Okay, I have EotE on order, should arrive next week. In the meantime I'm sketching out plot ideas. What confuses me is why the Separatists are the bad guys. Or were the bad guys depending on when you set your game.

Now I do know that both sides were being played by Palpatine. And I'm aware that the Separatists were being headed up by Dooku who is a Sith Lord and therefore in theory the Separatists are "bad guys" by default.

But if you were a regular person A Long, Long Time Ago, and didn't make allowances for "this faction has Christopher Lee amongst them", then why are the Separatists bad guys. And why would an order like the Jedi who are supposed to be enlightened and interested in peace, wage war against them. That's pretty drastic because as far as I understand it, the separatists basically wanted to secede from the Republic. And according to my ethics, that's a reasonable thing to be allowed to do - choice and all that. The Jedi and the republic forces, as far as I can tell, are going out waging war against planets to force them to stay under Republic rule. Even before Palpatine started suspending various democratic processes a philosophy of submit to our government or we invade is dubious. Afterwards, it becomes downright unsupportable, doesn't it?

What makes the separatist cause wrong and the republic armies good, other than George Lucas' assumptions. I don't get it. If I were any random citizen back then, I would have thought my natural inclination was that the separatists were entitled to self-government.

The Jedi did not get involved at the beginning. How ever once the separatist began to threaten the establishment of the republic by attempting to force other planets to join them this is when the Jedi get involved. The Jedi at this time are the sworn protectors of the republic and as such would have a vested interest in seeing it survive.

Because not much in the prequel trilogy is internally consistent or makes much sense if you scratch the surface. I mean I guess the separatists attacked Coruscant at the beginning of ep 3 but we are never really told what the battle is all about. They have "captured" Palpatine but I guess weren't supposed to hyperspace out so that he could be "rescued" by Anakin. And once Grevious abandons ship I guess the battle just...ends? You never see any end results and no one talks about it again. I think the biggest crime the separatists engaged in was having long boring meetings.

Because the Separatists started as part of the Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo and essentially was painted as greedy NGOs wanting to financially strangle lesser systems, and that they kept any action by the Republic Senate tied up in endless bureaucratic nonsense. Not really all that different than current politics where special interest groups have various legislatures in their pocket and the little guy gets ignored by a lethargic bureaucracy that doesn't care.

So the Separatists weren't actually planets that wanted to secede from the Republic, but rather NGOs such as the Trade Federation which were forcing planets to be "separatist" ?

So the Separatists weren't actually planets that wanted to secede from the Republic, but rather NGOs such as the Trade Federation which were forcing planets to be "separatist" ?

At first, but then the propaganda machine kicked in, helped along by the fact that it was increasingly obvious that the Republic was corrupt, so other planets joined the Separatists to make a political statement. Like most such things, the reality is messier than evil/good. TCW explores this in the Heroes on Both Sides episode and others.

So the Separatists weren't actually planets that wanted to secede from the Republic, but rather NGOs such as the Trade Federation which were forcing planets to be "separatist" ?

A little of column A, a little of column B. On paper, the Confederacy of Independent Systems were secessionists and radical malcontents from within the Republic. They formed an alliance large enough to breakaway, but went to the Trade Federation, the Techno-Union, the Banking Clan and so on for help. These corporations were more than happy to help the separatists (under the direction of Palpatine) while never ending their enterprises with the Republic to do so. As such, these corporations played both sides and made a killing. They definitely stood to gain more from a separatist victory than a Republic one, so they obviously leaned that way. They were accused of essentially being the Separatist war leaders multiple times in the Senate but stood by their claim that they were only acting in a non-political, non-discriminatory fashion and staying strictly within their economically focused mandate.

As far as the Jedi go, they saw the Republic as a symbol of stability, and, of course, their well-being was very much tied up in that of the Republic. Once the Separatist war machine picked up, however, civilians were becoming threatened and so the Jedi became Generals. It's important to note, though, that the Jedi had long since stopped holding to their ideals. The Jedi were on a path of sharp decline long before the Clone Wars.

A basic reason why the Separatists are considered the "bad guys" by the Republic is that when some parts of a state decides to form an independent union, no government simply accepts the break off. Those who are breaking off are considered to be starting an insurrection that must be put down. Of course, when some of the top leaders of the insurrection are found to be evil Sith then that makes the insurrection that much worse.

Fact is, the Republic didn't have a good claim to prevent planets from leaving it. I am pretty sure planets had left the Republic before, per the EU. Just not many, because there were decent benefits to being a member of the Republic.

However, there were two things I see that really kicked off why the CIS was bad at least in the Republic's eyes. First, they were taking some of the biggest, most important megacorps with them. Second, they were going to execute a Senator and Jedi in cold blood.

Of course the GAR was commissioned long before an actual Separatist threat had presented itself, by a former Jedi Master who did it "to preserve the Republic" should the Republic need it.

Really in the West, we would be supporting the CIS for choosing self-determination over being dominated by the Republic, if not for the fact that the CIS was run by a fallen Jedi revealed to be a Sith.

Terms like Good Guys and Bad Guys are a little simplistic. The Republic, ala Good Guys, were mostly decadent dullards looking for someone else to take care of things for them. The Separatists, aka Bad Guys, beyond the leadership, who were in Palpatine's pocket, were naive dupes. The evil was Palpatine.

A basic reason why the Separatists are considered the "bad guys" by the Republic is that when some parts of a state decides to form an independent union, no government simply accepts the break off. Those who are breaking off are considered to be starting an insurrection that must be put down. Of course, when some of the top leaders of the insurrection are found to be evil Sith then that makes the insurrection that much worse.

Oh, to be clear. I can certainly see why the Republic views the Separatists as "bad guys". I can think of a dozen reasons why they would. Anyone passingly familiar with what is happening in Crimea right now can see parallels - our own history is littered with examples and propaganda. What I'm really asking is why the audience viewpoint and the Jedi (who I had thought were supposed to be Good Guys) all regard the Separatists as the villains. In-universe, I can see there are all sorts of perspectives. But out of universe, there seems to be a strong a priori assumption that they are villains, but I couldn't see how it matched up with the actual events. I'm starting to get a feel for it now. It particularly makes sense if the Jedi have been on a decline and started to value authority under the name stability.

Oh, to be clear. I can certainly see why the Republic views the Separatists as "bad guys". I can think of a dozen reasons why they would. Anyone passingly familiar with what is happening in Crimea right now can see parallels - our own history is littered with examples and propaganda. What I'm really asking is why the audience viewpoint and the Jedi (who I had thought were supposed to be Good Guys) all regard the Separatists as the villains.

(1) Trade Fed blockaded Naboo, causing a military crisis that the Senate couldn't solve in part because the Trade Fed lobbied to make it not a problem. Directly lead up to the current crisis.

(2) CIS tried to murder a Senator (took a bit to prove)

(3) CIS tried to execute a Senator and 2 Jedi for just checking out a planet

(4) What other people have said. Think about the USA. We're pretty ok with other pieces of countries declaring independence (see: breakups of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, South Ossetia) but when a piece of our country tried to, we fought a brutal war to prevent them from leaving (and taking their land with them) - and I believe we'd do it again if States tried to secede.

And the audience sides with the Jedi, clearly, so that's who to root for!

Terms like Good Guys and Bad Guys are a little simplistic. The Republic, ala Good Guys, were mostly decadent dullards looking for someone else to take care of things for them. The Separatists, aka Bad Guys, beyond the leadership, who were in Palpatine's pocket, were naive dupes. The evil was Palpatine.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. The audience are given the clear message that Separatists = Bad Guys. (At least in what I've seen so far). We are given a simplistic view. But do the actual events in-universe match up to that? It felt to me that the Jedi were acting on "player knowledge" a lot of the time. Faction X are bad because the GM (director) says they're bad (or are played by Christopher Lee). But I'm interested in what makes them actually the bad-guys in Universe, if indeed they are. If I'm just read the facts that any typical person in the setting would know, then my normal conclusion would be that the Separatists had a fair point.

I keep having flashbacks to that sketch by Mitchell and Webb (here for anyone that hasn't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY )

The Separatists had a fair point. They weren't bad. But the story is told from the side of Republic heroes, and the Clone Wars are simply background to the true story, the Rise of the Empire. But one of the most important parts of the story, when you want to look at it more deeply, is that not a single person in the whole trilogy was right. Nobody did the right thing. Even those who meant well (everyone who wasn't a member of the Trade Federation or similar corporations or a Sith) simply played into the hands of their enemy. In the prequels, the Bad Guy won, and everyone else lost. Everyone thought they were right, but no one got what they wanted.

The misguided self-righteousness of the Jedi was supposed to be apparent, I think. If you take them as the defacto good guys, the movies really do get a bit confused.

If you understand the make up of the Galaxy at the time it makes sense.

The basics are: the Guilds had control outside the Colonies... mid-rim outer rim. THe had enough political power to protect them from censure of the Other non-guild planets. The entire senate couldn't do a thing about the basic invasion and annexation of a planet

The guild didn't care what happened in the senate anymore and eventually the Succeded from the Republic and declared their independence so they could do what ever they wanted.

A good analogy would be Russia taking over Crimea. Or Saddam/Iraq invading Kuwait If you think that kind of stuff is okay... then they are not the bad guys.

A good analogy would be Russia taking over Crimea. Or Saddam/Iraq invading Kuwait If you think that kind of stuff is okay... then they are not the bad guys.

If anything was like these examples, it's the Republic invading to prevent the CIS planets from leaving the Republic. The Republic would lose a ton of territory and taxable assets and be a rump government if they allowed it.

Oh, to be clear. I can certainly see why the Republic views the Separatists as "bad guys". I can think of a dozen reasons why they would. Anyone passingly familiar with what is happening in Crimea right now can see parallels - our own history is littered with examples and propaganda. What I'm really asking is why the audience viewpoint and the Jedi (who I had thought were supposed to be Good Guys) all regard the Separatists as the villains.

(3) CIS tried to execute a Senator and 2 Jedi for just checking out a planet

Obi-Wan was captured in the middle of committing espionage, which in most legal systems I know of is a capital offense. And Anakin and Padme were caught trying to bust him out. It was a bit more than them just checking out the planet.

From our prospective we know that the CIS was trying to kill Padme and Obi-Wan was trying to catch the failed assassin From the prospective of the average Separatist citizen, and most of their soldiers, plus probably many citizens of neutral territories the CIS captured a member of a group known for its loyalty to the Republic who was spying on them. Than another member of that group were captured trying to rescue the first prisoner, and the Republic responded by sending an army onto a Separatist world to rescue 2 Republic agents and a high ranking government official with ties to the Republic's head of state who were captured while committing capital offenses in Separatist territory.

A good analogy would be Russia taking over Crimea. Or Saddam/Iraq invading Kuwait If you think that kind of stuff is okay... then they are not the bad guys.

If anything was like these examples, it's the Republic invading to prevent the CIS planets from leaving the Republic. The Republic would lose a ton of territory and taxable assets and be a rump government if they allowed it.

Tell that to the people on Naboo who were under a blockade by the Nemodians/Trade Federation and having the republic do nothing but elect a new Chancellor

I never really felt that the Separatists were the "bad guys" pawns of the bad guy yes, but they themselves never seemed that way. The Jedi didn't even really seem to want to get involved in a flat out war, until they had to rescue Obi Wan and realized Dooku was clearly using the dark side. Up until then they were more of a security force, and trying to figure out the Sith question brought up in EP 1. From what I can tell shortly after the battle of Geonosis the Seps started invading Rep planets and war was on.

One of the problems with the PT is it fails to establish just how rotten the Republic had become before Palpatine became Chancollor, and things only got worse from there. Even Grievious had legitimate grievances against the Jedi and the Republic but you have to study his backstory beyond the movies to see that Yes he was a fanatic and took his grudges way too far, though that may have not been all his fault, but that doesn't change the fact that his anger at the Republic and Jedi were justified given how the Republic treated his people with the help of the Jedi

Hi:

Any comfort in knowing that the Separatists as "bad guys myth or not" gets a lot of air time in The Clone Wars 3-D animated series?

I think I recall even Padmé had doubts at times about the whole deal... A "bad feeling" if you will. Of course, Annie was crystal clear about which side was good & which bad. Hint: Palpy's never wrong!

HtH

L

Heroes on Both Sides didn't really do it for me. Is there more Separatists are the good guys stuff to come?

Heroes on Both Sides didn't really do it for me. Is there more Separatists are the good guys stuff to come?

By "to come" do you mean from that episode on? Yes there are a few more throughout the show that are in the same vein. Don't expect to ever really see the Seps as show as the greatest heroes ever. As the show goes on there are more episodes that question the war in general. But keep in mind the protagonists Jedi and Clone troopers so it's always going to show them in the more favorable light.

Yeah the comics set during the Clone Wars did a much better job of showing that there were good people on both sides than the cartoon or CGI show did IMO.

A basic reason why the Separatists are considered the "bad guys" by the Republic is that when some parts of a state decides to form an independent union, no government simply accepts the break off. Those who are breaking off are considered to be starting an insurrection that must be put down. Of course, when some of the top leaders of the insurrection are found to be evil Sith then that makes the insurrection that much worse.

Oh, to be clear. I can certainly see why the Republic views the Separatists as "bad guys". I can think of a dozen reasons why they would. Anyone passingly familiar with what is happening in Crimea right now can see parallels - our own history is littered with examples and propaganda. What I'm really asking is why the audience viewpoint and the Jedi (who I had thought were supposed to be Good Guys) all regard the Separatists as the villains. In-universe, I can see there are all sorts of perspectives. But out of universe, there seems to be a strong a priori assumption that they are villains, but I couldn't see how it matched up with the actual events. I'm starting to get a feel for it now. It particularly makes sense if the Jedi have been on a decline and started to value authority under the name stability.

The Jedi knew they weren't able to see the Force as clearly. They knew the dark side was involved in what was going on. Palpatine had no doubt they would sense something so he put Dooku in place as the face of the separatist movement to keep the Jedi from seeing through the real plan. The Separatists were seen as 'bad' because of it to keep anyone from looking too closely at him.