Palpatine was actually a good guy, just trying to unite the galaxy in preparation for the Vong invasion.

He knew the Vong were coming and that the pacifist Jedi/Republic were not prepared to fight off an invasion, so he turned to the dark side and created an empire that could protect the entire galaxy.

But seriously, can you imagine if The rebellion had been crushed at Yavin and the Empire was still in power when the Vong arrived?

Worldships meet Death Stars 1 and 2.

"This battlestation will be very operational when your friends arrive."

Retroactively giving Palpatine a master plan never intended in the writing is Bad Writing. It's not properly forshadowable. It doesn't fit his motivations, or make any sense with the clone wars. If he was gearing up to make the Republic more military there were better ways than wiping out the Jedi Children(Like Brainwashing them into Super-Soldiers). He was clearly working for personal power, whatever the retroactive changes say.

Palpatine was actually a good guy, just trying to unite the galaxy in preparation for the Vong invasion.

He knew the Vong were coming and that the pacifist Jedi/Republic were not prepared to fight off an invasion, so he turned to the dark side and created an empire that could protect the entire galaxy.

But seriously, can you imagine if The rebellion had been crushed at Yavin and the Empire was still in power when the Vong arrived?

Worldships meet Death Stars 1 and 2.

"This battlestation will be very operational when your friends arrive."

Retroactively giving Palpatine a master plan never intended in the writing is Bad Writing. It's not properly forshadowable. It doesn't fit his motivations, or make any sense with the clone wars. If he was gearing up to make the Republic more military there were better ways than wiping out the Jedi Children(Like Brainwashing them into Super-Soldiers). He was clearly working for personal power, whatever the retroactive changes say.

What if he thought that the young Jedi were irredeemably tainted by their Jedi training. Better just to start over with his sith acolytes. Or what if, in turning to the Dark Side for power, he became corrupted and twisted by it and came to hate the Jedi.

Wanting personal power and wanting security for the galaxy are not mutually exclusive goals. At all.

And as for not foreshadowable, there is a whole segment where young Anakin investigates Zonoma Sekot (and meets Vergere) before it disappears. So that objection is taken care of.

That being said, I don't think any serious Star Wars treatment has been given to this idea, but I don't think it's nearly as far of a stretch as you make it out to be.

It's farfetched because from a real world perspective it is impossible. The Vong were created decades after the original Trilogy. There is nothing in the original writing to suggest this and lots and lots that says it just isn't so.

How many five year olds have you dealt with? Or even 10? They are all pretty easy to change. Brainwashing them would have been easy. Instead he wanted to ensure his position of power and remove the force from the mindset of the galaxy. By exterminating the Jedi he secured his rule. From there he continued to make decisions that had very little to do with securing the galaxy. But my real point is that if the writer's are that bad Star Wars is doomed to never get better.

The fact that it came out later in our time is a fairly bad argument.

The whole concept of Anakin/Vader being the chosen one didn't come out until decades after the OT, but they still shoehorn his defeat of Palpatine in Jedi in as part of him "bringing balance to the force."

As for the kids, perhaps as a sith, Palpatine can't stand anything that is touched by the light/Jedi and wants them dead too. And that's not even getting into the rule of two that the sith follow. Could be that he believes two powerful force users really is more effective overall (due to reduced chance of infighting and revolt). I'm arguing reasons for it, I'm just saying that plausible reasons aren't too difficult to come up with.

Palpatine's rallying cry in the senate when he changed the Republic into an Empire was something to the effect of: Liberty, Security, and Peace. (Ep III novelization)

The fact that it came out later in our time is a fairly bad argument.

The whole concept of Anakin/Vader being the chosen one didn't come out until decades after the OT, but they still shoehorn his defeat of Palpatine in Jedi in as part of him "bringing balance to the force."

As for the kids, perhaps as a sith, Palpatine can't stand anything that is touched by the light/Jedi and wants them dead too. And that's not even getting into the rule of two that the sith follow. Could be that he believes two powerful force users really is more effective overall (due to reduced chance of infighting and revolt). I'm arguing reasons for it, I'm just saying that plausible reasons aren't too difficult to come up with.

Palpatine's rallying cry in the senate when he changed the Republic into an Empire was something to the effect of: Liberty, Security, and Peace. (Ep III novelization)

And altering an entire character is very different from following roughly how they ared escribed.(Although the Chosen one thing is just as bad. It's bad writing and obnoxious.

Palpatine was actually a good guy, just trying to unite the galaxy in preparation for the Vong invasion.

He knew the Vong were coming and that the pacifist Jedi/Republic were not prepared to fight off an invasion, so he turned to the dark side and created an empire that could protect the entire galaxy.

But seriously, can you imagine if The rebellion had been crushed at Yavin and the Empire was still in power when the Vong arrived?

Worldships meet Death Stars 1 and 2.

"This battlestation will be very operational when your friends arrive."

Retroactively giving Palpatine a master plan never intended in the writing is Bad Writing. It's not properly forshadowable. It doesn't fit his motivations, or make any sense with the clone wars. If he was gearing up to make the Republic more military there were better ways than wiping out the Jedi Children(Like Brainwashing them into Super-Soldiers). He was clearly working for personal power, whatever the retroactive changes say.

Ok, speaking as someone who loves the NJO series (and is currently in the middle of rereading them), they never stated that Palpatine foresaw the Vong. Luke speculated at one point that maybe he had, or what would happen if he was still around, but at no point is it ever revealed that yup, Palpatine totally saw this coming, all his master plan.

I think the Vong are great precisely because they're so different from anything else in SW. They shook up the universe when that was really needed, because old offshoots of the Empire were getting really dull. Without the Vong invasion and devastation, the events in things like Legacy of the Force and the Legacy comics wouldn't have been possible. I think people get too caught up in things not changing, but nothing good ever happens in a huge universe like Star Wars without a massive upset now and again. I'm kind of sad that we're probably not going to see them in the new movies.

All that said, I think they'd be terrible for X-Wing. There's not enough ship variety, and the ships don't look very nice.

If you aren't willing to accept that Biology can be modified to just as much of degree as tech how can you buy into anything in Star Wars. There are all sorts of Organic creatures that can withstand nigh on impossible conditions. Technology is pretty crappy in comparison to Biology. It works in very specific conditions with no way to adapt. I mean it when I say that biotech is infinitely more useful than straight tech, and is perfectly capable of adapting to any set of conditions, given the capabilities for Bio-engineering seen in Star Wars.

Tech and Biotech in science fiction are both equally plausible, and one of them is far more likely to be able to repair itself.

Have you seen what Graphene can do? Now remember that Carbon is a key feature in living things. In fact Organic basically means, Has Carbon. Give me one good reason that given a society capable of making a Laser that makes planets explode couldn't engineer a creature designed to exploit Graphene's lightweight durability in carbon based life forms. Or it's conductivity or any number of it's other really cool features. Same with Carbon Nano-tubes. are you aware life forms in Avatar were described as having those... Because that could explain a whole lot of their durability if certain numbers of muscle fibers were nigh on indestructable biological bits.

Radiation doesn't affect certain protiens(such as Prions.) and there are plenty of creatures that can survive copious amounts of radiation.(Up to 100 times as much as humans.) That's here. On earth. There's a good chance life in other places can survive significantly more, and can be engineered to repair or even ignore the genetic damage caused by radiation.

Carbon reinforced, not nanotubes. I get where you are going, but I don't agree with you. Life is adaptable and very hard to eliminate but it is also weak in many ways. With nano machines and self replication machines almost become life forms, but they still have access to more potential building material and less restrictions on design. A life form ghost can live in space, at that lack of pressure, will do poorly in atmosphere. To live in space it will have to be anaerobic, or bring air from somewhere, it has to have a power source, food, and will metabolize when parked or when fighting. It also needs access to other sustaining stuff. If it flies, how? Telekinesis? Some kind of vacuole that expels reactant?

I'm with you there are probably a lot of things living tech can do, and inside a super alloy shell, probably would enhance internal systems, maybe. But you are posing a blaster gland and a shield gland and huge g resistance and radiation proofing and and and..

Space is the most hostile environment. 100 times rad proofing doesn't come close to what you would need. Damaged stuff can self repair, unless it can't and then yhe whole ship is gone, you can't salvage to repair other stuff. Maybe organ transplants, but even then you need a stasis device, or something, to keep the parts from dying. Fluids boil in vacuum, so a space critter needs to survive having it's brain chemistry boiling, all the time.

Think of the ani-matrix. The machines crushed humanity by exploiting our weaknesses, a living ship is vulnerable to lack of sleep, you can't rotate pilots. It would have to grow, be trained, and be accustomed to combat, like a warhorse. Disease, psychology, food, water, radiation, atmospheric pressure resilience and some kind of propulsion, weapon and shield organs.

I know sic-if love it some super biotech, but nothing in what I know of biology suggests to me that bio ships are a good idea.

If you aren't willing to accept that Biology can be modified to just as much of degree as tech how can you buy into anything in Star Wars. There are all sorts of Organic creatures that can withstand nigh on impossible conditions. Technology is pretty crappy in comparison to Biology. It works in very specific conditions with no way to adapt. I mean it when I say that biotech is infinitely more useful than straight tech, and is perfectly capable of adapting to any set of conditions, given the capabilities for Bio-engineering seen in Star Wars.

Tech and Biotech in science fiction are both equally plausible, and one of them is far more likely to be able to repair itself.

Have you seen what Graphene can do? Now remember that Carbon is a key feature in living things. In fact Organic basically means, Has Carbon. Give me one good reason that given a society capable of making a Laser that makes planets explode couldn't engineer a creature designed to exploit Graphene's lightweight durability in carbon based life forms. Or it's conductivity or any number of it's other really cool features. Same with Carbon Nano-tubes. are you aware life forms in Avatar were described as having those... Because that could explain a whole lot of their durability if certain numbers of muscle fibers were nigh on indestructable biological bits.

Radiation doesn't affect certain protiens(such as Prions.) and there are plenty of creatures that can survive copious amounts of radiation.(Up to 100 times as much as humans.) That's here. On earth. There's a good chance life in other places can survive significantly more, and can be engineered to repair or even ignore the genetic damage caused by radiation.

Carbon reinforced, not nanotubes. I get where you are going, but I don't agree with you. Life is adaptable and very hard to eliminate but it is also weak in many ways. With nano machines and self replication machines almost become life forms, but they still have access to more potential building material and less restrictions on design. A life form ghost can live in space, at that lack of pressure, will do poorly in atmosphere. To live in space it will have to be anaerobic, or bring air from somewhere, it has to have a power source, food, and will metabolize when parked or when fighting. It also needs access to other sustaining stuff. If it flies, how? Telekinesis? Some kind of vacuole that expels reactant?

I'm with you there are probably a lot of things living tech can do, and inside a super alloy shell, probably would enhance internal systems, maybe. But you are posing a blaster gland and a shield gland and huge g resistance and radiation proofing and and and..

Space is the most hostile environment. 100 times rad proofing doesn't come close to what you would need. Damaged stuff can self repair, unless it can't and then yhe whole ship is gone, you can't salvage to repair other stuff. Maybe organ transplants, but even then you need a stasis device, or something, to keep the parts from dying. Fluids boil in vacuum, so a space critter needs to survive having it's brain chemistry boiling, all the time.

Think of the ani-matrix. The machines crushed humanity by exploiting our weaknesses, a living ship is vulnerable to lack of sleep, you can't rotate pilots. It would have to grow, be trained, and be accustomed to combat, like a warhorse. Disease, psychology, food, water, radiation, atmospheric pressure resilience and some kind of propulsion, weapon and shield organs.

I know sic-if love it some super biotech, but nothing in what I know of biology suggests to me that bio ships are a good idea.

Mynocks Live in space can be in atmosphere and can fly in space. Star wars is science Fiction.

Not even, Star Wars is pretty firmly science fantasy . They explain it well enough for the setting when you keep that in mind. There are space wizards running around with swords made of coherent, contained light. Lots of things don't make sense .

If you aren't willing to accept that Biology can be modified to just as much of degree as tech how can you buy into anything in Star Wars. There are all sorts of Organic creatures that can withstand nigh on impossible conditions. Technology is pretty crappy in comparison to Biology. It works in very specific conditions with no way to adapt. I mean it when I say that biotech is infinitely more useful than straight tech, and is perfectly capable of adapting to any set of conditions, given the capabilities for Bio-engineering seen in Star Wars.

Tech and Biotech in science fiction are both equally plausible, and one of them is far more likely to be able to repair itself.

Have you seen what Graphene can do? Now remember that Carbon is a key feature in living things. In fact Organic basically means, Has Carbon. Give me one good reason that given a society capable of making a Laser that makes planets explode couldn't engineer a creature designed to exploit Graphene's lightweight durability in carbon based life forms. Or it's conductivity or any number of it's other really cool features. Same with Carbon Nano-tubes. are you aware life forms in Avatar were described as having those... Because that could explain a whole lot of their durability if certain numbers of muscle fibers were nigh on indestructable biological bits.

Radiation doesn't affect certain protiens(such as Prions.) and there are plenty of creatures that can survive copious amounts of radiation.(Up to 100 times as much as humans.) That's here. On earth. There's a good chance life in other places can survive significantly more, and can be engineered to repair or even ignore the genetic damage caused by radiation.

Carbon reinforced, not nanotubes. I get where you are going, but I don't agree with you. Life is adaptable and very hard to eliminate but it is also weak in many ways. With nano machines and self replication machines almost become life forms, but they still have access to more potential building material and less restrictions on design. A life form ghost can live in space, at that lack of pressure, will do poorly in atmosphere. To live in space it will have to be anaerobic, or bring air from somewhere, it has to have a power source, food, and will metabolize when parked or when fighting. It also needs access to other sustaining stuff. If it flies, how? Telekinesis? Some kind of vacuole that expels reactant?

I'm with you there are probably a lot of things living tech can do, and inside a super alloy shell, probably would enhance internal systems, maybe. But you are posing a blaster gland and a shield gland and huge g resistance and radiation proofing and and and..

Space is the most hostile environment. 100 times rad proofing doesn't come close to what you would need. Damaged stuff can self repair, unless it can't and then yhe whole ship is gone, you can't salvage to repair other stuff. Maybe organ transplants, but even then you need a stasis device, or something, to keep the parts from dying. Fluids boil in vacuum, so a space critter needs to survive having it's brain chemistry boiling, all the time.

Think of the ani-matrix. The machines crushed humanity by exploiting our weaknesses, a living ship is vulnerable to lack of sleep, you can't rotate pilots. It would have to grow, be trained, and be accustomed to combat, like a warhorse. Disease, psychology, food, water, radiation, atmospheric pressure resilience and some kind of propulsion, weapon and shield organs.

I know sic-if love it some super biotech, but nothing in what I know of biology suggests to me that bio ships are a good idea.

That radiation you talk about. It's energy. Energy living creatures could use with modified photosynthesis, or by using specific bacteria as a layer of absorption. Or using force sensetivity in a focused way to make telekinetic shields(Obviously in Star Wars only). The list goes on.

Fiction should explore all those options and try to make creative ideas seem as real as possible. Bioships have been done. And done well. They should not break your suspension of disbelief unless they don't account for all the variables needed.(Say, they never explain how the bioship propels itself.) The Vong ships accounted for what was needed and were a cool idea. They didn't make up for the rest lf the Vong, but they were easily the best part of the Vong.

If you aren't willing to accept that Biology can be modified to just as much of degree as tech how can you buy into anything in Star Wars. There are all sorts of Organic creatures that can withstand nigh on impossible conditions. Technology is pretty crappy in comparison to Biology. It works in very specific conditions with no way to adapt. I mean it when I say that biotech is infinitely more useful than straight tech, and is perfectly capable of adapting to any set of conditions, given the capabilities for Bio-engineering seen in Star Wars.

Tech and Biotech in science fiction are both equally plausible, and one of them is far more likely to be able to repair itself.

Have you seen what Graphene can do? Now remember that Carbon is a key feature in living things. In fact Organic basically means, Has Carbon. Give me one good reason that given a society capable of making a Laser that makes planets explode couldn't engineer a creature designed to exploit Graphene's lightweight durability in carbon based life forms. Or it's conductivity or any number of it's other really cool features. Same with Carbon Nano-tubes. are you aware life forms in Avatar were described as having those... Because that could explain a whole lot of their durability if certain numbers of muscle fibers were nigh on indestructable biological bits.

Radiation doesn't affect certain protiens(such as Prions.) and there are plenty of creatures that can survive copious amounts of radiation.(Up to 100 times as much as humans.) That's here. On earth. There's a good chance life in other places can survive significantly more, and can be engineered to repair or even ignore the genetic damage caused by radiation.

Carbon reinforced, not nanotubes. I get where you are going, but I don't agree with you. Life is adaptable and very hard to eliminate but it is also weak in many ways. With nano machines and self replication machines almost become life forms, but they still have access to more potential building material and less restrictions on design. A life form ghost can live in space, at that lack of pressure, will do poorly in atmosphere. To live in space it will have to be anaerobic, or bring air from somewhere, it has to have a power source, food, and will metabolize when parked or when fighting. It also needs access to other sustaining stuff. If it flies, how? Telekinesis? Some kind of vacuole that expels reactant?

I'm with you there are probably a lot of things living tech can do, and inside a super alloy shell, probably would enhance internal systems, maybe. But you are posing a blaster gland and a shield gland and huge g resistance and radiation proofing and and and..

Space is the most hostile environment. 100 times rad proofing doesn't come close to what you would need. Damaged stuff can self repair, unless it can't and then yhe whole ship is gone, you can't salvage to repair other stuff. Maybe organ transplants, but even then you need a stasis device, or something, to keep the parts from dying. Fluids boil in vacuum, so a space critter needs to survive having it's brain chemistry boiling, all the time.

Think of the ani-matrix. The machines crushed humanity by exploiting our weaknesses, a living ship is vulnerable to lack of sleep, you can't rotate pilots. It would have to grow, be trained, and be accustomed to combat, like a warhorse. Disease, psychology, food, water, radiation, atmospheric pressure resilience and some kind of propulsion, weapon and shield organs.

I know sic-if love it some super biotech, but nothing in what I know of biology suggests to me that bio ships are a good idea.

Mynocks Live in space can be in atmosphere and can fly in space. Star wars is science Fiction.

One measure of the quality of fiction is authenticity/verisimilitude. Particularly in more speculative fiction.

Case in point, a historical fiction that had Julius Caeser defeat Pompey with nuclear weaponry lacks verisimilitude, but HBO Rome's portrayal of events, while distorted from truth, is not absurd enough to ruin engagement.

Star Wars' "truth" is that technology is a fundamental source of power, but that it can be bested by spirituality (the Force). Luke and the Rebels defeat the Empire with the aid of spiritual realization in ANH and RotJ, and arguably it is the lack of spiritual realization that leads to defeat in ESB. While this is distorted from reality, it calls to those believable and romantic myths, where George slays the Dragon, or a small army of the brink of ruin enacts a daring resistance. It's the Rohan sallying forth from Helm's Deep as the Sun rises; a stretch, but a believable and meaningful stretch.

The EU often misses this, making it seem childish and unappealing, losing what was meaningful about Star Wars, despite the somewhat naive premise of Star Wars as it is.

It misses it when Galen Marek pulls a Star Destroyer out from the sky with his mind. (TFU). Such a feat misses the spiritual power of the force. Darth Vader didn't say the Death Star paled in comparison to the Force because he could crush it like a coke can with his mind. He feared the Force because it allowed daring and brave actions to be guided towards success, such as Lukes' "one in a million" shot. The slaughter of the Jedi was a failing in the Force and spirituality in Anakin, not Darth Vader simply blowing up Jedi with his mind. So Jedi having incredulous powers utterly defies the meaning of the Force and the power of its mysticism. Yoda simply lifting an X-Wing was powerful for a reason. A Star Destroyer defies all stretching of disbelief.

Equally, the Yuuzhan-Vong betray this truth, two fold. Firstly, they purport to be utterly resistant to the Force, ruining the heroic and spiritual nature. The hack job solution to this is simply to make the good guys 'Force harder', rather than 'trust their instincts'. I'm sure there are measures of this as the NJO series goes on, but I note 'trust your instincts' doesn't mean 'believe in yourself so you activate Super Shield' as Jacen Solo does, but rather have a strength of faith, self-awareness and conviction to fight the good fight. There is a reason Luke's final flurry against Vader in RotJ is so powerful, and that's because everything. including the score, is dedicated to the spiritual realization Luke has: he and Vader are two sides of the same coin. The effect would have been ruined if, in his moment of revelation, Luke gained a super shield that made the Emperor then blow up, which is basically what happens with the Vong leader.

Furthermore, biology is not a force that defeats the Force or technology. It is certainly a nuisance to it, like mynocks and the beast from the trash compactor. Weird creatures exist, and are a threat, but the primitive beasts are nothing to the Force or the powers of technology. And I'm incline to believe this is partly because Lucas realizes that alien creatures give flavour, but strength of spirit is a much more believable (and meaningful) foil to technology than 'big teeth and hard hides'. Heck, the success of Ewoks is solely down to strength of spirit and intelligent innovation , not the random chaos of evolution.

I could say a lot, at length, about bio-tech, and others have argued much better than I against the mechanics of it. However, I will posit this as a passing thought:

We should certainly consider the wonders and absurdity of evolution, and science fiction is certainly a fantastic avenue for such explanation. However, why should we sully and limit this exploration by simply making biotech mimic technology, and assert its superiority through the same means as technology? Indeed, a remarkable feature of organic beings is that we use tools and create machines to conquer our frail organic weaknesses. It strikes me that bio-tech is a strange by-product of a strange neo-Luddite admiration of 'organic things'. This pervades all sci-fi, Star Wars included, through memes such as cyborgs not being able to harness psychic powers*, or whatever else. It would be more interesting, to me, to contrast biology's differences to technology and marvel at the times where biology produces wonderful things that are fascinating, rather than 'better' that technology. EG, I find ants fascinating to consider analogues to as part of fantasy not because the can carry heavy things, but because their culture is so fascinatingly alien.

For many, and I would arguably reasonably so, biotech just hits suspension of disbelief too hard. When biotech is a premise for an entire plot arc, it sullies that entire arc for such people.

Wow, sorry, fellow posters, this got very pompous and pretentious very quickly...

To finish with a quote from a different sci-fi franchise though:

"It's just my opinion though, Commander, no need to go spreading it around" =P

* a trope I love playing with and intentionally subverting!

It misses it when Galen Marek pulls a Star Destroyer out from the sky with his mind. (TFU).

That did really bug me. It was so over the top, that it was actually distasteful. It came off as nothing more then a "Oh yeah while look at what my Marry Sue can do!"

Luke had trouble lifting a X-Wing, so Yoda did it to show that simple size wasn't an issue. But there's lots of times where size did matter, Jedi had to struggle to lift or move really large objects. Then here comes Galen "Look how much more powerful then Yoda I am" Marek. The only point behind it, was because Marek could turn it up to 11.

Equally, the Yuuzhan-Vong betray this truth, two fold.

The Vong completely turned me off the EU novels, so I never read most of the NJO. They were such blatant Kryptonite that it it just ruined the books for me. They came off as nothing more then a way for a lazy author's attempt to create a new super-villain that could defeat what were becoming stupidly overpowered heroes.

"The Jedi are so powerful, that we can't do much to stop them. So we'll make up a race that immune to the force..."

Now apparently they weren't completely immune to it, but like I said the whole concept of them turned me off the series so I never bothered reading the rest of it.

"Yuuzhan-Vong" sounds like Jar Jar telling someone they made a mistake.

At first I was like "whaa?"

Then I was like "wait..."

Then I was like "omgrkejrneoaifjensnakdkdn!"

You won the Internet for today.

It misses it when Galen Marek pulls a Star Destroyer out from the sky with his mind. (TFU).

That did really bug me. It was so over the top, that it was actually distasteful. It came off as nothing more then a "Oh yeah while look at what my Marry Sue can do!"Luke had trouble lifting a X-Wing, so Yoda did it to show that simple size wasn't an issue. But there's lots of times where size did matter, Jedi had to struggle to lift or move really large objects. Then here comes Galen "Look how much more powerful then Yoda I am" Marek. The only point behind it, was because Marek could turn it up to 11.

Equally, the Yuuzhan-Vong betray this truth, two fold.

The Vong completely turned me off the EU novels, so I never read most of the NJO. They were such blatant Kryptonite that it it just ruined the books for me. They came off as nothing more then a way for a lazy author's attempt to create a new super-villain that could defeat what were becoming stupidly overpowered heroes."The Jedi are so powerful, that we can't do much to stop them. So we'll make up a race that immune to the force..."Now apparently they weren't completely immune to it, but like I said the whole concept of them turned me off the series so I never bothered reading the rest of it.

The worst part is that Jedi aren't that OP. Running into a different culture with different methodolofies behind Force use would have been far and away more interesting. Something like the Dathomir Witches but on a grander scale. A bit like what Rober Jordan did with the Seanchen in the Wheel of Time minus the bondage fetish bits.(Instead of the bondage fetish bits we got...)

Mynocks Live in space can be in atmosphere and can fly in space. Star wars is science Fiction.

Yes, it is fiction, yes the physics are light, very light, still they were not a treat, they were an irritant. 1 shot kills. On thst note, Han's blaster had enough power to cause severe pain to a creature big enough to use the falcon as dental floss. Think about that and then scale up to the turbo lasers who were vaporizing those rocks in 1 shot. The falcon's shields were hit by a rock and the only damage was to Han's concentration.

I like the myriad aliens, the ylsamary from Thrawn series were a neat, limited foil to the power of the force. The YV are bio techno babble. It is a Star Trek villain in the wrong place. Star Wars stories should be character drama where the tech causes as many problems as it solves and no one says, "quantum sub space hexidecmal fluctuation" to solve the dilemma.

And nothing suggests tha^ metal ships flying through space are a good idea either. They need energy shielding while travelling at high speeds, power sources, basically everything you just listed, except they are manmade. Like biotech... Huh. Weird that they need the same things. Open up your mind a little. Our understanding of biology is incredibly limited. We know what life looks like on one planet. A fairly not-hostile planet by all measure. And yet life lives and thrives on every square foot of it. Even the most blasted sections. Now put a clearly intelligent hand bent on twisting that adaptability to the harshest environments.

That radiation you talk about. It's energy. Energy living creatures could use with modified photosynthesis, or by using specific bacteria as a layer of absorption. Or using force sensetivity in a focused way to make telekinetic shields(Obviously in Star Wars only). The list goes on.

Fiction should explore all those options and try to make creative ideas seem as real as possible. Bioships have been done. And done well. They should not break your suspension of disbelief unless they don't account for all the variables needed.(Say, they never explain how the bioship propels itself.) The Vong ships accounted for what was needed and were a cool idea. They didn't make up for the rest lf the Vong, but they were easily the best part of the Vong.

I'm curious, how did they move? Other than that, I have basically agreed with you that life possibly could be adapted to do all the things hard tech can do. You seem to be missing my points though. The ships use something called hyper matter, with a energy potential that makes anti-matter look like coal. They have outputs that by the tech manuals should put the falcon as something Borg cubes need to fear. Sourced from the guys on star destroyer.net who have put far more research into versus tech than I have a pallet for, makes interesting reading though.

At any rate, for a living thing to match the energy output of the mechanical thing it needs to eat, a lot. The fuel / food consumption doesn't drop much when they are not in use because they still metabolize, heck you need to provide some stable or pasture and have waste removal stuff. It is a stable of super horses against race cars. There is a reason we went to hard tech instead of selective breeding for our needs.

Really though, above all the biotech stuff it was the force resistance that killed it for me, that should have been an achillies heel to them and the need to unite and train Jedi to use it could have been the character drama. Then it would have been Zerg vs tech and that, lots of low quality stuff that is highly specialized, vs tech could have been cool, interactions between individuals and a really alien mind could have been awesome. I never read the cong books though, they lost me at biotech that was immune to the force and competitive, even better?, than the tech tech.

Mynocks Live in space can be in atmosphere and can fly in space. Star wars is science Fiction.

Yes, it is fiction, yes the physics are light, very light, still they were not a treat, they were an irritant. 1 shot kills. On thst note, Han's blaster had enough power to cause severe pain to a creature big enough to use the falcon as dental floss. Think about that and then scale up to the turbo lasers who were vaporizing those rocks in 1 shot. The falcon's shields were hit by a rock and the only damage was to Han's concentration.

I like the myriad aliens, the ylsamary from Thrawn series were a neat, limited foil to the power of the force. The YV are bio techno babble. It is a Star Trek villain in the wrong place. Star Wars stories should be character drama where the tech causes as many problems as it solves and no one says, "quantum sub space hexidecmal fluctuation" to solve the dilemma.

And nothing suggests tha^ metal ships flying through space are a good idea either. They need energy shielding while travelling at high speeds, power sources, basically everything you just listed, except they are manmade. Like biotech... Huh. Weird that they need the same things. Open up your mind a little. Our understanding of biology is incredibly limited. We know what life looks like on one planet. A fairly not-hostile planet by all measure. And yet life lives and thrives on every square foot of it. Even the most blasted sections. Now put a clearly intelligent hand bent on twisting that adaptability to the harshest environments.

That radiation you talk about. It's energy. Energy living creatures could use with modified photosynthesis, or by using specific bacteria as a layer of absorption. Or using force sensetivity in a focused way to make telekinetic shields(Obviously in Star Wars only). The list goes on.

Fiction should explore all those options and try to make creative ideas seem as real as possible. Bioships have been done. And done well. They should not break your suspension of disbelief unless they don't account for all the variables needed.(Say, they never explain how the bioship propels itself.) The Vong ships accounted for what was needed and were a cool idea. They didn't make up for the rest lf the Vong, but they were easily the best part of the Vong.

I'm curious, how did they move? Other than that, I have basically agreed with you that life possibly could be adapted to do all the things hard tech can do. You seem to be missing my points though. The ships use something called hyper matter, with a energy potential that makes anti-matter look like coal. They have outputs that by the tech manuals should put the falcon as something Borg cubes need to fear. Sourced from the guys on star destroyer.net who have put far more research into versus tech than I have a pallet for, makes interesting reading though.

At any rate, for a living thing to match the energy output of the mechanical thing it needs to eat, a lot. The fuel / food consumption doesn't drop much when they are not in use because they still metabolize, heck you need to provide some stable or pasture and have waste removal stuff. It is a stable of super horses against race cars. There is a reason we went to hard tech instead of selective breeding for our needs.

Really though, above all the biotech stuff it was the force resistance that killed it for me, that should have been an achillies heel to them and the need to unite and train Jedi to use it could have been the character drama. Then it would have been Zerg vs tech and that, lots of low quality stuff that is highly specialized, vs tech could have been cool, interactions between individuals and a really alien mind could have been awesome. I never read the cong books though, they lost me at biotech that was immune to the force and competitive, even better?, than the tech tech.

And I think they moved via manipulation of wormholes.(Also how they were shielded.) It was a cool idea, and at about the same level of scientific stupid as Hyper Matter. How they never used it to move around like the main character of Portal I will never know(but not complaining, as I wrote an entire sci-fo novel with a character who did just that... Works wonders for a fun action scene when the other guy is controlling the ships artificial gravity...)

Bending space time eh? I think that follows nievien's "Kzinti Law" a reaction drive is a weapon. I know it's not a reaction drive but it sounds like you could bypass shields with it. Did they ever explain the logistics of feeding the fleet?

..

The Vong completely turned me off the EU novels, so I never read most of the NJO. They were such blatant Kryptonite that it it just ruined the books for me. They came off as nothing more then a way for a lazy author's attempt to create a new super-villain that could defeat what were becoming stupidly overpowered heroes.

"The Jedi are so powerful, that we can't do much to stop them. So we'll make up a race that immune to the force..."

Now apparently they weren't completely immune to it, but like I said the whole concept of them turned me off the series so I never bothered reading the rest of it.

I agree, the Vong were a problem because of the obvious plot device with the obvious follow up they represented. For me this is usually a turning point in a story development from where on the writers struggle to invent plots to face the overdeveloped characters. In a single themed book series this is usually the sign, that the author didn't plan ahead and is adding another book just because they are selling. In a rich environment like Star Wars it probably the best idea to go back to an earlier point in the timeline.

Side note, this has nothing to do with the Vong using biotech. The same functional problems you could have had with an extragalactic enemy using relative standard tech, who accidentally/or intentionally had a shielding technology against the force. I actually have less problems with the biotech in the context of Star Wars. For one it gives an interesting storyline droid live vs artificial bitotech life and secondly Star Wars always has been more fantasy than straight up scifi and I think it could have a sensible place, if used right.

I don't really see why (from an in-universe standpoint) it makes no sense for them to be Force-resistant. Everything the characters knew up to the point of contact had been about their galaxy only. The SW galaxy seemed to be pretty behind us in terms of extragalactic astronomy, it doesn't seem like they had any knowledge at all about what, if anything, was out there. Likewise, they knew that, as far as their galaxy was concerned, the Force bound all life. Why should that be true everywhere? If we're going to accept that midichlorians exist (which I'd rather not), who says that they exist in other galaxies? If it's some sort of cosmic force, maybe it's unique to the energy signatures of this galaxy?

As a plot point, feel free to consider it tacky or unimaginative, I won't argue with you because that's just a matter of personal taste. But to say that it doesn't follow the rules of Star Wars isn't really fair, considering the limited scope that those rules encompass.

I don't really see why (from an in-universe standpoint) it makes no sense for them to be Force-resistant. Everything the characters knew up to the point of contact had been about their galaxy only. The SW galaxy seemed to be pretty behind us in terms of extragalactic astronomy, it doesn't seem like they had any knowledge at all about what, if anything, was out there. Likewise, they knew that, as far as their galaxy was concerned, the Force bound all life. Why should that be true everywhere? If we're going to accept that midichlorians exist (which I'd rather not), who says that they exist in other galaxies? If it's some sort of cosmic force, maybe it's unique to the energy signatures of this galaxy?

As a plot point, feel free to consider it tacky or unimaginative, I won't argue with you because that's just a matter of personal taste. But to say that it doesn't follow the rules of Star Wars isn't really fair, considering the limited scope that those rules encompass.

We know they like pain. We know they hate tech. Those could have played into their understanding of the force, maybe as a form of self inflicted cruciatus curse, radiating their pain to their enemies, mentally crippling them as they fought. It would explain and build on their masochism. That kind of thing.(But it would have also been disturbing as hell.)

I don't really see why (from an in-universe standpoint) it makes no sense for them to be Force-resistant.

It doesn't make sense for a life form to be resistant to something it's never experienced before. Look at all the cases of a people being extremely vulnerable to a disease from a different place, because they've never experienced it, thus have no resistance to it.

If the force doesn't exist in their galaxy then why would they have an resistance to it? More to the point, most of what the force does isn't really subject to resistance. Force Push or Choke for example are a form of telekinesis, how does someone become resistance to force being applied to them?

I don't really see why (from an in-universe standpoint) it makes no sense for them to be Force-resistant.

It doesn't make sense for a life form to be resistant to something it's never experienced before. Look at all the cases of a people being extremely vulnerable to a disease from a different place, because they've never experienced it, thus have no resistance to it.If the force doesn't exist in their galaxy then why would they have an resistance to it? More to the point, most of what the force does isn't really subject to resistance. Force Push or Choke for example are a form of telekinesis, how does someone become resistance to force being applied to them?

They weren't resistant to physical manifestations of the Force, such as Force Push, so they were still affected by that.

I don't really see why (from an in-universe standpoint) it makes no sense for them to be Force-resistant.

It doesn't make sense for a life form to be resistant to something it's never experienced before. Look at all the cases of a people being extremely vulnerable to a disease from a different place, because they've never experienced it, thus have no resistance to it.If the force doesn't exist in their galaxy then why would they have an resistance to it? More to the point, most of what the force does isn't really subject to resistance. Force Push or Choke for example are a form of telekinesis, how does someone become resistance to force being applied to them?

They weren't resistant to physical manifestations of the Force, such as Force Push, so they were still affected by that.

They weren't resistant to physical manifestations of the Force, such as Force Push, so they were still affected by that.

Ok, like I said I didn't read the NJO so I don't know what all they were resistant too.

...If we're going to accept that midichlorians exist (which I'd rather not), who says that they exist in other galaxies?

You put your finger on it right there, as far as I'm concerned.

As a plot point, feel free to consider it tacky or unimaginative, I won't argue with you because that's just a matter of personal taste. But to say that it doesn't follow the rules of Star Wars isn't really fair, considering the limited scope that those rules encompass.

From a broader perspective, I don't have a problem with the biotech (although I think the idea that an entire race has adopted masochism as an ethos is silly in any genre), and I don't have a problem with an extra-galactic enemy, and I don't even really have a problem with Force resistance. After all, the ysalamiri from the Thrawn trilogy were a version of the same idea.

My biggest problem is that the YV's Force resistance feels tacked-on; as I said upthread, they feel like a narrative device instead of a thoroughly realized addition to the universe. They're written as characters but they're actually procedural obstacles, and it wasn't enough to sustain my interest or my suspension of disbelief.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-06/bacteria-33000-feet

Felt this applied to an earlier part of the discussion. Life is awesome.