The Howlrunner is swarm is a Proven squad.

No one is saying that the Howlrunner swarm is good, effective and even better then Ties with TC's. But the Howl swarm does suffer from how much the damage potential goes down when Howl is killed, and she's going to be the first tie targeted in most cases.

So is 6 TF's with TC's better then Howl + 6 TF's? No, but 6 TF's with TC's is a better deal then 6 TF's without. So the Tie with TC's could be an alternative to the classic swarm. Just because it may not be as effective doesn't mean it's a bad list.

If you'll look at my post history in the topic you'll see that I also prefer Howlrunner. That doesn't change the fact the build offers something different. Somwthing Tie Swarms could theoretically make use of. And Howlrunner is an enormous target, most likely one you lose in the first two turns of engagement.

I really only like Targeting Computers on very specific ships that could use that second delayed action. Some of the new Interceptor Aces come to mind (Kanos, Lorrior, Cowall) so that they can pull off their hijinks and still have a decent shot, at least every other turn (or same turn with Squad Leader, for example).

Hull Upgrade or Stealth Device make a little more sense, though not necessarily universally. Generally-speaking, with TIEs, particularly low-level TIEs, the strength comes in quantity, not quality.

If you'll look at my post history in the topic you'll see that I also prefer Howlrunner. That doesn't change the fact the build offers something different. Somwthing Tie Swarms could theoretically make use of. And Howlrunner is an enormous target, most likely one you lose in the first two turns of engagement.

Here's my question about TC on Ties? Are you going to be able to use them enough to make it worth it? I don't see grabbing locks in the beginning attacks as your best play. I think Focus will be your action here. I don't see it being worth the risk to grab TL's on this first round. With PS 1 you may not even be able to target the ship that you want to shoot at so again Focus is going to be better. In the beginning part of the game I don't think it's going to help and your going to lose some ships before they ever grab a lock.

Now after the scrum happens and formations are broken and ships are out of position, Grabbing a lock here isn't so bad as it can set you up later with a Lock and a Focus for attack.

In the end game a TL can help, but your flying at PS 1 and if your down to 1 ship then things aren't going well for you.

When I think about the game I don't see that many ships being able to make use of the TC. Would you rather have 6 AP's with TC or 7 APs. I think I would rather have 7 ships.

You get 7 AP's with TL. It's a question of do you want 7 with TL, 7 with Howlrunner, or 8 with nothing. (Or 6 named Ties.)

You get 7 AP's with TL. It's a question of do you want 7 with TL, 7 with Howlrunner, or 8 with nothing. (Or 6 named Ties.)

I think the question is 7 AP's with TL vs 8 AP's? I think I go with more ships. I like the TC, just don't like it for APs

Would you rather have 6 AP's with TC or 7 APs.

But you can get 6 Black Squad pilots with TC, at PS4 a lot of the issues you mention go away. Plus you have 4 points left to put a few 1 point EPT's on some of them.

Oooh, you can build a counter-squad. Every squad can be countered. This build has advantages no other Tie-Swarm has, making it worth discussion. Target Locks are offensively superior to Focuses. They offer a level of adaptability Tie Swarms have not had before, and you're overstating the difficulty of getting a target lock on higher PS pilots.

Counter squad? I just showed how poorly the suggested "variation" would fare against a much more "standardized" version.

I must be COMPLETELY blind to see how "offensively superior" a Target Lock is compared to a Focus on a TIE fighter when you are paying 2 points for that ability. Ok, TL will let you re-roll both dice if you whiff although your odds of hitting don't go up much; with only a Focus you may not get any rerolls but each die now has a 75% chance of landing on a useful result instead of just a 50% chance. You realize that with a reroll when you don't get a desirable result 50% of the then net chance of a desirable result is 75%? There's a bit more chance and the most desirable result but when the unfavorable results happen you don't need to spend the Focus and have it for the often more important task of staying alive.

Spending points to give a TIE Fighter the ability to Target Lock is not giving it anything a swarm really needs. And if I'm "overstating" the difficulty of getting "good" target locks with low PS ships I'm really wondering how. You move and no one may be in range; they move and now they are in range but you've already used your action. Then there are those "issues" with actually getting to use a TL; maybe they will scare an opponent into a different course of action but on a TIE Fighter they just aren't that scary.

Now back to all the stuff I skipped. If one is going to try to counter a post one should do a better job of showing where there are errors.

You get 7 AP's with TL. It's a question of do you want 7 with TL, 7 with Howlrunner, or 8 with nothing. (Or 6 named Ties.)

The choice here is really a no brainer. You go with 6+Howlrunner or 8 with nothing.

Step down a little bit and you get AP+TC (x6) at the same cost you get AP (x7). Put things into that light and which is better should be clear. Maybe the ability to Target Lock will give the 6 an edge in some engagements but the 7 have almost all of the numbers on their side.

Step down a little bit and you get AP+TC (x6) at the same cost you get AP (x7).

But again...

You can also go with 6x BSP w/TC for 96 points, leaving you 4 points for EPT's, and a squad filled with PS4 ships, which will make more effective use of TL.

Step down a little bit and you get AP+TC (x6) at the same cost you get AP (x7).

But again...

You can also go with 6x BSP w/TC for 96 points, leaving you 4 points for EPT's, and a squad filled with PS4 ships, which will make more effective use of TL.

Ok Lets use your list. You have 6 BSP's + TC and you give 4 of them VI so that you can make better use of TL.

When are you going to use TL in the game? How often are you going to get a lock and a focus? Focus is still going to be the better action 9 times out of 10.

Now that you have a higher PS Barrel Roll becomes a better alternate action then TL. You have more competition for your actions.

Step down a little bit and you get AP+TC (x6) at the same cost you get AP (x7).

But again...

You can also go with 6x BSP w/TC for 96 points, leaving you 4 points for EPT's, and a squad filled with PS4 ships, which will make more effective use of TL.

The squad of 6x BSP+TC then need to be compared to the AP x8 build. True the Academy Pilots don't have much to spend the 4 points on so I'm guessing they could use them for upgraded pilot instead; lets say Dark Curse.

Step down a little bit and you get AP+TC (x6) at the same cost you get AP (x7).

But again...

You can also go with 6x BSP w/TC for 96 points, leaving you 4 points for EPT's, and a squad filled with PS4 ships, which will make more effective use of TL.

Im with you there,

Though I understand why others will continue to disagree.

Both have their merits I think, but some value some merits more than others...

Though I understand why others will continue to disagree.

I do too. I'm not trying to claim that this is a better list then the Howl + 6 AP. I'm saying that 6 BSP is a much better list then the 6 AP w/TC list that was mentioned. BSP w/TC at PS4 works better with TL then a AP w/TC at PS1 does.

I'm not even saying this would be a great squad but it could be a fun alternative to the classic Howl swarm.

There is one more reason why the focusing TIE swarm has been underrated in this discussion. When you have a swarm of TIEs all coming in for the kill and they all Focus, those focuses can be used to defend on those ships that get shot at. Three agility dice is nice, but with only three hull, TIEs can die fast.

When six TIEs come in for the attack all with focus tokens, some are going to get shot at and three dice with a focus is lots harder to kill than simple having three agility dice. Since you are almost guaranteed to have more ships in your TIE swarm that your opponent has, you will always have some Focus left to be used on attack.

If I had a TL action on a a TIE (or even a TIE Interceptor) the only time I would use my Target Lock was if I didn't have any shots, no one had shots on me, and I was in range to TL. In that situation TL is useful, but it is a pretty small fraction of total time that I don't think the TL ugrade is really worth its points on Low PS ships with only one action.

You get 7 AP's with TL. It's a question of do you want 7 with TL, 7 with Howlrunner, or 8 with nothing. (Or 6 named Ties.)

In this situation, 7 TIEs including Howlrunner is definitely the best option. You can still focus each TIE with Howlrunner, therefore you have about a 67% chance to hit with both dice. (one focused die at 75%*one focused and rerolled die at 87.5% chance) .75*.875=.656. With just target lock, your likelihood to hit with both dice decreases by about 10%. .75*.75=.5625. Howlrunner, however, cannot reroll her own dice, so her average is still approximately 56% for two hits.

In this situation, 7 TIEs including Howlrunner is definitely the best option.

Yes 6 AP's and Howl is a better option. PS1 Ties just won't have much chance to make good use of TL really. I think 6 BSP w/TC could be an interesting list to run though. They have a high enough PS to actually make use of a TL, and will make target priority harder on the other guy.

If you wanted to go to 100 points you could give 4 of the 6 BSP Determination, making them immune to 8 of the 33 possible crits.

In this situation, 7 TIEs including Howlrunner is definitely the best option.

Yes 6 AP's and Howl is a better option. PS1 Ties just won't have much chance to make good use of TL really. I think 6 BSP w/TC could be an interesting list to run though. They have a high enough PS to actually make use of a TL, and will make target priority harder on the other guy.

If you wanted to go to 100 points you could give 4 of the 6 BSP Determination, making them immune to 8 of the 33 possible crits.

I'm guessing some mixing like this is the "better" option but Howl + swarm is just so good.

In this situation, 7 TIEs including Howlrunner is definitely the best option.

Yes 6 AP's and Howl is a better option. PS1 Ties just won't have much chance to make good use of TL really. I think 6 BSP w/TC could be an interesting list to run though. They have a high enough PS to actually make use of a TL, and will make target priority harder on the other guy.

If you wanted to go to 100 points you could give 4 of the 6 BSP Determination, making them immune to 8 of the 33 possible crits.

I'm guessing some mixing like this is the "better" option but Howl + swarm is just so good.

Actually I don't like straight swarms, I like a swarm with a flanker like Soontir or Jax or a Bounty Hunter or just to mix it up with named pilots. Honestly my favorite swarm is all the named TIEs. But before this example they were discussing the worth of Targeting Computer on Academy Pilots vs Howlrunner.

Here's a modified swarm with TL's and no Howlrunner

Jendon + ST321 + FCS + weapons engineer + EU

Obsidian x2

APx3

6 ship swarm that does the TL thing probably better than the targeting computers.

6 ship swarm that does the TL thing probably better than the targeting computers.

Jendon can only give out 1 TL and only to stuff at range 1. I don't think that's better then each TF being able to preform it's own TL action.