I imagine those guys have a few ranks of the skill, if they're using them in combat. If they had 3 ranks (not too extreme), they'd have to roll 6 Threat to burn themselves (which become less and less likely as their skill improves).

I imagine those guys have a few ranks of the skill, if they're using them in combat. If they had 3 ranks (not too extreme), they'd have to roll 6 Threat to burn themselves (which become less and less likely as their skill improves).

They would need to start at rank 1 to get to rank 3 in the first place...

It's a rather harsh penalty to prevent people from using laser swords in a setting with jetpacks and sniper rifles.

But if you're dead set on doubling down on an idea that has no basis in canon, go for it.

Dangerous: For each rank in this quality, upgrade the difficulty of the action. This quality is no longer in effect if you have ranks in the appropriate weapon skill.

A lightsaber could have the Dangerous 2 quality.

Dangerous: For each rank in this quality, upgrade the difficulty of the action. This quality is no longer in effect if you have ranks in the appropriate talent.

A lightsaber could have the Dangerous 2 quality.

Did you mean ranks in the appropriate Skill, or are you planning on requiring a Talent to use lightsabers?

Dangerous: For each rank in this quality, upgrade the difficulty of the action. This quality is no longer in effect if you have ranks in the appropriate talent.

A lightsaber could have the Dangerous 2 quality.

Did you mean ranks in the appropriate Skill, or are you planning on requiring a Talent to use lightsabers?

It was supposed to say skill but I had a brain fart. Thanks. Fixed it.

Skill: Lightsaber

Unless the character with this skill has a Force Rating, any roll netting 3 Threat or 1 Despair converts those symbols into a Lightsaber strike against the wielder (doing 1/2 base damage only).

Each Rank in this Skill allows the character to convert 1 Threat into Strain damage before the above rule is taken into account, if they choose to.

Seems overly harsh, since we see non-force wielders wielding lightsabers as well as swords in the TCW in several episodes.

Lookup Pre Viszla, or Quinlon Vos and Obiwan vs Cad Bane at the very end.

Just lookup that Skywalker kid. He used a lightsaber untrained and blindfolded.

TCW is not a really good source of canon. Just because it was done in TCW does not mean it could be done in the movies. I could name numerous scenes in TCW that would never happen in the movies. Deflecting blaster bolts with a staff would be one. Besides a lot of the lightsaber fights were briefly interrupted with close ups of the duelers locking blades and grimacing at eachother

Even Grievious was using a more brute force approach to using his lightsabers. Doing the same strike with up to 4 blades, or twirling them around like a blender.

I imagine those guys have a few ranks of the skill, if they're using them in combat. If they had 3 ranks (not too extreme), they'd have to roll 6 Threat to burn themselves (which become less and less likely as their skill improves).

They would need to start at rank 1 to get to rank 3 in the first place...

It's a rather harsh penalty to prevent people from using laser swords in a setting with jetpacks and sniper rifles.

But if you're dead set on doubling down on an idea that has no basis in canon, go for it.

I'm not doubling down on anything. Doc stated there was currently no way - with the die symbols we have - of representing that use of lightsabers without training or the Force is dangerous. All I was doing was offering a possible solution.

I don't know how much EU you and your group consider canon, but even Jedi start off with practise 'sabers so as not to hack off their tender bits.

The vast majority of chaps we see using a lightsaber as a weapon are also Force Sensitive. I don't think that's a coincidence, a weapon as effective as a lightsaber would be more popular... unless there's a reason only fools and experts wield them.

I imagine those guys have a few ranks of the skill, if they're using them in combat. If they had 3 ranks (not too extreme), they'd have to roll 6 Threat to burn themselves (which become less and less likely as their skill improves).

They would need to start at rank 1 to get to rank 3 in the first place...

It's a rather harsh penalty to prevent people from using laser swords in a setting with jetpacks and sniper rifles.

But if you're dead set on doubling down on an idea that has no basis in canon, go for it.

I'm not doubling down on anything. Doc stated there was currently no way - with the die symbols we have - of representing that use of lightsabers without training or the Force is dangerous. All I was doing was offering a possible solution.

I don't know how much EU you and your group consider canon, but even Jedi start off with practise 'sabers so as not to hack off their tender bits.

The vast majority of chaps we see using a lightsaber as a weapon are also Force Sensitive. I don't think that's a coincidence, a weapon as effective as a lightsaber would be more popular... unless there's a reason only fools and experts wield them.

Yes, the Jedi start with training sabers. Maybe because it's possibly a bad idea to put a live weapon in the hands of a four year old.

Depends where you live, really.

Wow, I'm kinda bleak today.

Well, I imagine they don't put vibroaxes and vibroswords into the hands of complete novices either. They don't even put regular swords into the hands of novices.. Most training with a deadly weapon starts with something much less deadly.

The vast majority of chaps we see using a lightsaber as a weapon are also Force Sensitive. I don't think that's a coincidence, a weapon as effective as a lightsaber would be more popular... unless there's a reason only fools and experts wield them.

This is my opinion as well. Deflecting blaster bolts and being able to get up on a target and swiss cheese them would be very useful and if it was something simple training absent the Force could accomplish far more beings would use Lightsabers. In regards to using canon to prove anything about Lightsabers, canon is wildly contradictory. Pre Vizla uses the Dark Saber, Han slices open a Taun Taun and yet we learn in TCW Jedi use the Force to assemble their sabers and its the crystal they use to focus the Force that makes the blade. What does that all mean? Technically I don't know, literally I think it means only Force users build them and realistically only Force users can properly wield them.

I have always maintained the lightsabers are tech. The reason no one remembers how to build them is because the crystals are fairly rare, and blasters are so common that bringing a knife to a gunfight is the realm of the badass or suicidal. Unless you have the Force.

And I highly doubt many people outside of the Jedi and Sith care enough to know how to home cook the needed crystals.

TCW is not a really good source of canon. Just because it was done in TCW does not mean it could be done in the movies. I could name numerous scenes in TCW that would never happen in the movies.

Uhm. Wow.

TCW is canon. This is established fact.

If you disagree than we live in totally different worlds. We have no business talking to each other. At this point we're on completely different foundations of thought, we may as well be a Republican and a Democrat arguing about climate change. I'm not going to talk about that here.

As for lightsabers being dangerous to the user...this really isn't necessary. There's a reason why a 'dangerous' attribute wasn't added to the weapon.

We don't force players to do checks for gun maintenance either, despite the fact that most gun deaths in the US come from misfiring and lack of muzzle discipline. Guns are FAR more dangerous weapons that swords or even chainsaws to use and take care of, and are more than capable of blowing up in your hand. You could get hot lead in your eye, burns from a barrel, deafness from the report, heck, even getting pinched by a slide. In this, a lightsaber is NOT more dangerous than a gun. Guns are far less predictable. Lightsabers only turn on and off. A gun could very well not fire when you pull the trigger, and suddenly you have a very dangerous situation as to live ammunition being primed in a barrel, and how to get it out.

I imagine blasters being full of explosive gas, are even more dangerous. We could have ALL kinds of rules for misfires and accidents for maintaining blasters, slugthrowers, or whatever, but we don't, because it's ridiculous minutia that's just really not important to the story.

Is using a gun without training dangerous? Yes, extraordinarily so. Yet there are no rules that cover this area either.

There really aren't any references to lightsabers 'turning' against their users in the movies or the EU, and the only lightsaber combat accident in the EU is Tenel Ka losing her arm in an overenthusiastic live practice duel.

Let's stop pretending here, the idea of a lightsaber being 'really dangerous' to the wielder more so than any other weapon, stems from the old WEG lightsaber combat rules. Now if that's how you want to play the game, fine. But this is just an instance of saying 'no' to the players and being an adversarial GM. It's not particularly fair to penalize people who wield lightsabers without the Force anymore than it is to penalize ranged weapon users without training..the lack of rolling well is a penalty enough.

Multiple canon sources have been quoted in this thread, EU, TCW and the original trilogy. If you're going to argue in the face of concrete video evidence...then I don't know. It becomes more an issue about personality than rather than veracity.

And in the case of Tenal Ka, it was a faulty lightsaber on her end that malfunctioned, which caused her opponent to injure her.

Let's stop pretending here, the idea of a lightsaber being 'really dangerous' to the wielder more so than any other weapon, stems from the old WEG lightsaber combat rules.

I've never even read that rule book. Yet I think it's entirely reasonable to say that a lightsabre is inherently dangerous to the inexpert user in a way that most weapons are not. It's a long blade that is fantastically light and every "edge" of it is a searing plasma. It's (normally) one-handed too, which gives you even less control!

Seriously, you talk about how a badly maintained gun could blow up. Well maybe that's so (not an expert on guns), but I don't think that's a likely outcome everytime someone who has not used a gun before picks one up. I've clocked myself on the head hard enough as a kid just picking up some nunchucks. The equivalent inexperience with a lightsabre would have cut my head in half.

I don't think anyone is "pretending", so if anything should stop it's the implications that the rest of us are faking our opinions. There are all sorts of things you can do wrong with a firearm, down to breaking your nose with a shotgun by not bracing it properly. Accidents aren't that hard. But at least the basic principle is point it away from you and pull a trigger. Lack of skill typically results in missing your opponent, not flicking it slightly too far and removing your off-hand.

I would be inclined to suggest that you go and practice actual fighting with a long-blade such as a katana, but I fear your dismissal of how easy it is to cut yourself would lead to injury.

I would be inclined to suggest that you go and practice actual fighting with a long-blade such as a katana, but I fear your dismissal of how easy it is to cut yourself would lead to injury.

I spent 16 years studying martial arts. We trained in kenjutsu as well as iaijutsu just for sword work. For the first three years I was required to use a bokken (wooden practice sword).

Here is how I approach the whole thing. In ESB was see Han use the lightsaber to cut open a tantaun. We never see him attempt to wield a lightsaber to block blaster bolts and fire off his own blaster. Can a non-jedi use a lightsaber? Sure, but the less training they have in melee weapons the more dangerous they become to themselves. Using a lightsaber to cut something open should be a simple unchallenged roll. Doing something more complex is another story.

Why not have these rules for all melee weapons, then? If "mundane" weapons are dangerous, then what about vibro-weapons.

Why not have these rules for all melee weapons, then? If "mundane" weapons are dangerous, then what about vibro-weapons.

Well if a player in my group tried to wield a vibro-sword while firing his blaster pistol I probably would add that rule in for it. Likewise if I had a player with very little ability in melee who tried to do something complicated with a vibro-axe I'd probably have a chance for them to hurt themselves doing so.

I'm a firm believer in the Indestructable-Teenager mindset for any sort of tabletop RPG: Self-inflicted, Darwin Award nominating exploits of critical failure such as slicing off your own arm with a vibrosword, shooting your own foot with a blaster, and auto-decapitation via lightsaber are awful, horrible, terribad things that happen... to other people. Not to the stars, the main title characters of the story.

You shouldn't have to play a game of Russian roulette in every round of combat. The PCs are extraordinary heroes , not mundane idiots .

I think my PCs tend to run the gamut from mundane heroes to extraordinary idiots.

I think my PCs tend to run the gamut from mundane heroes to extraordinary idiots.

Mine run the gamut from extraordinary idiots to extraordinary idiots.

I'm a firm believer in the Indestructable-Teenager mindset for any sort of tabletop RPG: Self-inflicted, Darwin Award nominating exploits of critical failure such as slicing off your own arm with a vibrosword, shooting your own foot with a blaster, and auto-decapitation via lightsaber are awful, horrible, terribad things that happen... to other people. Not to the stars, the main title characters of the story.

You shouldn't have to play a game of Russian roulette in every round of combat. The PCs are extraordinary heroes , not mundane idiots .

I think there needs to be a balance point though. If you remove too many threats of consequence from the PCs, then a lot of the tension dissolves as there's no uncertainty as to "will we survive this risky plan of action?" Without that tension, it won't take long before a campaign looks more like an episode of Jackass or something out of a TV comedy sketch.

I agree that the PCs, being heroes, are going to be far more capable than the average person, but neither are they superheroes. The trick is finding where the balance point is for your group.

I'm a firm believer in the Indestructable-Teenager mindset for any sort of tabletop RPG: Self-inflicted, Darwin Award nominating exploits of critical failure such as slicing off your own arm with a vibrosword, shooting your own foot with a blaster, and auto-decapitation via lightsaber are awful, horrible, terribad things that happen... to other people. Not to the stars, the main title characters of the story.

You shouldn't have to play a game of Russian roulette in every round of combat. The PCs are extraordinary heroes , not mundane idiots .

I think there needs to be a balance point though. If you remove too many threats of consequence from the PCs, then a lot of the tension dissolves as there's no uncertainty as to "will we survive this risky plan of action?" Without that tension, it won't take long before a campaign looks more like an episode of Jackass or something out of a TV comedy sketch.

I agree that the PCs, being heroes, are going to be far more capable than the average person, but neither are they superheroes. The trick is finding where the balance point is for your group.

Oh, I agree. That's why I used the examples that I did in my post. If a player chooses to have their PC parkour from rooftop to rooftop, you can bet that there will be some red dice thrown in there with the real threat of bodily harm. They shouldn't be shielded from failure from the extraordinary circumstances that heroes are often thrust into.

My point is that every weapon that a PC could bring to bear in any given combat is deadly (or at the very least harmful) but unless everyone in the game is in agreement, those weapons should probably only be harmful, again, just to other people. You don't need ranked skills or talents to prevent shooting your own foot with a blaster, slicing your legs off with a vibrosword or lightsaber, or blowing a hole in your own ship's hull with a turret-mounted laser. No one wants to suck for sucky reasons.

Then again, that might be a hilariously fun game to play for a little while.

PC: (in character) Sigh. I can't believe this. (facepalms)

GM: Roll a Brawl check with simple difficulty since you make no effort to not touch yourself.

PC: Huh? (rolls) Four success, two advantage, and a triumph.

GM: You activate stun and take three strain—

PC: (interrupting) Hey! Oh! Crap! Ha ha ha! Do I crit?

Everybody: (laughs out loud)

That last post reminded me of some of the worst parts of Rolemaster's fumble range and critical hit interactions (not to mention badly failed Move Maneuver checks). So easy to kill yourself without trying to do so.