I like many, if not most, of you spend an enormous amount of my spare time brainstorming lists for X-wing. And I have to say, when working on tournament lists I always get to a point where I’m a little disappointed. After trying all sorts of upgrades and ideas I keep coming back to what I read on these forums. “If your list cannot handle a Tie swarm or a BBXX list it isn’t competitive”. It is almost always the same when building a tournament list. Ditch the upgrades and include another ship.

So, this made me start wondering why a side deck is not allowed in X-wing. If I could include those few extra upgrades that would allow me to change my list slightly depending on what I was facing it would make so many more lists competitive in the tournament setting. It would also make some of the “casual play” upgrade cards have some value in the tournaments.

Tournament matches would still have 100 point limits, but if you could bring an extra 10-15 points of ships / upgrades to the tournament and make changes between matches how do you think it would affect the current meta? Would new lists become competitive?

The biggest thing this would aid would be bomber lists. And PS4 ships. If going against a swarm, drop them down to blues/rookies + FCS or whatever. And it would hurt swarms since you would always grab assault missiles against them. I still don't think you'd see any variation from the top builds because they're top builds because they can handle anything thrown at them. Ergo, they won't have much that they want to change out.

So, this made me start wondering why a side deck is not allowed in X-wing.

I'd like to see something like that, even if it was just for upgrades and not being able to add/remove a whole ship.

But being able to upgrade/downgrade your pilots could be a fun addition as well.

I'd do something where you get to bring 140pts worth of stuff to the tournament, but for any single match, you can only field up to 100pts.

But this idea goes against a core rule of the game. Lists are not to be built against another list, nor are they to be kept secret. It is your best 100 point fleet versus mine. No surprises, and no re-tooling. You play with what you brought, and only that. It is a part of the charm of the game. Changing this would put a knife into "fly casual" and put us all one step closer to Magic the Gathering.

So, you should be allowed to change based on what you were facing. Then so should your opponent. This could result in both players altering their lists and then face something they still didn't adjust for.

Side-decks encourage min/maxing rather than developing all-comers lists. They would slow down tournaments and ultimately, if both sides are tweaking, what are you really adjusting to? What you think your opponent will have once they change? I don't think it really helps in the same way that Magic, for example, features strong counters to specific colors or actions. Additionally, if they are working hard towards "balance," this undercuts the idea that 100 pts vs 100 pts is, in general, are even and that skill (and luck) will decide.

But this idea goes against a core rule of the game. Lists are not to be built against another list, nor are they to be kept secret. It is your best 100 point fleet versus mine. No surprises, and no re-tooling. You play with what you brought, and only that. It is a part of the charm of the game. Changing this would put a knife into "fly casual" and put us all one step closer to Magic the Gathering.

And one step close to Magic the Gathering would vastly increase the smell of the players. I would like to think we as X-Wing players appreciate the merits of good hygiene.

Nobody has said 100 points vs 100 points is even. Builds have counters. Having the ability to sideboard in things on a build only increases build diversity. It would be a good thing for the game, and allow for some fun innitiative gambling.

That said, the point system is X-wing does not work well for sideboarding. Point systems generally don't. What I can see is having alternate card sets for each of you ships. It would really benefit bombers and ships debating between Gunner against Tie-Swarms and Recon Spec against low agility lists where they need an initiative bid.

Nobody has said 100 points vs 100 points is even. Builds have counters. Having the ability to sideboard in things on a build only increases build diversity. It would be a good thing for the game, and allow for some fun innitiative gambling.

That said, the point system is X-wing does not work well for sideboarding. Point systems generally don't. What I can see is having alternate card sets for each of you ships. It would really benefit bombers and ships debating between Gunner against Tie-Swarms and Recon Spec against low agility lists where they need an initiative bid.

I think A LOT of people have said, and believe, that ANY 100 point squad is equal to any other 100 point squad. Equal in the since that any squad of equal value has a chance to win. Are there certain upgrades that can be countered by other ships and upgrades? Yes. Can a fleet be built that totally shuts down another fleet? No. Not in this game. Magic, yes.

If I started a "like this post if you agree with me" poll, I'm willing to bet the number of likes would be embarrassingly high.

Nobody has said 100 points vs 100 points is even. Builds have counters. Having the ability to sideboard in things on a build only increases build diversity. It would be a good thing for the game, and allow for some fun innitiative gambling.

That said, the point system is X-wing does not work well for sideboarding. Point systems generally don't. What I can see is having alternate card sets for each of you ships. It would really benefit bombers and ships debating between Gunner against Tie-Swarms and Recon Spec against low agility lists where they need an initiative bid.

I think A LOT of people have said, and believe, that ANY 100 point squad is equal to any other 100 point squad. Equal in the since that any squad of equal value has a chance to win. Are there certain upgrades that can be countered by other ships and upgrades? Yes. Can a fleet be built that totally shuts down another fleet? No. Not in this game. Magic, yes.

If I started a "like this post if you agree with me" poll, I'm willing to bet the number of likes would be embarrassingly high.

I don't know. I mean, yes, any build can beat any build officially because there's an element of luck to the game. And there are no rules about what you can attack / what can attack you as there are in Magic. Plus, Magic has thousands of cards. And I'm only talking about the currently legal cards. Whereas X wing only has 12 ships... Sure, they have some differing abilities. And the only interaction dealing with actually doing damage is dark curse vs. blaster turret. Everyone else can shoot everything else without issue.

Then they fundamentally misunderstand the game. Certain ships counter other ships. If I throw 3 Interceptors at Han Shot first I will lose. If I try a squad with too much paper and not enough plastic I will lose. Every player playing this game knows these things. If they didn't they would just throw 100 points worth of stuff together on Random generators and try to win. Instead we see build patterns and optimal combos. We see a whole lot of 100 point lists that stomp all over other hundred point lists. We talk strategy. Because build design matters. And it matters a lot.

Then they fundamentally misunderstand the game. Certain ships counter other ships. If I throw 3 Interceptors at Han Shot first I will lose. If I try a squad with too much paper and not enough plastic I will lose. Every player playing this game knows these things. If they didn't they would just throw 100 points worth of stuff together on Random generators and try to win. Instead we see build patterns and optimal combos. We see a whole lot of 100 point lists that stomp all over other hundred point lists. We talk strategy. Because build design matters. And it matters a lot.

I currently am 4 and 0 against HSF with a 3 interceptor only build.

Nobody has said 100 points vs 100 points is even. Builds have counters. Having the ability to sideboard in things on a build only increases build diversity. It would be a good thing for the game, and allow for some fun innitiative gambling.

That said, the point system is X-wing does not work well for sideboarding. Point systems generally don't. What I can see is having alternate card sets for each of you ships. It would really benefit bombers and ships debating between Gunner against Tie-Swarms and Recon Spec against low agility lists where they need an initiative bid.

I think A LOT of people have said, and believe, that ANY 100 point squad is equal to any other 100 point squad. Equal in the since that any squad of equal value has a chance to win. Are there certain upgrades that can be countered by other ships and upgrades? Yes. Can a fleet be built that totally shuts down another fleet? No. Not in this game. Magic, yes.

If I started a "like this post if you agree with me" poll, I'm willing to bet the number of likes would be embarrassingly high.

I don't know. I mean, yes, any build can beat any build officially because there's an element of luck to the game. And there are no rules about what you can attack / what can attack you as there are in Magic. Plus, Magic has thousands of cards. And I'm only talking about the currently legal cards. Whereas X wing only has 12 ships... Sure, they have some differing abilities. And the only interaction dealing with actually doing damage is dark curse vs. blaster turret. Everyone else can shoot everything else without issue.

The truth of the game is, all 100 point squads are equal; the players who use them are not.

(and yes, luck can sometimes be a cruel mistress.)

Stone - we've seen some of your games that you've posted here. I'm not going to comment on your skills, but the skills of your opponents are far from high. Especially since they don't even run with asteroids normally. Plus, your dice always seem to be hot... Like someone else I know *grrrrrrr*... So no offense, but when you post that you're 4-0 with 3 interceptors vs. HSF, I don't put any weight behind that.

That said, no one should be running 3 interceptors anyways... 3 Alphas = 54 points. So that means you're running 46 points of upgrades. Just. No.

The truth of the game is, all 100 point squads are equal; the players who use them are not.

(and yes, luck can sometimes be a cruel mistress.)

With the exception of the Rebel Operative x 6 squad.

Also true. Players are different. But not all 100 point builds are equal and claiming so is patently false. There are and always will be counterbuilds. There are and always will be better and worse players as well. But 100 points of Tie Advanced does not equal 100 points of X-wings. 100 points of A-wings does not equal 100 points of Falcons. That list goes on and on and on. Or are you insinuating that only bad players would lose reliably with a squad full of Tie Advanced.

There is an element of skill and knowledge to building a squad. Not as much as I would personally like(I find that the game favors plastic over paper too much for amusing tricks like Defensive Ibtisam to be efficient.) but it still favors efficient build habits.

Stone - we've seen some of your games that you've posted here. I'm not going to comment on your skills, but the skills of your opponents are far from high. Especially since they don't even run with asteroids normally. Plus, your dice always seem to be hot... Like someone else I know *grrrrrrr*... So no offense, but when you post that you're 4-0 with 3 interceptors vs. HSF, I don't put any weight behind that.

That said, no one should be running 3 interceptors anyways... 3 Alphas = 54 points. So that means you're running 46 points of upgrades. Just. No.

Don't judge all of my competition by my friendly house games. lol

Here's the list Khyros. Run it yourself your next game:

Soontir+PtL+TC

Jax+PtL+Hull+Shield

Royal+PtL+Hull+Shield.

The shield upgrades can be swapped out for stealth as well.

My plan (as soon as the Aces are legal) is to play:

Soontir+PtL+TC

Jax+PtL

Royal+PtL

Academy (Giving up durability for a blocker)

Haven't tested this build yet though.

I don't think sidebars would be something you should see for the standard tournament setting, but it could be a fun alternative setting, or something you see in friendly games.

That said, no one should be running 3 interceptors anyways... 3 Alphas = 54 points. So that means you're running 46 points of upgrades. Just. No.

OP, a side bar for armaments might be interesting, but not really a fan of the overall idea myself. I did run a tournament in Warhammer Fantasy where players brought 3 lists for three games. They could all be the same or different as long as they were from the same army book. Players placed their lists down at the same time after reading the scenario and knowing what army (though not list) they were facing. It worked very well there, but it's not as practical in a game like Xwing where there aren't scenarios and there are only two factions.

An interesting idea that is fatally flawed.

This is not a game where you would switch things up right before a fight. You send your ships out "on patrol" and they encounter an enemy and they fight with what they were sent out with. Any "sideboarding" you are going to do is going to happen before you even send out your first ship.

Speaking about Sideboards unless I'm mistaken in a MtG tournament players ALWAYS start with EXACTLY the same deck. That is to say you build your deck and that is always what you must play the first game. It is after that first game where the "sideboard" comes as MtG tournament are done "best 2 out of 3" so sideboards may get used for two games. NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE? In X-Wing the "winner" is determined in ONE battle instead of happening over the course of three battles.

I mean there is no good way to implement them into X-Wing and really no "fair" way to do it either. If you say there is a "10 point sideboard" there are so many changes that could be made by shifting 10 points in a squadron to something else. I mean you want it so you can trade your Cluster Missiles for Assault Missiles but should that be any different from pulling my Rookie Pilot out of an X-Wing and setting Biggs down in the seat instead? It's still the same "fighter" but I've just changed how it is equiped.

I'm against side-boarding but as a Modification or Pilot ability it really opens up design space!

Sensor Upgrade:

Advanced Intelligence Transmission- You may swap (x) modification points for (y) modification points.

General _________:

Shuttle

PS 8

32pts

"After revealing your squad, but before deployment you may remove up to 15pts from your Squad. You may then add back 12pts"

Crew:

Advanced Reconnaissance Agent-You may swap all modifications of one kind in your squad for the same number of modifications of a different kind. You must swap all of the same named modifications and may only swap in modifications of the same name. For Example: no swapping out 3 stealth devices for 2 hull upgrades and 1 advanced sensors.

-----

Not perfect by any means but fun.

It would be nice to be able to swap missiles. That's personally the only way I see it really being usable. And could give ordnance as a tactic a much needed boost.

First thoughts on reading through this thread:

It's absolutely absurd to say that all 100 point lists are balanced. Please try to run 100 points of hawks without any turrets vs any standard list. You will immediately admit that your reasoning is ridiculous.

And I think that a sideboard would be a really good way to make upgrades more enticing.

At the moment, it is generally accepted that more ships is better than upgraded ships.

So a good way to improve upgrades would be to allow some flexibility in their use.

First thoughts on reading through this thread:

It's absolutely absurd to say that all 100 point lists are balanced. Please try to run 100 points of hawks without any turrets vs any standard list. You will immediately admit that your reasoning is ridiculous.

If you are wild enough to run that, logic says your opponent is just as likely to run the same thing(or at least spot you ~30pts for funzies) Balance is achieved!

The ability to sideboard will shift balance significantly - there are upgrades and pilots that are now cheap and situational, if we have the option to sideboard those will become just cheap.

Bombers will be pretty sweet (switching between assault and cluster missiles between games!!). Y-Wings will also benefit greatly from their versatility (turrets, torps, astromechs...).

If there is ever such a rule change, it'd better be for upgrades only and limited to some small number of points like 10 or so.