They both figure prominently in DC's Enforcer spec. Since they're both based in rules that are a little broad, I was curious how people are using Fear rules and Coercion as a baseline.

Fear lists (CRB p. 299) minimum effects, but it seems to me only granting a character a setback die to the enemy's dice pool if they fail their check is a little tepid for 3 talent slots invested.

Intimidating puzzles me more. Multiple ranks represent multiple downgrades to a Coercion difficulty check, but a downgrade is only useful if there are Challenge dice in the pool. How many times would Challenge dice be added and is it worth three talent slots as well?

Challenge dice would be there (and subject to downgrading) if the target has the Discipline skill. Note also that Intimidating can help with resisting Coercion too.

Fearsome doesn't require an action, it just happens whenever you reach engaged range, so that's something. Plus they can take strain damage or be staggered for a round if they roll threat. And if you're reputed to be dangerous, they face the possibility of rolling a Despair and increasing (not upgrading) all their difficulties by 1. That doesn't sound too shabby, though I guess it is 55xp to max it out.

Intimidating is a two-fer; you don't face red dice when making Coercion checks, and anybody that tries to coerce you does. Though, yeah, I guess the only way you'd be facing red dice on a Coercion check is against someone with this talent! The Adversary talent says it only upgrades combat checks, though I would think if you're trying to coerce a dangerous person it ought to apply. I mean, you try to strong-arm Asajj Ventress, she'll put a lightsaber through your chest. But I guess that would be a house rule.

Edit: Ninja'd by HappyDaze! There's your source of red dice.

Edit2: The Hutt Crime Lord in the CRB has Willpower 5, Discipline 5, that's 5 red dice on a Coercion check. He also has Nobody's Fool 3, so that would make it 6 red and 1 purple!

Intimidating might be ok but I'm still skeptical of Fearsome. Coercion I can see using on Rivals or Nemeses and Intimidating being helpful. Fearsome though, even a Minion will typically have GG and even against DDD, that's not going to produce much for the xp invested in my mind. Granted it is automatic every time you engage so I guess I shouldn't expect a lot from it, but it does take up three talent slots, 2 of them 25 pts so it seems a bit overpriced in my mind.

I'm pretty sure my GM doesn't really go by the book with opposed checks. I think he makes the difficulty whatever he feels like it aught to be, which means we're starting to run into reds with almost every check.

I'm pretty sure my GM doesn't really go by the book with opposed checks. I think he makes the difficulty whatever he feels like it aught to be, which means we're starting to run into reds with almost every check.

Opposed checks show up most often with social skills. Right out of the book, one of the hardest checks you'll have is trying to use social skills against the Hutt in the book.

DayIf you downgrade a check's difficulty and there are no red dice left, remove a purple die. Intimidation bottoms out at one purple die no matter how many ranks you have, but that still means with two ranks you can take a Hard check down to Easy with just two strain and an angry glare (provided you have at least 2 ranks in the talent, of course). Might sound like much when you're rolling YYY as it is, but the less dice you're rolling against the more Advantages you'll generate.

You can't remove purple dice with a downgrade, all you can do is remove reds. The talent does not allow a 'decrease' in difficulty, only a 'downgrade'. Two terms that are nearly synonymous but have very different meanings in the game mechanics.

Huh. Don't have the book in front of me so I'll have to double check, but I'm positive that that's the way upgrading works so I'm not sure why the opposite wouldn't hold true...

I thought when there were no more dice to up/downgrade you did add/remove them?

Don't have the page # but when downgrading once all dice are in their downgraded state further downgrades are ignored. It's in the dice roll section up front in the CRB.

You add. You do not remove, as 2P51 said. It's easy to assume they work the same way both directions, but they don't.

Page 22: "If all the potential dice are already in their downgraded form, any further downgrades are ignored."

For upgrades, though, you do add Ability or Difficulty dice when all dice are Proficiency dice or Challenge dice.

Hence part of my lack of enthusiasm for Intimidation. I'm not discounting that 3 downgrades of a Nemeses' Discipline check in a Coercion attempt might be very useful, I'm simply dubious the opportunity will present itself enough consistently to both bother with, as well as, justify the cost and space for 3 talent slots.

Fearsome is another cat to skin and reading the mechanical options for a failed check they just seem a little....meh. I think the devs might intend for a bit more robust effects from fear given this talent also taking up 3 talent slots with 2 of them 25 pts, but I just wish there were some more ideas for Fears effects to better gauge the usefulness of this talent.

So it only gets play if I'm being Coerced or, while I'm doing the threatenin', if they've invested in Discipline. Okay (I don't think I'll be buying that 25pt second rank after all).

Yes, an adversary with ranks in Discipline is the only way Intimidation works. I'm just not sure there are enough Coercion checks a game in my mind to bother either.

Yes, an adversary with ranks in Discipline is the only way Intimidation works. I'm just not sure there are enough Coercion checks a game in my mind to bother either.

Depends on the kind of game you're running. In my bounty hunting campaign, Coercion is used frequently, and it's not too uncommon for the targets to have Discipline.

Just starting to dip my toe into the Coercion/Fear/Intimidating waters with my Bouncer that will scare the piss out of you by just standing there character, so I've not actually tried the mechanic as written yet. But a couple of ideas, shooting from the hip. . . .

Would the downgrades of intimidating working against the target of Fearsome make the fear check more useful? Okay, the talent as written clearly says coercion check, but makes sense that this would work too. Just standing there, base generic check against their fear with full discipline. Puff your chest out with some strain, bam, their discipline takes a hit to resist?

The other thing? I've always thought the Adversary talent only applying to just combat checks is a whole bunch of hooey. Any roll against an Adversary should get some upgrades. With that, the mechanic becomes more useful.

Since I'm intending on picking up Aggressor and the Enforce, I'll have six tiers of Fearsome (eventually). I'm interested to see if having that many will make the minions pissing themselves effective enough.

I would love to be able to use these two together when causing fear, but Fearsome is not the PC making a Coercion check, it's forcing the target to make a Fear check (their Discipline vs a predetermined difficulty). It would be pretty badass, but I think the best you could do is argue using Intimidating to downgrade YOUR Fear check when Vader is coming.

That being said, if any GM would allow using Intimidating to Upgrade a target's Fear check. ... I want to play at your table! Lol.

One of my players has an Enforcer, very entertaining. I haven't been asked to allow Intimidating to be used with Fearsome, but I don't think it would make sense to do so, as Randy G noted, because it's not a Coercion check. And Fearsome is plenty useful on its own...maybe not at one rank, but by the time you hit three ranks, the odds of it working against minion groups without the Discipline skill is pretty good. You can't expect it to work like one of those Signature abilities (Last Man Standing?) that neutralizes minions, no matter how many ranks you get. Fearsome is "always on", whereas Signature abilities at least require a DP flip.*

I'll disagree with you about Adversary as well. Maybe occasionally it should apply outside of combat (GM fiat, etc), but with contests like social skills the opposing dice are already upgraded by the skill of the opposition. Imagine a negotiation with a Hutt...the Hutt's dice pool is already going to be upgraded by their 3 or 4 ranks, which means you're probably up against 3 or 4 red dice in a 5 dice pool. Adding Adversary on top of that seems like rubbing salt in a wound.

* EDIT: I've certainly allowed my player's PC to send threatening minion groups packing *before* a fight by using Coercion + Intimidating, but that still requires an action (and a reasonable story reason imho).

1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Just starting to dip my toe into the Coercion/Fear/Intimidating waters with my Bouncer that will scare the piss out of you by just standing there character, so I've not actually tried the mechanic as written yet. But a couple of ideas, shooting from the hip. . . .

Would the downgrades of intimidating working against the target of Fearsome make the fear check more useful? Okay, the talent as written clearly says coercion check, but makes sense that this would work too. Just standing there, base generic check against their fear with full discipline. Puff your chest out with some strain, bam, their discipline takes a hit to resist?

The other thing? I've always thought the Adversary talent only applying to just combat checks is a whole bunch of hooey. Any roll against an Adversary should get some upgrades. With that, the mechanic becomes more useful.

Since I'm intending on picking up Aggressor and the Enforce, I'll have six tiers of Fearsome (eventually). I'm interested to see if having that many will make the minions pissing themselves effective enough.

This Talent is a good example of where background and narrative intersect mechanics nicely. If you look at the upgrades potential on a Fear check, having that reputation that precedes you, wearing "Ravager garb", really the whole look and theatrics can be shopped as upgrades to the Fear check you impose. The base result isn't overwhelming, but you throw in the chance of Despairs and their consequence, and it can pile up to being very effective.

The utility of fearsome shouldn't be underestimated, firstly it does not require any resources from the PC other than spent xp. It is always there and usable at will with the only caveat is that you engage with your target, or that they engage with you. This could be in combat, social, you name it. Failure will mean that they face a setback for the entire encounter and for the purposes of success/failure and advantage/threat this can be as effective as an upgrade in difficulty, unless that upgrade added a purple dice. So it is as effective as some criticals.

It is offensive , but it doesnt trigger combat. Combined with Loom your friends can drop a serious amount of advantage on their social checks , while maximising their opponents threat on theirs.

With one rank it may not trigger much, with 2 its not consistent but triggering often enough to be worthwhile and with 3 (or more) you are a boss. I'm curious what happens if you have the maximum 8 ranks of it, do you roll 8 purple dice. I'm going to drop a question on this one to FFG support.

Combined with No Escape it makes a lovely debuffer with the following results possible between the basic power and upgraded with No Escape (force talent from the Guardian tree for those without Keeping the Peace)

1 threat , turn the extra failure to strain damage , which both the Enforcer and Guardian have the abilith to dish out in significant measure

2 threat , Lose free maneuver*

3 threat , Stagger

* other than this, its the GMs call how to use the threat, and is only possible with No Escape,note that No Escape does not stipulate that it has to be the owner of the talent's fear check, so a group made up of an Enforcer/ Guardian and Aggressor all engaging one opponent could force an average and 2 hard difficulty fear checks, No Escape could be trigger from any of these.

The setback from the failed fear check can go a long way to triggering other talents that require threat like Improved Reflect / Improved Parry / Overbalance. Note this is just combat, there are a lot of other talents inside and outside of combat that are keyed off an opponents threat.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

I'm curious what happens if you have the maximum 8 ranks of it, do you roll 8 purple dice.

Each additional rank past 5 should be upgrading the difficulty. 8 ranks = Vader in Fearsome.

2 hours ago, Randy G said:

Each additional rank past 5 should be upgrading the difficulty. 8 ranks = Vader in Fearsome.

Is that RAW, house rule or dev answered question.

It's a "should be". Except in the cases of opposed checks, anything beyond Formidable difficulty is listed as impossible. So it's not RAW, house ruled, or Devs answered. It's an agreed upon interpretation.

1 hour ago, Randy G said:

It's a "should be". Except in the cases of opposed checks, anything beyond Formidable difficulty is listed as impossible. So it's not RAW, house ruled, or Devs answered. It's an agreed upon interpretation.

Never seen a heavy tractor beam (Tractor 6) in use before, eh?

Difficulties of 6+ are very unusual, but they do occur.