I just had a question about players who run TIE swarms. I'm fairly new to the game and usually play Rebels (the friend who got me into it decided we should each pick a faction to maximize our buying power).

That being said, I have yet to go up against a TIE swarm, although I have seen a few in different BATREPS, and videos from Worlds etc..

My question is - what are the advantages to running your TIE's in a tight formation? It just seems counterintuitive to me. If all of your TIE's are bunched together, they just seem like they're ripe for an Assault Missile attack, or for a bomb to go off in their midst. I understand that you want to maximize your firepower by bringing as many guns to bear on your opponent, but this just seems like far too great an opportunity for your opponent to take advantage of. I understand running Howl with the group as well, and close in in order to maximize her ability, but again, this just seems like your asking to take a beat-down.

Would it not be better to set up your fleet in smaller groups so that you can come at your opponent from multiple angles? Rather than having six or eight TIE's clustered together just begging for an alpha assault missile strike, does it not make more sense to have 2 smaller groups of 3 or 4 fighters coming at your opponent from varying angles, to force him/her to make the awkward decision as to which mini-swarm is the bigger threat?

School me please!

Howlrunner is pretty much necessary to boost the effective firepower. If you see the end of a lot of swarm games, those two attack dice have a hard time doing damage and taking things out. Aside from that, it lets you focus fire effectively, and the tighter you fly the more of a chance you have to start the engagement on your terms. It also helps you turn though the gaps in the asteroids. At the moment it's often worth it to just take the hit from a single assault missile if you can drop a ship in the opening, but if you take evades you have a decent though by no means foolproof chance of just dodging the missile. This might change with the advent of Blount and more assault missiles, but I don't think anyone knows for sure yet.

One word. Or Name rather:

Howlrunner.

But basically, you should be able to navigate through the asteroids in a 2x4 formation relatively easily. Then you're all pointing in the same direction so you're not getting in your own way. And also, you prevent the opponent from K turning behind you, so you keep him in your sights.

Obviously these tactics should change a bit when there are assault missiles or bombs in play, but AM don't see a lot of play, and bombs are easy enough to avoid most of the time.

Note: I am not a swarm expert, so if someone that is contradicts what I said, take his/her advice.

Two basic reasons. First, concentrated firepower, especially with Howlrunner. Two, I've played in 4 store championships and have had 1 assault missile fired at me over 20 games. Disposable secondary weapons are very rare, so you don't need to plan around them.

Both Khyros and Penguin mentioned navigating through asteroids.. I don't understand how this is made easier by flying in formation.. It seems to me that if you're flying 2x3, or 3x3, and you turn into an asteroid field, that your outlying fighters are more apt to clip one.. maybe I'm just not seeing something. I guess it depends on the placement of the asteroids in the first place. We haven't used them a lot yet, although I imagine we will if we want to start getting into competitive play. I guess I'll have to try out some of the bootcamp suggestions I have seen here just to get the navigation part down to see exactly what you mean..

But back to the potential for leaving yourself open to splash damage from assault missiles or bombs. I just think that in a game of numbers (especially in a tournament or something) that potentially losing one or 2 ships because you fly them so close together just isn't worth the risk. The TIE's dial is definitely no slouch for maneuvers, so spreading out a bit further shouldn't be that difficult if you need to tighten back up again.

for example, if your formation looked like this -

H H H (and the space between them is range 1)

as opposed to this

H---> H <---H (with the space between being range 2)

The second formation allows the two outlying ships to barrel roll in towards the center, thus allowing them to take advantage of Howl's ability (Howl is Red BTW)

Doesn't that make more sense? TIE's have great maneuver dials (though admittedly not as great as Interceptors), and their ability to barrel roll should give them some flexibility that other ships just don't have when flying in formation.

I guess I need to start flying TIE's more often just to see if what I think is true is actually true..

Another element of tight formations is that it forces your opponent to turn away from you rather than flying through you. If your formation is large enough, your opponent won't be able to K-Turn past you - meaning they have a choice: either crash into the swarm, or turn away from it. Either you are getting free shots at your opponent of they lose their actions, and either is a win for the swarm.

Good swarm players have no problems navigating through the asteroid field as a general rule.

Your idea about the barrel roll approach assumes that the target is optimally placed in the center of Howlrunner's arc. One of the reasons for tightly grouping the fighters is that the arcs overlap more to help you hit targets that are not optimally in the center of the arc. In your example, if the target was at the left edge of Howlrunner's arc, the right fighter, even after the barrel roll, might not have the target in its arc.

Both Khyros and Penguin mentioned navigating through asteroids.. I don't understand how this is made easier by flying in formation..

One word solves this problem: practice. You MUST be fairly certain where every one of your ships will land after every possible maneuver. Spacing is a big thing, also. You MUST know how far apart to place your ships so that:

1. They don't bump. Bumping is fatal to TIEs, as well as increasing the danger of Asteroids. Likely, if one ship hits and your ships are bumping, multiple ships will hit the same asteroid. It is rarely an issue if one ship its an asteroid, but if you bump repeatedly, you risk multiple damage and multiple lost actions.

2. They stay within range of Howlrunner. If they are out of Range 1, then you are right, it is easier to separate them into smaller groups.

There are rules in place that govern asteroid proximity. They are there for this reason. Use them to your advantage. If you are playing a swarm, place your asteroids far apart with room to move. If you are playing against a swarm, place them close together, and keep your ships inside the asteroid field.

If you practice, it comes. A big help is to realize how your ships move in relation to eachother when you perform turns and banks. A wide formation becomes a long formation if you perform a hard turn. A bank turn keeps the ships in the wide/tall situation they were in before, but it is quite easy to bump corners if they are too close together. Also, the order of fire is very important, especially if you have ships with various pilot skills. For example, my favorite TIE swarm to run is all 6 named pilots. Start at the edge of the field, meaning at some point you will likely have to turn towards the opposite side. Place lower pilot skill pilots on front row on the the inside of the turn, and higher-skill pilots on the outside in the back row. This way, they turn in the easiest and least collision-likely order, and Howlrunner is safely at the back of your formation.

That's the easiest I can explain it without demonstrating it.

Engine - you mentioned rules governing placement.. I don't have my rules with me, but maybe you or someone else could give me an idea as to what you mean. From what I recall, each player places an asteroid, and back and forth until they are all placed. Are there rules for spacing of the asteroids??

Engine - you mentioned rules governing placement.. I don't have my rules with me, but maybe you or someone else could give me an idea as to what you mean. From what I recall, each player places an asteroid, and back and forth until they are all placed. Are there rules for spacing of the asteroids??

Asteroids cannot be placed within Range 1 of eachother or Range 2 of the sides of the table. It is easier to navigate a formation thru a big, less dense asteroid field than a field that is densely arranged. To ensure a light asteroid field, place yours at the corners of the allowed area (Range 2 from each edge). The best thing to do if he places his asteroids close together, is to make squares or right-angles with yours compared to his, with asteroids representing the corners of the shape. This will give you room to move thru them, and will limit his options when he places his next one.

However, like I mentioned in my previous post, you just need to practice placing and maneuvering your ships thru various situations. The fact that they are required to be at least 1 Range increment from eachother gives a long formation of TIE Fighters enough room to move easily between them 2-by-2. So, let's say, since most of your TIE swarm is likely PS1, your opponent probably deployed after you. He knows it is often unwise to joust with a TIE swarm, so he deploys at the opposite corner. If you make a hard turn around one asteroid, you will easily fit between any two that are on the table.

A smart player that has played against a lot of swarms will make triangles with his asteroids, however, meaning you will split between two asteroids and likely have to fly into one. In this situation, you make a hard turn followed by a bank turn. This is difficult to negotiate, but again just takes practice. And one fighter hitting a rock isn't crippling. Biggest thing is not bumping your own ships.

Deployment tip, place your front row as far forward as allowed (front edge of bases Range 1 from the table edge) and back row as far back as allowed (back edge of bases touching the table edge). Then, place your ships the width of one movement template apart. This allows 6 other TIE fighters to all be within Range 1 of Howlrunner, but you won't often bump one another when you move around.

You can also deliberately navigate thru the asteroid field to make use of the extra die provided by them for defense. That die helps you a lot more than it helps a Falcon.

Thanks. Now that you mention the placement details, it's all coming back to me. Like I said previously, we don't use them all that often, but now that you have reminded me, I can recall those rules..

Looks like I have a lot of flying to do, both with Imperials and my Rebel Scum to see if I can beat those 3720 to 1 odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field. I'll have to throw down maybe two sets of asteroids to make it as dense as possible, I like a challenge - and NEVER TELL ME THE ODDS!!

Good luck! Formation flying is one of the most rewarding parts of the game. I recommend trying different spacings, different offsets, etc. Also, I recommend writing ALL OF IT DOWN, as it will stick in your head more easily. There's more than one way to skina cat, so you might come up with a cool new way to fly in formation.

Yep, the formation flying is why I enjoy the swarms! So far at least I've been running a 2 width column 3 deep, which can usually turn in through a gap in the asteroids, though I'm still working on the finer points of that. There are lots of good videos and threads on formation flying to look through.

Thanks all. I'll give it a shot. Even though I only have the 3 TIE's at the moment, I can always throw some other ships in there just to try out some maneuvers using the TIE dials. I'll also try out the various Rebel ships and the Big Base ships to see how they maneuver through an asteroid field. I'm thinking of trying out a diamond formation with the TIE's to see how that plays out.. Who knows? Maybe I'll come over to the Dark Side yet..

H

H H

H H H

H H

H

I'll see how this fares.. I suppose it's no different that a 3x3 box formation turned on it's corner, so it should move much the same.

H

H H

H H H

H H

H

Howlrunner moves last. Someone may run into her from behind.

A major rule of thumb when flying in formation is keeping the Highest PS pilots in the back, or you will bump into each other. So, if you planned, in your diamond formation, to put Howlrunner in the middle, the 3 Tie in the back will collide with him since they move before him. The order of movement is critical.

Her. Not him. Howlrunner is a girl.

Also see here.

Ahh.. see! That's why I need you! Though, if they were offset, that shouldn't really happen. If Howl was dead center, the 2 TIE's behind her would move beside her. The major complication I guess here would be banks and turns..

Oh well - back to the drawing board.

Her. Not him. Howlrunner is a girl.

Also see here.

Stupid mistake, I know Howlrunner is a girl but never read a story with her, only know her from this game. So when I type fast, I tend to ignore her gender.

Carry on, nothing to see here.

As the others have mentioned, the formost reasons for the tight formation is:

- R1 to Howlrunner for all ships, otherwise you lose a lot of damage output, also protects her from the enemy by keeping her in the back (like a quarterback in [American] football)

- consolidated firing arcs for focus fire, a VERY critical aspect to the game

- playing 'chicken' in the joust, where a head-on collision is usually a win for the swarm (mainly action denial)

- consistent maneuvering, whereby you can ensure you don't collide with yourself to lose actions, and can fit through big enough gaps

Yes, there is a fear of assault missiles and bombs. However, I don't see the assaults that often, and even then I see half of them failing (4 red dice vs. 3 green with focus or evade). Thus why double actions, Jonus, etc. are really needed for them. So I don't fret that much. Bombs can also be avoided easily enough, and if you block the path, the bomber/firespray may just hit himself. We'll see what happens when Blount comes out.

I HIGHLY recommended reading the Movement 101 analysis that Piqsid put together back in Wave 1 and 2. It is very informative, and the diagrams are very clear. Gives points on how to move, as well as swarm formations, how to use them and how to counter. There have been some small evolutions with what people have done, but for the most part it's all still very relevant. Link: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/87723/movement

I really like formation flying in this game. Its really fun to figure out, practice with, and execute in the game. Plus I think a full wave of Ties bearing down on the rebel scum is very thematic, and looks pretty cool

Your idea about the barrel roll approach assumes that the target is optimally placed in the center of Howlrunner's arc. One of the reasons for tightly grouping the fighters is that the arcs overlap more to help you hit targets that are not optimally in the center of the arc. In your example, if the target was at the left edge of Howlrunner's arc, the right fighter, even after the barrel roll, might not have the target in its arc.

This also uses your action to barrel roll instead of focus. Odds are you won't be dodging an arc if you're spending your action to cuddle up next to howl. That guts your attack and defense.

Thanks Texx!! I hadn't seen the whole thing, so while I'd been doing the formation from p.22 and following I didn't realize you could fit it with a 5 forward before. That helps a lot!

On an odd formation flying note, I've really wanted to have my ships split around an asteroid and re-form with unequal banks, but never have the opportunity to actually use it in a match. Has anyone done that to good effect?

Thanks Texx!! I hadn't seen the whole thing, so while I'd been doing the formation from p.22 and following I didn't realize you could fit it with a 5 forward before. That helps a lot!

On an odd formation flying note, I've really wanted to have my ships split around an asteroid and re-form with unequal banks, but never have the opportunity to actually use it in a match. Has anyone done that to good effect?

I haven't used it to move around an asteroid per se, but I bet this strategy could be used to do so. A WWII buff that I introduced the game to told me about a formation strategy in which ships weave past eachother back and forth to spread out firing arcs. I tested it, and it unfortunately didn't help me too much because of the need to focus fire in this game, but it may help with asteroids. It takes three turns to reform into a formation.

Let's start with a "Tall" formation of TIE Fighters, like this one. The red H is Howlrunner, and the L and R represent the Left and Right sides of the formation with the top line being the front and the facing direction of all ships.

LH HR

H H

H H

I call this formation Tall, because it is 2 wide by 3 deep. This would likely be how your ships are arranged following a hard turn maneuver in which they'd have started 3 wide by 2 deep. On the next round, the ships perform a bank maneuver of at least Speed-2 to the opposite side (Left ships Bank Right, Right ships Bank Left) in row order, first row, second, then third. This arranges the ships at 45 degree angles from the original formation and 90 degrees from eachother, each side facing away from the other side, toward the outside of the formation. The next turn, the ships perform hard turns in the opposite direction, at the same speed in the same order. Then, they are still arranged at 45 degrees compared to the original formation, but are now facing towards the center. The last move, they perform a bank maneuver again at the same speed, opposite of the last. This will get the ships very close or exactyly back in the formation in which they started.

To summarize, I will use one ship to demonstrate the process more succinctly. The Front Left ship of the formation takes a 3-speed Bank Right. He will land on the right side of the formation. Other ships follow suit. Next turn, 3-speed Turn Left, turning him towards the center. Other ships follow. The last turn, 3-speed Bank Left again. All ships that start on the left perform the same maneuvers as the original front left ship, all ships that start on the right perform the same maneuvers as the original front right ship.

I recomment the 3 speed because I bet it will be the best at splitting across the asteroids.

I tried it several ways, and the only way to get them back into the original column is to take a minimum of 3 turns.

You're playing with a lot of points if you have Howlrunner surrounded by EIGHT TIE Fighters. At that point you probably should be branching out because trying to maintain a tight formation around a single, higher PS, ship may prove to be nearly impossible.

H

H H

H H H

H H

H

Howlrunner moves last. Someone may run into her from behind.

The game will never allow you to get into this formation.