vong laughable.

There would have been a small rebellion after the Republic became the Empire no matter what IMO. But most of the actions and laws which inspired enough people to join, and worlds to aid, the rebellion for it to become a real threat actually would have hindered the Empire's ability to fight the Vong not aided in the fight.

Because the Republic didn't want to let the Separatists split off, and since the Jedi aren't part of the Republic government they didn't really get a vote. The Separatists were basically like the Irish Separatists, and you can see how well that went in Northern Ireland.

There would have been a small rebellion after the Republic became the Empire no matter what IMO. But most of the actions and laws which inspired enough people to join, and worlds to aid, the rebellion for it to become a real threat actually would have hindered the Empire's ability to fight the Vong not aided in the fight.

Well, the Imperial Navy, given a couple more decades to build up further, probably would have been at a much better strength to counter the Vong than the New Republic was.

Really, the Empire's mistake was to use a massive strategic weapon as a tool of state-sponsored terrorism. Worlds that were ok with being a part of the Empire because of stability turned away quick when they heard about a planet being destroyed for stepping out of line politically.

Yeah if he was really trying to prepare for the Vong his two biggest mistakes were endorsing slavery, and using the Death Star as a terror weapon.

No slavery would have meant no Mon Calamari shipyards building cruisers for the rebellion and no Admiral Ackbar leading the rebel fleet plus many other rebels wouldn't have rebelled. Oh and Han Solo would have stayed in the Imperial Navy.

The Death Star should have been tested on some out of the way world than hidden until the Vong arrived if it had really been intended for use against them.

I think that the propaganda that Palpatine conquered the galaxy in preparation for the Vong is good in order to sustain some level of dignity in the new Fel Empire.

Separatists morph into the rebel alliance, especially in EotE era

Not really There were some former Separatists, who were willing to disavow the movement and join the Alliance, and may others either loosely allied with the Alliance or agreeing to stay out of each others way but the Separatists and the Alliance had different goals, though they usually weren't goals that clashed with each other. Most of the Separatists which wished to conquer the Republic rather than just leave it were long dead by the time the Alliance formed IMO.

It's worth considering that individuals in the rebellion and the empire might go against type.

There can be noble imperials who can't wrap their minds around those who want to tear down the system. I mean the rebels are getting a lot of folks killed because they didn't want to fix the system from within. That the imperial is slow to realize the system is rigged doesn't make him a bad person. Poor judgement doesn't make you evil.

There are undoubtedly rebels who fight because they like hurting people. Kicking ass on the side of "good" means they can gain social status while exercising their sadism. It's a win-win for them, but a lose-lose for everyone else after the war. Is it worth working with these psychopaths to achieve the greater good of removing the Sith from power?

Enterprising groups can tell some excellent stories about these moral grey areas if they want. Those who don't want to see such shades in Star Wars don't have to.

It's worth considering that individuals in the rebellion and the empire might go against type.

There can be noble imperials who can't wrap their minds around those who want to tear down the system. I mean the rebels are getting a lot of folks killed because they didn't want to fix the system from within. That the imperial is slow to realize the system is rigged doesn't make him a bad person. Poor judgement doesn't make you evil.

There are undoubtedly rebels who fight because they like hurting people. Kicking ass on the side of "good" means they can gain social status while exercising their sadism. It's a win-win for them, but a lose-lose for everyone else after the war. Is it worth working with these psychopaths to achieve the greater good of removing the Sith from power?

Enterprising groups can tell some excellent stories about these moral grey areas if they want. Those who don't want to see such shades in Star Wars don't have to.

My thoughts exactly.