As for Jedi and the force. Here is my take. Most people who lived through the clone wars probably still blame the Jedi to some degree for the conflict. They might not buy the New Order line that the Jedi threatened to take over the government, but the Clone Wars were costly in both material and in a personal sense for many people. I would think if someone came across a person using the force they'd be concerned. If the person was old enough to have been in the Wars they probably would happily report them to the authorities. If the person was younger than that, they'd probably at least be concerned and shun them. I don't think anyone had forgotten the force, it was just better to ignore it, to pretend it didn't exist or that it was "evil". Let's look at terms used for Jedi or the force in A New Hope. Owen calls Obi Wan a "wizard" and General Motti mentions Vader's "sorcerer's ways". People remember they've just vilified the force and simplified anyone who uses it to be dealing with powers that are best left alone.

That's my take at least.

I can get behind this, the fact is that GL made a huge, dumb flub with the timeline. The Clone Wars needed to be recent enough in memory for Luke's dad and Obi-Wan to have been in them and for people to be aware of them, but old enough that the disappearance of the Jedi after them would seem like a long time ago. (Just like the failure to justify how Obi-Wan aged so much in 20 years, going from looking like a 30-something to a 70-something. But I guess being in th desert can do that to you, it's just always stuck out as incongruous to me).

I mean part of the mishandling is that the Clone Wars only lasted like 3 years, and the Jedi were pretty well-regarded before that. Imperial censorship and the "conspiracy proposition" that the Jedi were trying to overthrow the government aside, it's hard to believe people didn't remember them. It's been 100 years but we remember World War I participants better than Star Wars remembers the Jedi after < 20 years.

Yeah it was handled poorly, no doubt. Maybe I just put blinders on to it, but I just find a middle ground. While the Jedi had a good reputation for the most part prior to the Clone Wars, I also don't think many people had first hand experience with them. The galaxy is big, and from what I can tell few Jedi spent a lot of time in the outrim worlds, so it is possible that those areas never had the same conception of the Jedi as they did in the heart of the Republic.

Either way, though, I can't see the Jedi as "forgotten" in this period. I just take it as its a topic best not discussed. I have heard from Germans who grew up in Germany shortly after the Second World War that there was little talk about the Nazi period. Culturally it was just better not discussed. While not at all the same as the Clone Wars and the Jedi purge, I can see the same cultural "hushing" of the topic potentially happening.

When I was gming, I had a player, who lost interest, who wanted to play a force sensitive who inherited his father's lightsaber. I told him he could have the lightsaber for 10 obligation (since it was integral to his backstory, and this was THE character he wanted to play), however I warned him, if he used it (depending on the circumstances of course), that obligation would likely increase, and if it got high enough, he would attract the attention of the empire.

Yeah it was handled poorly, no doubt. Maybe I just put blinders on to it, but I just find a middle ground. While the Jedi had a good reputation for the most part prior to the Clone Wars, I also don't think many people had first hand experience with them. The galaxy is big, and from what I can tell few Jedi spent a lot of time in the outrim worlds, so it is possible that those areas never had the same conception of the Jedi as they did in the heart of the Republic.

Either way, though, I can't see the Jedi as "forgotten" in this period. I just take it as its a topic best not discussed. I have heard from Germans who grew up in Germany shortly after the Second World War that there was little talk about the Nazi period. Culturally it was just better not discussed. While not at all the same as the Clone Wars and the Jedi purge, I can see the same cultural "hushing" of the topic potentially happening.

Maybe, but in one of the Thrawn books we see Luke in a cantina in the outer rim and everyone there seems to know and respect the Jedi as mediators.

To some extent anyone 20 years old or younger probably doesn't really remember much about the clone wars, which is a fairly typical age for adventuring types, history is kind of written by the winners, in this case COMPNOR who makes sure at least in the more 'civilised' parts of the galaxy that the New Order is in place.

On the outer rim and more bumhole kinds of areas it'd be at least 'known about', to how much detail is really up for conjecture.

Which just leaves (not so) old buggers running around remembering stuff

Course, they don't really want to be making publications about it because that just gets people shot.

When I was gming, I had a player, who lost interest, who wanted to play a force sensitive who inherited his father's lightsaber. I told him he could have the lightsaber for 10 obligation (since it was integral to his backstory, and this was THE character he wanted to play), however I warned him, if he used it (depending on the circumstances of course), that obligation would likely increase, and if it got high enough, he would attract the attention of the empire.

I think that's a perfect approach. Using a lightsaber is going to attract attention. The first time might not get an hand sent after you, but do it enough and word is going to get out. And someone from the Empire is coming after you.

Yeah it was handled poorly, no doubt. Maybe I just put blinders on to it, but I just find a middle ground. While the Jedi had a good reputation for the most part prior to the Clone Wars, I also don't think many people had first hand experience with them. The galaxy is big, and from what I can tell few Jedi spent a lot of time in the outrim worlds, so it is possible that those areas never had the same conception of the Jedi as they did in the heart of the Republic.

Either way, though, I can't see the Jedi as "forgotten" in this period. I just take it as its a topic best not discussed. I have heard from Germans who grew up in Germany shortly after the Second World War that there was little talk about the Nazi period. Culturally it was just better not discussed. While not at all the same as the Clone Wars and the Jedi purge, I can see the same cultural "hushing" of the topic potentially happening.

Maybe, but in one of the Thrawn books we see Luke in a cantina in the outer rim and everyone there seems to know and respect the Jedi as mediators.

Well even though most people don't talk about it doesn't mean they all think badly about Jedi. Jedi and the force is a shunned topic to me at this time. For some because they have reservations about the Jedi role in the Clone Wars and for some because they know the repercussions of being a Jedi sympathizer.

On the topic of people not believing in the Force and the power of the Jedi even though the Clone Wars were only 20 years ago (a la Han Solo: "I've been from one side of this galaxy to the other and I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything"), this is how I view it:

There weren't that many Jedi during the waning years of the Galactic Republic. There were, what, probably a couple thousand? Compare that to how many sentient beings there are in the galaxy. What is the official number, like 100 quadrillion? The overwhelmingly vast majority of these beings had never seen a Jedi using the Force when the Galactic Republic was in power. They knew the Jedi Council existed, certainly, and I'm sure that they knew the official Republic stance that the Jedi are benevolent wizards, but they never saw any raw, hard evidence that the Force was real. Just what they learned in school. When the Republic turned into the Empire and the Jedi were demonized and exterminated, the New Order publicly stated that the Force was not real, and that it was a deceitful tactic used by the Jedi to manipulate the galaxy and have everyone believe that they have magical powers. The Empire spread the belief quickly and effectively that the Force wasn't real and never has been. Just a generations-old deception to maintain power. This would make a ton of sense to most of the rational beings in the galaxy who had never encountered a Jedi personally. The few (in comparison) who actually had would be drowned out by the quadrillions of voices calling the Jedi liars and tricksters. Galactic opinion could very quickly sway towards the mindset that the Force was just "a sad devotion to an ancient religion."

That's the way I look at it. Every now and then my players might stumble upon a haggard old spacer who claims that he was undeniably Force pushed 25 years ago, but this man is clearly a broken relic from the Old Days, still believing the delusions that the old government instilled in him. There's no reason to believe him, especially when 10,000 other people they meet say the Jedi weren't magical.

There are a bunch of them around because players – and GMs – want them. They don't (yet) have a game to scratch that particular itch, so they use this one.

And more power to those groups for including them. Fun > cannon, even badwrongfun.

I haven't introduced one yet as our game is on hiatus but because of the setting I'm planning on having the group get access to one or more only through an adventure. If a new (or current player) makes a character who is Force sensitive and works it into their background and takes some Obligation (10 seems fair) that Obligation will be the seed of an adventure where they either start with one or get it during, or maybe the group finds a Datacron with instructions on how to build one (again during an adventure), or finds a working one in some remote location (a Clone War battlefield or something like that). What I won't do is allow them to simply find a dealer and buy one, regardless of the Rarity rules. The only exception I'd be willing to make is a PC could find a dealer or the parts to make a replacement Lightsaber if their current one is lost or destroyed unless there is a cool adventure I could come up with to get a new one

I won't keep a PC from getting one, at least not for long, I just don't want it to be a few rolls to find Ye Olde Lightsaber Shoppe.

As for the OP's question are LSs easy to find? Well the PCs in my game aren't just regular folks, they are the stars of this universe and as such unlikely things will happen to and around them irrespective of other people's games. As much as some may think my having the PCs have to quest for their signature weapon may seem too restrictive it's certainly will have nothing at all to do with how other people run their games.

There are a bunch of them around because players – and GMs – want them. They don't (yet) have a game to scratch that particular itch, so they use this one.

And more power to those groups for including them. Fun > cannon, even badwrongfun.

Yep. Lightsabers are there simply because dude, Lightsabers.

I plan to give my players a limited option. I'm giving them a chance to get a lightsaber during a museum heist. An ancient lightsaber that still requires a strap on power pack giving it a high encumbrance value and a setback for the power cord. But still - Lightsaber!

!$/*@ing Chinese knock offs, they're everywhere!

Actually, it was mentioned in the very first novelization (Kenobi says something like "They're still quite present in some sectors") and was expanded upon in the Lords of the Expanse books, but the Lightfoil is more or less a cheap Chinese knockoff. Not quite as powerful as a real saber (and not quite as deadly to the user), they're still - more or less - lightsabers.

Also let's talk timeline. This is only about 20 years after O66. The idea that the Jedi are forgotten and ancient doesn't make sense. There were tons of Jedi, from systems all across the galaxy. People knew they existed. They were common enough for Rosie the Robot to recognize them based on their clothes in PM. The notion that everyone has forgotten is absurd. Citizens alive at the time of O66 are probably still alive in 0ABY. And don't give me that "Palpatine used the Force to lie to everyone ever about everything" bull. This is Star Wars, not Inception.

Well, Jedi aren't all that common. 10,000 members at the height of their power, amongst a galaxy of billions of worlds. People might have heard about them or seen their exploits on holo, but much like Bigfoot in the real world - nobody's actually ever seen him.

Also, Palpatine doesn't need the force to lie to the population. He just needs a massive propaganda machine actively suppressing the information and spreading disinformation. While it's an entirely different scale, look what a great smear job the SS did on the Jews? And that's just the resources of one country. Imagine a galaxy spanning hate group?

Plus there's the inherent fear and bigotry against Jedi in the general populace. The Empire just has to work with that and they're golden. Play up the baby snatching angle, the "They'll control your mind" angle and you're set.

I don't see why people think lightsabers = instant decapitation or otherwise cutting off body parts. Lightsabers were invented back in the Old Republic by non-Force users. Huge battles were fought by non-Force users wielding lightsabers. True, back in those days people had to carry around a giant backpack that fed power to the lightsaber hilt by a power cord, but massive amounts of non-Force users used lightsabers in fights apparently without cutting off most of their limbs. Is it a dangerous weapon? Sure. Does it require some practice? Sure. Are they going to cut your arm off 1/10th of the time? Nah.

This was the case before Episode 1. This may have changed. It's still canon to me, though.

Are they going to cut your arm off 1/10th of the time? Nah.

Agreed. A Despair result is only 1 in 12...

I'm gonna' have to agree with Dbuntu on this one: titty sprinkles.

I don't see why people think lightsabers = instant decapitation or otherwise cutting off body parts.

Because every time we see saber touch flesh, flesh loses?

Maul = cut in half

Anakin = Arm gone

Dooku = decapitated

Vader = legs and arms removed

Ponda Baba = arm gone

Vader = the one lone instance where someone being hit did not get an arm chopped off

Luke = hand chopped off

Vader = arm gone

Getting whacked in a limb means that limb is gone.

Vader lost a hand... but he already lost it.

I put lightsabers in front of my players when they had the option to raid and Imperial Museum, looking for a kidnapping target. Out of 12, 9 were obvious fakes, 2 were broken, and one still worked. It's allegedly Dooku's blade before he fell to the dark side, which may or may not be true depending on if you believe his curved lightsaber was built when he was a sith, or before.

...but then it was stolen by muppets and given to evil jedi David Bowie for fun and chaos. You think I'm kidding.

I've been playing for about 30 weeks and so far I've seen one. It was on the belt of some red-haired Imperial bint.

LOL, was she Hot?! And was her name, Cara or Shara or Dara or something

Are you thinking of Daala? The female admiral in the Maw Installation?

I don't remember her using a lightsaber, but you know how the EU is. Eventually ******* everyone is a Jedi and using lightsabers like it's goram afternoon tea or some ****.

The best part of this is just how much Daala would hate being mistaken for anyone even remotely related to the Jedi. She is quite possibly the single character in all of Star Wars who is most opposed to anything Force-related.

With the possible exception of a handful of Yuuzhan Vong, of course, but they can't really help that.

I don't see why people think lightsabers = instant decapitation or otherwise cutting off body parts.

Because every time we see saber touch flesh, flesh loses?

Maul = cut in half

Anakin = Arm gone

Dooku = decapitated

Vader = legs and arms removed

Ponda Baba = arm gone

Vader = the one lone instance where someone being hit did not get an arm chopped off

Luke = hand chopped off

Vader = arm gone

Getting whacked in a limb means that limb is gone.

You're suffering from PC bias -- the most interesting things always happen to protagonists and antagonists. Now, how many of those people cut their own limb off while using a lightsaber? None of them, nobody that we know of. How many people over millennia used lightsabers without cutting off a limb? Look at all the Old Republic soldiers who used a lightsaber without cutting off a limb before George Lucas decided to spit out the episodes 1-3 crap.

I don't see why people think lightsabers = instant decapitation or otherwise cutting off body parts.

Because every time we see saber touch flesh, flesh loses?

Maul = cut in half

Anakin = Arm gone

Dooku = decapitated

Vader = legs and arms removed

Ponda Baba = arm gone

Vader = the one lone instance where someone being hit did not get an arm chopped off

Luke = hand chopped off

Vader = arm gone

Getting whacked in a limb means that limb is gone.

heck just do a youtube search for morons with swords and you'll see that most people do not know how to coordinate bladed weapons and their limbs. Can someone learn? Yes of course. Would someone with martial arts training (eastern or western) be less likely to injure themselves? Yes. But even people who train with bladed weapons start training with wooden or plastic versions first. Heck didn't SWTOR even have Jedi/Sith players start with less "lethal" version of lightsabers to train with?

If a player in my game picked up a lightsaber and started acting like they were a Jedi master there would end up being problems. Now if they had a decent melee level and generally used something like a vibro-sword they'd probably be half way decent with the weapon, but other wise they just don't have the training to handle one without the chance of injury.

You're suffering from PC bias -- the most interesting things always happen to protagonists and antagonists. Now, how many of those people cut their own limb off while using a lightsaber? None of them, nobody that we know of. How many people over millennia used lightsabers without cutting off a limb? .

How many times do we see Chewie drop a deuce? None. Does that mean that Wookiees don't crap? No - it just means that it wasn't important to the story. We do see loads of evidence that lightsabers are dangerous and limbs go flying when they come out.

Also, I'll just leave this here:

Why are there so many sabers around for people to find? Look in the "for sale" section of the Anchorhead Gazette: For Sale Lightsaber, one owner, dropped once. All the Jedi that used to own them no longer have a need for them.

My feeling is that the prequels being focused so strongly on Jedi characters and the fate of the Jedi give us a vastly exaggerated view of how many Jedi there were and how important they were in general Galactic affairs.

If most Republic citizens never saw a Jedi it is quite possible that the ability to use the Force could be seen as similar to magic.

Why are there so many sabers around for people to find? Look in the "for sale" section of the Anchorhead Gazette: For Sale Lightsaber, one owner, dropped once. All the Jedi that used to own them no longer have a need for them.

I find this hilarious because thats how my Outlaw Tech found his, though it was in Mon Espa, not Anchorhead. He was looking for a cutting tool to get through blast doors and the D% die was very kind. Its now the business end of a device that he cobbled together as a breaching tool and/or precision cutting device. He is the only one of the crew who knows what it is, being a Clone Wars vet and all, but he constantly lied about when asked by the junk dealer and crew if he knew what it was. Oh of course he did, its a part of a high powered industial laser cutter that somehow got out of it's housing. He rolled pretty well on his deception rolls on that bit.

How many times do we see Chewie drop a deuce? None. Does that mean that Wookiees don't crap? No - it just means that it wasn't important to the story.

Please refrain from using the Chewbacca defense.

As for Jedi and the force. Here is my take. Most people who lived through the clone wars probably still blame the Jedi to some degree for the conflict. They might not buy the New Order line that the Jedi threatened to take over the government, but the Clone Wars were costly in both material and in a personal sense for many people. I would think if someone came across a person using the force they'd be concerned. If the person was old enough to have been in the Wars they probably would happily report them to the authorities. If the person was younger than that, they'd probably at least be concerned and shun them. I don't think anyone had forgotten the force, it was just better to ignore it, to pretend it didn't exist or that it was "evil". Let's look at terms used for Jedi or the force in A New Hope. Owen calls Obi Wan a "wizard" and General Motti mentions Vader's "sorcerer's ways". People remember they've just vilified the force and simplified anyone who uses it to be dealing with powers that are best left alone.

That's my take at least.

I can get behind this, the fact is that GL made a huge, dumb flub with the timeline. The Clone Wars needed to be recent enough in memory for Luke's dad and Obi-Wan to have been in them and for people to be aware of them, but old enough that the disappearance of the Jedi after them would seem like a long time ago. (Just like the failure to justify how Obi-Wan aged so much in 20 years, going from looking like a 30-something to a 70-something. But I guess being in th desert can do that to you, it's just always stuck out as incongruous to me).

I mean part of the mishandling is that the Clone Wars only lasted like 3 years, and the Jedi were pretty well-regarded before that. Imperial censorship and the "conspiracy proposition" that the Jedi were trying to overthrow the government aside, it's hard to believe people didn't remember them. It's been 100 years but we remember World War I participants better than Star Wars remembers the Jedi after < 20 years.

There are an estimated 100 *quadrillion* ssentient beings in the Star Wars galaxy, not counting droids. [1]

There were an estimated "several hundred thousand Jedi" at the height of the order, before the purge. [2]

I'll be generous, and place "several hundred thousand" at a full million.

That's 100,000,000,000,000,000 sentient beings vs. 1,000,000 Jedi

Or a ratio of approximately 100,000,000,000 : 1

Based on on that figure, with Earth's population of roughly 6,000,000,000, we'd be looking at a total population of approximately .006 Jedi. That's right, 6/1000 Jedi on Earth.

We'll assume that the Jedi Order is fairly famous. But, as an example, if you ask a random person on the streets of Bangladesh about Michael Jackson, how likely do you think you are to find someone who knows who you're talking about? That's 1 *very* famous person out of 6 billion, compared to 1 person who may be known by *association* with a group that hasn't existed for more than a decade out of 100 billion.

Also bear in mind that history is written by the winners. Nearly two decades after the Jedi Order was essentially wiped from the face of the galaxy, the Empire has spent quite a bit of its resources scrubbing the galaxy of Jedi-related information, or altering them to show the Jedi in a less-than-favorable light. Sure, the more famous the Jedi in question, the easier it will be to find information about them. But that works both ways. The Empire had an easier time finding that information, and has had far greater resources dedicated to their task than the virtually anyone else can manage. The stuff that didn't get found by the Empire is *WELL* hidden, and the people who know about it certainly aren't telling just anyone.

If you want an example of this in the real world, dig around for the story of a Luftwaffe fighter pilot who saved an Allied bomber crew by escorting their badly damaged and defenseless bomber back through Nazi-controlled airspace to safety. Sure, you've heard of the Luftwaffe, and maybe the skill of a few particularly famous pilots, but had you ever heard of *that* story before I mentioned it? And that was without a concerted effort to scrub the events from history, just a lack of active reporting at the time (because the Luftwaffe pilot would have gotten into *serious* trouble had his actions been discovered).

Lots of stuff happens during wars that people don't know about. Some is kept secret for tactical/strategic reasons, some is kept secret to keep people out of trouble, some is just not particularly story-worthy after the fact, so word of it never gets around.

[1] http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy

[2] http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Order

Lightsabers are so "common" in RPG's at the moment because DM's love to roll a lightsaber in the parties way, and see what will happen. It has nothing to do with how "rare" lightsabers are in univerce because each party has it's own sense of countiuity. Hence what happens in one session has no baring on the next session, and none of it will have any baring on the canon.

Often, it really doesn't matter whether or not you include a lightsaber in the grand scheme of things. Just I guess at some point people want to hand out one of the most iconic wepaons, regardless of what the canon would say. Probably because prequils gave the Jedi such a central role that people think they are common. Funny to think that Geninosis probably has around 50 to 100 discarded lightsabers of those that took place in the stupid fight in that ring.