I think Eviscerators work wonders in enclosed battle areas like cities, hives, starships (people seem to forget those) and trenches. Not every encounter is on a plain field.

The debate about the absurdity of a TB? I don't think it is that broken, since it's an abstract presentation of what a human can handle before taking noteworthy damage. The human body is frail compared to a block of bricks, but it is not THAT frail.

Maybe it's because i met some (strange/strong/dedicated) people while training Krav Magar that i do have no problem with the mechanic. There are people out there that are literaly harder to make a dent into than others.

Oh, and yes, living tissue has other properties when it comes to weapon technology than cevlar or other materials used for bulletresistant clothes. Compare the make-up of a dumdum bullet and an AP bullet. All designed to damage/kill but with very different effects.

It's a very generous abstraction, though, and one that (judging from the forums) keeps causing balance issues for many GMs.

The game wants to tell us that, effectively, the human body is more resilient than a flak vest. Or, for Space Marines, more resilient than a suit of ceramite-plated powered armour. Not sure I can buy that. Have you ever tried stabbing one of those?

It might be different if this was just a weird break with realism. Many other games have that, too. Heck, most games don't even bother with Toughness and Injuries at all but are still stuck with D&D-style hitpoints. But it's not just that - it's that there was another option, and that the current one apparently keeps to cause problems, showing the limitations of the game.

It's probably less of an issue in Only War, as characters rarely get access to high end armour. But it's a sad thing that in Dark Heresy, the lasgun gets laughed out of the room as soon as people have access to Carapace and PA. A gun whose blasts are described as flash-cooking meat and having it explode in a cloud of gory mist deserves more than to cause a mild sunburn.

(subjective opinion, ofc - I'm stuck in a TT interpretation of the 'verse)

A gun whose blasts are described as flash-cooking meat and having it explode in a cloud of gory mist deserves more than to cause a mild sunburn.

(subjective opinion, ofc - I'm stuck in a TT interpretation of the 'verse)

The game wants to tell us that, effectively, the human body is more resilient than a flak vest. Or, for Space Marines, more resilient than a suit of ceramite-plated powered armour. Not sure I can buy that. Have you ever tried stabbing one of those?

It might be different if this was just a weird break with realism. Many other games have that, too. Heck, most games don't even bother with Toughness and Injuries at all but are still stuck with D&D-style hitpoints. But it's not just that - it's that there was another option, and that the current one apparently keeps to cause problems, showing the limitations of the game.

How is this any different?

Or you know, you could take away the TB-soak and lower the damage of all weapons by 3?

No, have you? Either the ceramite armour or the genetically modified superman?

Nope, but I've worn a flak vest and can safely say they are sturdier than my (or your) skin.

Unless what you're trying to say is that flak vests in M41 are crappier than they are now, which ... I guess would be possible, but doesn't really fit to their fluff description.

For powered armour and Space Marines I've got to rely on the descriptions of the source material.

How is this any different?

40% still feels like a very big chance to completely negate a lasgun blast (though I admit, psychologically it would feel better!) - and anyone wearing power armour would remain invulnerable. Personally, I'd be looking for something closer to the source material.

Plus, I actually like Toughness playing a role in how well differently built people can deal with injuries. I'm just saying there are better ways to do so.

Moep: that pic isn't showing

Moep: that pic isn't showing

Hmm... strange. I think it worked once... maybe because of direct linking so here: http://1d4chan.org/images/f/f3/Guardsmen.jpg

In fluff Lasguns are used by humans to kill human-equivalents. And if you think about it the imperial guard is actually mostly in combat with human-equivalents. This includes renegades/cultists and seperatists etc. but can also be extended to eldar etc.and in this case it works pretty solid, especially with its doctrine that if one burst is not enough you have plenty of ammo for several other bursts.

If you line it up against MEQs like CSMs you might have some trouble but in the end the deciding factor here is quantity instead of quality. (Stalin: Quantity has a quality all its own). You just have to shoot quite a bit and throw enough guardsmen at the enemy to make it work - but it will. The problem is that we play a squad of guardsmen, not an entire regiments and that we cant just throw the PCs at the enemy for people will die. But that is the setting. If my PCs decide to confront some CSM in a blaze of glory... okay. But it might be smarter to prepare the battlefield and set up traps etc.

A lasgun is good, yes it is (as far as RF will bring you) but it also has its limits. But when you start picking dedicated las-gun talents (Hammer of the Emperor much) you can be pretty beast with the standard one and absurdly overpowered with a cheap gun like a long-las that is just stupidly strong.

Also a nice way to avoid the "he soaked the lasgun barrage" thing is to not assume that every hit is point blank into the targets center of mass of the specific body part. Maybe it was just a near hit that burned his skin and hair (reducing wounds) but was not sheer soak like (MY SKIN IS ADAMANTIUM YOU BASTARDS). In this case TB is not additional armor but more or less luck+toughness. He received a hit that burned parts of his left arm but not the center of mass. And because he is such a bad-ass he can take it to a degree.

And the stone lasgun comparison... it is true for the mechanics break down at that point. though thematically I make a difference. A stone or fist wont critically wound a terminator in my games though enough massed lasgun fire would be able to do so. (In that case I think of the first deamon hunter book for example where the protagonist returned from a mission against a cult that managed to penetrate and demolish his terminator grade armor and even himself with massed fire though not endangering his life at all. That is what tactical dreadnought armor is about, standing in small-arms fire without taking a scratch. Power armor is weaker in that case but still a combat experienced veteran can kill him with his lasgun. Even more so with a hot-shot that are the dedicated counter against heavy infantry like MEQs.

Hmm... strange. I think it worked once... maybe because of direct linking so here: http://1d4chan.org/images/f/f3/Guardsmen.jpg

Ah yeah, 1d4chan doesn't allow hotlinking - it works by clicking that link, and then re-loading the url once more.

If you line it up against MEQs like CSMs you might have some trouble but in the end the deciding factor here is quantity instead of quality.

Exactly! I just don't like this volume of fire being represented by special rules (Hordes) rather than "just" a low chance of causing injury. Because special rules come with a taste of bending reality. Like cheating. In general, I would always prefer a game's most basic mechanic already being compatible with such a depiction. Like it works in GW's games.

Also a nice way to avoid the "he soaked the lasgun barrage" thing is to not assume that every hit is point blank into the targets center of mass of the specific body part.

See, in my understanding, this is what the damage roll already represents. Barring Righteous Fury (which, in comparison, can only be interpreted as a shot right into the eye), a lasgun cannot hit any more true than when you roll a 10 on the d10, so if the result is still caught by TB, then ... yes, it was the adamantium skin.

And if we interpret a 10 on the d10 as being "dead center", you're still left with an average human character's resilience (TB and Armour) reducing this result by between 33-50%. And after that , the remainder results in you losing a few Wounds without any actual injury effect at all. As I said, very generous.

On a sidenote, fluffing "Wounds" as "Luck" would be a neat idea. But in that case I'd put them in front of any damage negation. And I still believe TB should only reduce injuries, not prevent them entirely. Yes, I'm very bullheaded once I am convinced of something.

Lynata: The worst thing is, I'm not actually disagreeing with you, I just think you're treating a (single) symptom rather than curing the disease.

FFG took over a deadbeat of a system which was a simplified version* of a system originally developed in the mid-80'ies. It carries over a number of elements and ideas that should have never left the 80'ies and even now has a few design decissions that I haven't seen in serious systems since the early 90'ies. TB-as-soak is far from the only problem and in my opinion not even the biggest problem, which is why you sometimes see me talking out against "trying to fix the TB problem".

It is merely a symptom of an underlaying problem.

Mind you, the IP has certain very fundamental problems, that you have even pointed out yourself as I recall, of internal consistency. When we're supposed to take seriously that there tend to be more casualties in a game of Blood Bowl than a game of Necromunda, where even fairly basic weapons are supposed to "flash boil meat", there's a problem.

The designers of and RPG need a greater degree of consistency, and they have chosen to focus of weapons being in the weaker end (compatible with what many experience in the TT) rather than eg the über-heroics of Abnett's Ghosts.

This was their decission to make, and something they had to decide on.

Add to this that a lasgun shot in the RPG isn't a lasgun shot in the TT, but more like 20 or more, and that a typical guardsman is supposed to function with minimal problems after that about 50% of the time, assuming he isn't wearing his armour, these lasguns suddently look overpowered to me.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot.

Toughness should play a role, but a different role. Great. How'd you impliment this. As simply as possibly* - because we're not even trusted to be able to subtract number correctly, if you remember that discussion in the DH2 Beta forum.

* Because simpler is always better?

Yes, I'm very bullheaded once I am convinced of something.

Nah, its not bullheaded it is just another take on the setting and as long as we can offer reasonable arguments there is nothing wrong about it.^^

I for example am in favor of a more "heroic" approach that allows PCs to be the stereotypical grunt everyone likes and that can take quite punch for the team without being instantly critically wounded. That way I can have campaigns with a more reliable cast in terms of surviving PCs and imho that also allows more RP when the PC have to go trough some serious stuff and actually survive to bond after that. Yes, combat is somewhat gamey with arbitrary stats that work like some additional layers of armor but everything else seem to sacrifice something or make everyone equal and thus reducing the possibilities of development where nobody can be resilient and everyone is quite deadly without much effort.

It is merely a symptom of an underlaying problem.

Here I agree - that now I'm curious ... what is the worst problem for you?

I think the only "critical" things that spring to mind right now are the existence/execution of Unnatural traits, the range of racial averages and character advances on the d100 scale, and the execution of semi- and full auto fire.

I also feel tempted to reduce the general bulk of the system, but that's nothing that really bothers me as much as the above. Oh, and I have little to no experience with how the system deals with vehicles.

The designers of and RPG need a greater degree of consistency, and they have chosen to focus of weapons being in the weaker end (compatible with what many experience in the TT) [...] Add to this that a lasgun shot in the RPG isn't a lasgun shot in the TT, but more like 20 or more

Now, that's not how I'm seeing things. The abstraction of the tabletop certainly leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but the lasgun isn't even listed as a Rapid Fire weapon. If a lasgun attack represents 20 shots, a boltgun would be 40, and a heavy bolter would unload its entire belt in a single round. I believe that's pushing it.

Personally, I've always interpreted it as simply "a few" (up to a half dozen) shots, accompanied by a bit of movement (ducking into cover, shuffling around, peeking out to take your shot, etc) and interaction with nearby comrades.

This would be in line with GW's d100 Inquisitor game, where the lowest lasgun damage profile is 2d6, and power armour has 10 armour points. If you roll a 11 or 12, you will cause an injury; that's an 16% chance.

This is also in line with the fluff description of Marine power armour in the old AoD Codex, where it states that it lowers the chance of injury from small arms fire by 50-85%. Which means that there's at least a 15% chance for small arms fire to cause injury. Which is very close to the 16% from Inquisitor. Which is close to the 17% (To Wound + Armour Save) of the tabletop (except that the abstraction here means multiple shots/injuries, resulting in a kill).

Coincidence? Or ... consistency?

Either way, the exact time it takes is not even important - that it's possible without special rules is.

So, my interpretation has always been that the weapons of the 41st millennium are actually really terrible. Lasguns being "flashlights" is, imho, an unfair term that only came to be because people dismiss its efficiency being hampered by sci-fi armour and alien carapaces. And yet it still manages to kill. I merely wish this to be represented nicely in an RPG as well.

Toughness should play a role, but a different role. Great. How'd you impliment this. As simply as possibly

Well ... is the Inquisitor method really too complex?

"As simple as possible" would probably be to simply turn Toughness into a modifier for Wounds, like Constitution works in other RPGs. You're tougher = you get more hitpoints. The simplest method imaginable. And one I'd favour above the current system, all things considered. But I still think the Inq one is more interesting.

I'd like that idea, too - a bit of heroism is never "wrong" in a game like this! That being said, your enemies also benefit from TB and Wounds, which means you'd take a lot more time to put them down. And given that Inquisitor still features TB as soak between Injury levels, whilst there is a higher chance to be wounded, there is also a high chance that you won't be injured in a way that cannot be treated!

That being said, I wouldn't be averse to the idea of keeping Wounds as Luck, as mentioned above. Like Fate Points, it could be a minimum of bias or plot armour in favour of the PCs ... as long as they are not favoured too strongly but you can still excuse it as simple good fortune or coincidence.

So, my interpretation has always been that the weapons of the 41st millennium are actually really terrible. Lasguns being "flashlights" is, imho, an unfair term that only came to be because people dismiss its efficiency being hampered by sci-fi armour and alien carapaces. And yet it still manages to kill. I merely wish this to be represented nicely in an RPG as well.

Well, in fact the imperial auto guns also are quite potent in the fluff to a degree where an alien race actually likes to loot them. Though they have the same problem. That their cap is reached quite easily. Another Idea would be to to allow any hit, that bypassed Armour to cause a minimum of one wound after toughness reduction and hence even a terminator can be killed by a thousand cuts.

I simply have the problem that exchanging the current system with another one lead to more and more problems, even more so when the game hits the medium power-level where access to decent guns is very possible though Armour does not progress as fast as damage does. This lead to the feeling of being in a UT insta-gib arena where combat was decided by the guys that shot first. That might be okay though the lethality of such a system has very little place for human played characters. So maybe allowing a minimum of one wound would after Armour might be a start.

Also do not forget that there are many talents that improve damage (especially for las weapons) but just a few that improve your soaking. So after a certain XP Wall the offense will become stronger and stronger and the defense can hardly catch up with that.

It is merely a symptom of an underlaying problem.

Here I agree - that now I'm curious ... what is the worst problem for you?

Atleast we're down to only the vestiges of a level-based system though.

I think the only "critical" things that spring to mind right now are the existence/execution of Unnatural traits, the range of racial averages and character advances on the d100 scale, and the execution of semi- and full auto fire.

I also feel tempted to reduce the general bulk of the system, but that's nothing that really bothers me as much as the above. Oh, and I have little to no experience with how the system deals with vehicles.

OW and RT both integrate vehicles, in reasonably similar ways.

I have only limited hands on experience with this system (our regiment uses chimeras and I've shot a few sentinels, but never played a tank specialist), but it seems to be alright.

The designers of and RPG need a greater degree of consistency, and they have chosen to focus of weapons being in the weaker end (compatible with what many experience in the TT) [...] Add to this that a lasgun shot in the RPG isn't a lasgun shot in the TT, but more like 20 or more

Now, that's not how I'm seeing things. The abstraction of the tabletop certainly leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but the lasgun isn't even listed as a Rapid Fire weapon. If a lasgun attack represents 20 shots, a boltgun would be 40, and a heavy bolter would unload its entire belt in a single round. I believe that's pushing it.

There's even a rule (well, an Order) called First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire to get even more shots from the things.

This would be in line with GW's d100 Inquisitor game, where the lowest lasgun damage profile is 2d6, and power armour has 10 armour points. If you roll a 11 or 12, you will cause an injury; that's an 16% chance.

This is also in line with the fluff description of Marine power armour in the old AoD Codex, where it states that it lowers the chance of injury from small arms fire by 50-85%. Which means that there's at least a 15% chance for small arms fire to cause injury. Which is very close to the 16% from Inquisitor. Which is close to the 17% (To Wound + Armour Save) of the tabletop (except that the abstraction here means multiple shots/injuries, resulting in a kill).

Coincidence? Or ... consistency?

And btw, 11 or 12 or 2d6 is 3/36 or 1/12 chance. Not 16%.

I may suck at P-math, but discrete 2 dimensional distributions I can still do without picking up a pen.

Either way, the exact time it takes is not even important - that it's possible without special rules is.

So, my interpretation has always been that the weapons of the 41st millennium are actually really terrible. Lasguns being "flashlights" is, imho, an unfair term that only came to be because people dismiss its efficiency being hampered by sci-fi armour and alien carapaces. And yet it still manages to kill. I merely wish this to be represented nicely in an RPG as well.

Toughness should play a role, but a different role. Great. How'd you impliment this. As simply as possibly

Well ... is the Inquisitor method really too complex?

"As simple as possible" would probably be to simply turn Toughness into a modifier for Wounds, like Constitution works in other RPGs. You're tougher = you get more hitpoints. The simplest method imaginable. And one I'd favour above the current system, all things considered. But I still think the Inq one is more interesting.

Just remember we're not allowed to use multiplication or division, nor subtraction of multiple digits, because someone (marketing?) has deecided that that's too difficult.

I'm not a huge fan of just turning TB into wounds, considering that I'd much prefer wounds to be gone.

I'd like that idea, too - a bit of heroism is never "wrong" in a game like this! That being said, your enemies also benefit from TB and Wounds, which means you'd take a lot more time to put them down.

And as long as not every bad guy can cause fury, this system is very far from symetrical.

I can't believe I found a scenario that makes me like the Star Wars setup. For those not in the know, in Star Wars Saga Edition, you get a class bonus to defense, to illustrate your growing experience in battle, staying alive, etc, and if you put on armor, you lose that bonus. So if you are a low-level schmoe, then armor can be a benefit, if you can afford it, salvage it, or what have you, and once you get up to a level where the prestige classes are available, no armor is worth it, based on defense, because you could have a +11 class bonus, or a +6 armor bonus from the overall best armor. Yeah, there are some talents that can mitigate this, letting you wear armor and pick between it and class, for the other advantages armor brings, and its next up one that says get class, and add half of the armor's value as well, but it goes to show why, excluding Darth Vader, Boba Fett, and some other Sith Lords, no other high-level NPCs wear armor.

Toughness Bonus might be nice for those who don't wear armor, like scribes, Psykers, and Officers with only fancy clothing, but if you wear armor, it might be nice to let it be doing the whole job. I don't know, I like being especially survivable, I often find the lasgun to be crap by fluff, and stuff, but yeah, if I have a power weapon, it should carve your power armor, and YOU, in half, Space Marine, Adamantium skin, or whatever your excuse for being "so goddamn tough" is.

As long as they don't go back to Vitality and Wounds though

Great. Now you reminded me of GURPS "Bulletproof Nudity".

How are you seeing things then? And for the record, lasguns are certainly rapid fire in the last codex I have, though I admit I haven't picked up the very latest one.

There's even a rule (well, an Order) called First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire to get even more shots from the things.

You're right - upon checking my copy, I seem to have misremembered. Still I don't believe that everyone empties an entire bolter clip in a single round of combat. And as the name implies, the FRFSRF Order is meant to increase the frequency with which the soldiers pull the trigger rather than circumventing the gun's built-in limitations.

But as I said, personally I'm assuming 2-4, maybe 6 shots per round of combat - all in addition to a variety of other actions that similarly "get lost" in the abstraction. It's how it best ties in with the Inquisitor game as well, which after all was written by the same studio. Also, there are certain rules such as "Snap Shot" that just wouldn't make a lot of sense if a single game turn was as long as you imply it is, not to mention that it'd skew the narrative effects of movement and melee combat even further.

Given that we're talking about GW here, I'm going to say "Coincidence".

And btw, 11 or 12 or 2d6 is 3/36 or 1/12 chance. Not 16%.

I may suck at P-math, but discrete 2 dimensional distributions I can still do without picking up a pen.

"Once is happenstance, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern."

- Ian Fleming

As for the math, actually we were both incorrect. You were right that I made a mistake, but then you made one yourself. With 2d6, the smallest possible result is a 2 (1+1), so there are 11 possible results rather than 12. If 2 out of these 11 results are injuries (11 and 12), then that's an 18% chance (2/11), not 9% (1/12).

I'm not so familiar with Inquisitor that I can call up the damage system off hand. I only read it once and decided it didn't do what I wanted it to.

Just remember we're not allowed to use multiplication or division, nor subtraction of multiple digits, because someone (marketing?) has deecided that that's too difficult.

Well, fortunately we as creative players and GMs are not bound by FFG's decision.

For what it's worth, I actually think the first Beta was too complicated. Not because of what sort of mathematical action was demanded, but where and how . I already suppressed those memories, but my posts on the subject should still be available over on the DH2 Beta forums. I only remember that I was looking at it, thinking it was a mess, and asking myself why they didn't just adopt Inquisitor - especially as they were doing away with Wounds too! It looked like a half-assed solution, neither here nor there.

...except that half the time we are encouraged to have NPCs dies when they reach 0 wounds, which makes things like Orks a joke.

What's half a dozen hitpoints more or less going to change? Either way those NPCs have Wounds, and they have TB too.

Once something is at 0 Wounds, the current rules almost guarantee a quick end anyways. Another reason for why I like Inquisitor: you're easier to injure, but harder to injure heavily .

I can't believe I found a scenario that makes me like the Star Wars setup. For those not in the know, in Star Wars Saga Edition, you get a class bonus to defense, to illustrate your growing experience in battle, staying alive, etc, and if you put on armor, you lose that

Wow. It's been ages since I last looked at SW Saga, but ... that's actually not a bad idea to recreate the "movie feeling". None of the heroes wore armour, after all.

Rolling 2d6 you have 36 possible outcomes*. Only 3 of those outcomes produce results of 11 or 12 (5+6, 6+5 and 6+6).

Please note that my initial formualtion was 3/36. This we traditionally "shorten" to 1/12. This has nothing to do with the (coincidental) detail that we have 12 outcomes (because, as you point out, we have 11).

As you hopefully are aware, there's a much greater chance of eg. rolling a 7 on 2d6 (1/6 yo be exact).

So no, it's not (2/11), it's 3/36

* 6x6**, meaning each die can get results in the range [1-6], while assuming the dice are "fair" ***

** assuming the dice are identifiable from eachother. You get the same result if they are indistiguishable, but the argument looks uglier IIRC

*** by "fair" dice we mean that there is exactly the same chance of each side popping up - equal probability for each possible outcome.

Wow, I suck at math. Or it was just too late for my brain to compute properly. Probably a bit of both.

You're right, of course. Awkward that I totally missed multiple dice making for more results!

Fine, in that case I suppose we'll have to go with coincidence.

Inquisitor also has the Triplex-pattern lasgun that comes with a charge slider for higher-powered shots (2d6+2 or 2d6+4), but I'm just going to assume that (as per its description in the IG Codex) it is very rare and thus should not affect the overall reputation of the weapon class.

As I recall, it get's even better, as the eviscerator is Razor Sharp and so may well have effective pen of 18 in many cases. This is only really useful if you decided to take on a tank in close combat.

Well this is 40k where tanks commander scream

so u might not have a choice

Inquisitor also has the Triplex-pattern lasgun that comes with a charge slider for higher-powered shots (2d6+2 or 2d6+4), but I'm just going to assume that (as per its description in the IG Codex) it is very rare and thus should not affect the overall reputation of the weapon class.

OW has a Triplex-pattern lasgun.

It has it's own seperate set of rules

OW has a Triplex-pattern lasgun.

It has it's own seperate set of rules

I know. I'm still a bit mad that FFG caved in to public demand by giving its charge slider to every single las small arm in the game, as opposed to how it worked in the 1st Beta. For once they actually replicated what it said in the studio material, and then ...

Though in OW, even the standard lasgun charge slider set on maximum doesn't manage to actually injure a Marine - 1d10+4 (5-14) Pen 2 is just enough to still get soaked by the Astartes' minimum AP+TB (16). As opposed to Inquisitor, where you'd have 2d6+4 (2-16) vs AP 10 and no TB.

OW has a Triplex-pattern lasgun.

It has it's own seperate set of rules

I know. I'm still a bit mad that FFG caved in to public demand by giving its charge slider to every single las small arm in the game, as opposed to how it worked in the 1st Beta. For once they actually replicated what it said in the studio material, and then ...

There is a seperate Triplex Lasgun in OW, seperate from the lasgun variable setting rule.

OW, p. 176, Can be used as a pretty standard lasgun, a non-felling longlas or a short ranged, single blast with felling and proven.

.

Though in OW, even the standard lasgun charge slider set on maximum doesn't manage to actually injure a Marine - 1d10+4 (5-14) Pen 2 is just enough to still get soaked by the Astartes' minimum AP+TB (16). As opposed to Inquisitor, where you'd have 2d6+4 (2-16) vs AP 10 and no TB.

And as mentioned, the Triplex can get Felling. Which helps.

It actually doesn't, it's been discussed and the math was done. Incinerate mode is only ever better if you move and shoot and cannot aim.

ER... no.

There is a seperate Triplex Lasgun in OW, seperate from the lasgun variable setting rule.

OW, p. 176, Can be used as a pretty standard lasgun, a non-felling longlas or a short ranged, single blast with felling and proven.

I know. I was referring to the 1st Edition of the Beta, where the charge slider was only present on the Triplex-pattern (exactly like in GW's Inquisitor game), whereas the other las weapons just had other perks.

The Incinerate Mode was FFG desperately trying to justify its existence, after they gave the charge slider to every lasgun and las pistol - as a lot of players on the forums had demanded (usually citing Black Library's IIUP as a source, which once again serves to prove that outsourced fluff seems more popular and more widely known than GW's own material).

1d10+5, pen 2 if you want to be exact.

And as mentioned, the Triplex can get Felling. Which helps.

Ah, it was 1d10+4 in the old Beta... Well, that's at least a 10% chance, provided the Marine did not push their Toughness. Barring Righteous Fury or certain Talents and Orders that would push the weapon's damage beyond what it is apparently supposed to be capable of.

And yeah @ Felling, but I was talking about the charge sliders.

I know. I was referring to the 1st Edition of the Beta, where the charge slider was only present on the Triplex-pattern (exactly like in GW's Inquisitor game), whereas the other las weapons just had other perks.

The Incinerate Mode was FFG desperately trying to justify its existence, after they gave the charge slider to every lasgun and las pistol - as a lot of players on the forums had demanded (usually citing Black Library's IIUP as a source, which once again serves to prove that outsourced fluff seems more popular and more widely known than GW's own material).

And yeah @ Felling, but I was talking about the charge sliders.

Sorry if I've not been too comprehensive there - depending on the time of day (or rather, night), I have a tendency to just write what pops up in my mind, occasionally leaving out critical details ...