Even with Advanced Sensors, the B-Wing ends up stressed after a K-Turn. That means it can't do another red maneuver, or do a white if it wants an action. The Defender can flip and not only get an action, but not end stressed. It's also going to help if you get blocked. You can just do another K-Turn the next turn. No other ship can do that. A white K-Turn opens up a LOT of interesting options. It's impossible to judge based on the incomplete information released so far. The dial is critical. Trying it out a few rounds will be much more enlightening than complaining on a forum.

The biggest issue with Stress is action denial. With Advanced Sensors Stress does not do so unless you have to take a white manuever the turn after, meaning that thw stress is far from likely to cause action loss.

My hunch is that Advanced Sensors will be a lot less useful later in the year in the face of flèchette torpedoes and stress causing droids, among other items. Advanced Sensors do not help against stress taken in the combat phase and are, in fact, negated by it. I know a lot of people are concerned about what a stress environment does to the interceptor but I think Advanced Sensor Bwings will be less attractive as double stress will occur much more frequently.

Even with Advanced Sensors, the B-Wing ends up stressed after a K-Turn. That means it can't do another red maneuver, or do a white if it wants an action. The Defender can flip and not only get an action, but not end stressed. It's also going to help if you get blocked. You can just do another K-Turn the next turn. No other ship can do that. A white K-Turn opens up a LOT of interesting options. It's impossible to judge based on the incomplete information released so far. The dial is critical. Trying it out a few rounds will be much more enlightening than complaining on a forum.

The biggest issue with Stress is action denial. With Advanced Sensors Stress does not do so unless you have to take a white manuever the turn after, meaning that thw stress is far from likely to cause action loss.

My hunch is that Advanced Sensors will be a lot less useful later in the year in the face of flèchette torpedoes and stress causing droids, among other items. Advanced Sensors do not help against stress taken in the combat phase and are, in fact, negated by it. I know a lot of people are concerned about what a stress environment does to the interceptor but I think Advanced Sensor Bwings will be less attractive as double stress will occur much more frequently.

True, but I don't see Flechette's as worth the points... We'll see where the Stress Metagame goes. I don't see ordnance as capable of altering the meta. It's not cost effective enough...

While I agree with you that the new stress additions won't prevent people from taking interceptors or B-wings with advances sensors. For 2 points, Fletchette torps will see a lot of use.

True, but I don't see Flechette's as worth the points... We'll see where the Stress Metagame goes. I don't see ordnance as capable of altering the meta. It's not cost effective enough...

I won't argue that there certainly will be a lot of questions about how large a part lists that take advantage of inflicting stress will be (though beware, I got called a "lesser gamer" for implying almost the exact same thing). However, simply their inclusion may start to dissuade the use of certain builds. 4 Xwing builds are currently a solid build and could be modified to simply add the inclusion of some stress inducing elements, for example, or the Empire will do the same with Kath and some Bombers with flechette torpedoes. I'm not banking on the latter, but bombers will be the cheapest delivery system for them and increase a TIE bomber's firepower easily (2 sets for four points isn't bad).

Either way, your point about action denial being the bigger issue doesn't quite tell the full story with the defender since we've never had a ship that can K-turn get its action and then choose ANY maneuver on its dial. B-Wings currently can have an action after K-turning, but they are then limited in their options and become more predictable the next turn. The Defender will not be.

In a simple joust scenario, if a Defender and Bwing (with advanced sensors) K-Turn against each other, they will be able to take their actions. However, the next turn, the Defender could K-Turn and be on the B-Wing's tail, almost permanently, depending on the two ships involved.

Unless it lacks a 1 forwards. I'm not saying Advanced Sensors is as good as a white K-turn. I'm saying that the difference is still not going to be enough for the cost to the build total, and that the B-wing is a more efficient ship for the points(not saying much given that B-wings appear to be in the top 3 most efficient ships in the game somewhere). 30 Points is a lot. Especially for an abilityless unupgraded ship. At 30 points I should be building my list around the ship. That's looking to be difficult to do with a Defender. It works with the Bounty Hunter because of the dual firing arcs and the fact it is the most durable un-upgraded ship in the game. Even moreso with a Recon Specialist.

Either way, your point about action denial being the bigger issue doesn't quite tell the full story with the defender since we've never had a ship that can K-turn get its action and then choose ANY maneuver on its dial. B-Wings currently can have an action after K-turning, but they are then limited in their options and become more predictable the next turn. The Defender will not be.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is a thing. A thing that doesn't exactly see a lot of play at a cost of one point . Granted you only get to use it once per game, but let's be honest - you aren't going to be K-turning more than once or twice per game anyway.

Built-in Adrenaline Rush isn't worth five points. Or four points. Or three points. At two, there might be some conversation possible. But we aren't at two or three or four or five. We are, quite arguably, in the vicinity of seven or eight points for this ability.

That said, a centerpiece Defender could make for a nasty match-closer. We'll see how things shake down.

Not exactly the same scenario, since to use Adrenaline Rush, you have to give up all the other Elite Talents that there are.

Yeah, it hasn't been optimal to K-turn that often in the game. That's because having your action is very important. The Defender can keep on K-turning, EVEN if stressed. Back to back K-turns has not been seen before. I think it might be important enough to test out before writing off the Defender.

I think it'll be a king-piece in endgame scenarios. I can think of a couple 1v3 knife fights that I would have won handily with a white k-turn on the dial. The problem might be getting to endgame with such a high-value target intact - a decent formation ought to make short work of it. Think I'd rather have a Firespray.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is a thing. A thing that doesn't exactly see a lot of play at a cost of one point . Granted you only get to use it once per game, but let's be honest - you aren't going to be K-turning more than once or twice per game anyway.

Built-in Adrenaline Rush isn't worth five points. Or four points. Or three points. At two, there might be some conversation possible. But we aren't at two or three or four or five. We are, quite arguably, in the vicinity of seven or eight points for this ability.

That said, a centerpiece Defender could make for a nasty match-closer. We'll see how things shake down.

Seven or eight points for that ability? Probably a bit of an exaggeration. A stock X-wing has 2 Agility and 2 Shield and comes in at 21 points, while the Defender (30 points) comes in at 3 Shield and 3 Agility and likely a better dial, which includes the white K-turn. So, I'd give you around three points for the dial, max, and how much of that would be one maneuver is tough to tell without the rest of the dial and wouldn't include what is a better action bar with the inclusion of barrel roll.

I think Sithborg made the point well, too, that it's not really comparable at all. Which is to say that with adrenaline rush, there's opportunity cost, and every other ship's K-Turn causes stress.

EDIT: I mean really laying this out and making that comparison with the X-Wing, I have a hard time making the argument, before getting it on the table, that it is overcosted at all, much less by several points as some seem to think. Whether or not there is a base fighter that we'd pay 30 points for in 100 point list is another thing, as any ship over 30 right now usually has good to elite pilot skill and upgrades that have some synergy, or a great pilot ability.

My hunch is that Advanced Sensors will be a lot less useful later in the year in the face of flèchette torpedoes and stress causing droids, among other items.

I doubt it. Stress torps are a one-shot weapon, which means advanced sensors is still a useful upgrade every other turn of the game. The stress droid gives out stress turn after turn, but it can only go on a Y-wing (crippling lack of greens to clear the stress you take to use it) or an X-wing (dies easily). The best use of the stress droid isn't the stress it gives out, it's the ability to make a cheap Biggs equivalent by putting a "must kill asap" ship on the table. You'll lose it very quickly, but meanwhile Wedge/Farlander/etc are able to get into combat and start killing stuff.

It might be. But I'm pretty sure we could playtest that right now. Take a YT dial(Best dial in the game, treat the 1 Hard as red and the K-Turns as White) Now use the Defender's statlineand actions on a ship and see how it plays. If that's worth thirty points do the same with an A-Wing or an Interceptor.(Second best dials in the game. White or Green five straight isn't that important. See if those make it worth Thirty points. I'm doubting it will be. But I doubt the Defender gets a better dial than any of the three ships I just listed. Moreover they will have two White k-turns and I bet the Defender only gets one(and probably a 3 speed)

As far as the agility goes, I'd say it costs maybe 2-3 points more than the two Shields the B-wing has over the defender, making the dial cost 5-6 points.(Not even mentioning the B-wings upgrade slots.(And whatever the cost is for the torp slots and sensor slot on the B-wing)

I would hope to see both 3- and 5-speed K-turns on the Defender's dial.

Either way, your point about action denial being the bigger issue doesn't quite tell the full story with the defender since we've never had a ship that can K-turn get its action and then choose ANY maneuver on its dial. B-Wings currently can have an action after K-turning, but they are then limited in their options and become more predictable the next turn. The Defender will not be.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is a thing. A thing that doesn't exactly see a lot of play at a cost of one point . Granted you only get to use it once per game, but let's be honest - you aren't going to be K-turning more than once or twice per game anyway.

Built-in Adrenaline Rush isn't worth five points. Or four points. Or three points. At two, there might be some conversation possible. But we aren't at two or three or four or five. We are, quite arguably, in the vicinity of seven or eight points for this ability.

That said, a centerpiece Defender could make for a nasty match-closer. We'll see how things shake down.

The TIE Defender is overcosted without considering its white K-turn, but not by 7 or 8. But in general, the analogy with Adrenaline rush not getting used much is a very good point. Even with pilots that don't use their EPT, you don't see them taking Adrenaline Rush. The math in my Lanchester's thread puts the jousting value of a TIE Defender at between 24-25 points relative to a TIE Fighter:

12*(1.74*(1.25*3+3)/3)^0.52 = 24.4.

Efficiency = 24.4/30 = 81.3%. That's right around the TIE Advanced. I was on record about this basically as soon as the ship got spoiled. We still need to see the rest of the dial, and how exactly white K-turns play out in the real world. No other ship has a white K-turn, so my formulas are fundamentally less viable for the TIE Defender than, say, a Z-95, X-wing, or B-wing that all have non-unique traits. (I account to some extent for the other mechanics, but won't get into that here).

I would hope to see both 3- and 5-speed K-turns on the Defender's dial.

I bet the 5 K-turn is still red. But it would be the best for a white K-turn. The more speed on that one the better. I just am not optimistic. I think they intenionally overcosted the Defender so that they can see how a White K-turn plays out without accidentally breaking the game. They can always do some kind of Chardaan Refit later after all.

Either way, your point about action denial being the bigger issue doesn't quite tell the full story with the defender since we've never had a ship that can K-turn get its action and then choose ANY maneuver on its dial. B-Wings currently can have an action after K-turning, but they are then limited in their options and become more predictable the next turn. The Defender will not be.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is a thing. A thing that doesn't exactly see a lot of play at a cost of one point . Granted you only get to use it once per game, but let's be honest - you aren't going to be K-turning more than once or twice per game anyway.

Built-in Adrenaline Rush isn't worth five points. Or four points. Or three points. At two, there might be some conversation possible. But we aren't at two or three or four or five. We are, quite arguably, in the vicinity of seven or eight points for this ability.

That said, a centerpiece Defender could make for a nasty match-closer. We'll see how things shake down.

The TIE Defender is overcosted without considering its white K-turn, but not by 7 or 8. But in general, the analogy with Adrenaline rush not getting used much is a very good point. Even with pilots that don't use their EPT, you don't see them taking Adrenaline Rush. The math in my Lanchester's thread puts the jousting value of a TIE Defender at between 24-25 points relative to a TIE Fighter:

12*(1.74*(1.25*3+3)/3)^0.52 = 24.4.

Efficiency = 24.4/30 = 81.3%. That's right around the TIE Advanced. I was on record about this basically as soon as the ship got spoiled. We still need to see the rest of the dial, and how exactly white K-turns play out in the real world. No other ship has a white K-turn, so my formulas are fundamentally less viable for the TIE Defender than, say, a Z-95, X-wing, or B-wing that all have non-unique traits. (I account to some extent for the other mechanics, but won't get into that here).

Yeah, I've read and am aware of your values and appreciate the effort you put into it, even if I think they don't tell a very complete story.

Yeah, I've read and am aware of your values and appreciate the effort you put into it, even if I think it doesn't tell a very complete story.

Thanks. No formulas or math can possibly tell the complete story! It's all informative though. More data points are always good. Now FFG just needs to release the ships so we can play with them, even if they are overcosted!

People are going to shoot me if I already suggest House Rules for it, but.... I bet it would be spot-on if it had 4 shields instead of 3. That would put it at 26.6 points jousting, aka 88.8%. That's around the Interceptor's jousting value. Incidentally the ship was "supposed" to have 4 shields anyway, using the nerfed 100 SBD version.

//ducks

Edit: Balanced by House Rules is purely a prediction. I am not seriously suggesting that anyone open up their shiny new TIE Defenders and then give them an extra shield out of the box!

I'll laugh when there's a free unique mod for a single defender that grants an extra shield, just to prevent swarming them... That would be among the moat amusing troll attempts I'd have seen a game designer do.

Yeah, I've read and am aware of your values and appreciate the effort you put into it, even if I think it doesn't tell a very complete story.

Thanks. No formulas or math can possibly tell the complete story! It's all informative though. More data points are always good. Now FFG just needs to release the ships so we can play with them, even if they are overcosted!

I agree on all counts.

People are going to shoot me if I already suggest House Rules for it, but.... I bet it would be spot-on if it had 4 shields instead of 3. That would put it at 26.6 points jousting, aka 88.8%. That's around the Interceptor's jousting value. Incidentally the ship was "supposed" to have 4 shields anyway, using the nerfed 100 SBD version.

I really don't think, even granting that it will have a problem, that the problem is going to be insufficient defense, or even insufficient defensive efficiency. After all, it's already going to be the most durable fighter in the game, and its defense per cost is on par with the perfectly acceptable Firespray.

I'm actually more worried about weak offensive efficiency, since two Interceptors give you about the same defense and double the offense. I'm already finding that ships with 3 Attack are suffering in the B-wing/Falcon heavy meta (because 3 Attack is often more than you need to hit reliably, and 2 Attack is usually far cheaper).

But I'm definitely with the "let's see how it functions on the table" crowd. It's really, really hard to understand what that white K-turn is going to do without the rest of the dial and some table time.

I speculate - wildly - that if lives ten turns it probably wins you the game.

The more uses you get out of that K-turn, the higher it's efficiency. You can reasonably expect to evade one or two firing arcs with it near-indefinitely. Four bogies should be able to focus it off the board in a turn or two. Three, and you probably have a convincing fight on your hands.

*Contingent on everything

I'm actually more worried about weak offensive efficiency, since two Interceptors give you about the same defense and double the offense. I'm already finding that ships with 3 Attack are suffering in the B-wing/Falcon heavy meta (because 3 Attack is often more than you need to hit reliably, and 2 Attack is usually far cheaper).

Agreed on all counts in your post Vorpal.

Slightly off-topic, but just wait until 12 point Z-95s and 15 point A-wings... 2 attack ships might suddenly get really popular!

I will agree it stands a chance of being the single best 1v1 ship since the Falcon. I just think it takes too many build points over comparable ships. Defense is not a functional strong suit in this game. The Firespray has more bulk, and a rear arc. The Bwing is cheaper for similar effects and more adaptability in design. The E-wing has a better action bar and is slightly cheaper(although I do not think the E-wing will be a viable ship either... (But certainly fun.)

I will agree it stands a chance of being the single best 1v1 ship since the Falcon. I just think it takes too many build points over comparable ships. Defense is not a functional strong suit in this game. The Firespray has more bulk, and a rear arc. The Bwing is cheaper for similar effects and more adaptability in design. The E-wing has a better action bar and is slightly cheaper(although I do not think the E-wing will be a viable ship either... (But certainly fun.)

The Firespray isn't substantially more durable, due to its lower Agility; assuming average defense results, it typically lives through about one more attack than the Defender. We've discussed the B-wing exhaustively at this point, and it's nowhere near as durable as the Defender, and may not be able to match the Defender's dial.

And there's no more public information about the E-wing than about the Defender, although they're clearly intended as opposite numbers. I have a few worries about the Defender, but none at all about the E-wing; the combination of systems and astromechs has too much synergy to ignore.

If you use nothing but other tanky ships, then your opponent can't simply focus fire down the glass cannons first. Defenders will likely be best used with Firesprays and Dark Curse.

A high PS Defender mixed with 2 ninja Interceptors could be interesting depending on the pilot abilities.

89 points

Soontir + PtL (30)

Carnor Jax + PtL (29)

PS1 Defender (30)

That leaves 11 points to PS bid the Defender and get 1 or 2 more upgrades. The problem is, your opponent can just kill your glass cannon squints first.

Think you'd want Turr & Lorrir instead. Stronger arc-dodgers, and you save enough points for a couple of hull upgrades or whatever.

Now that I think about it, a Defender with Wingman would make a fantastic... er... wingman for an Interceptor.

I just hope they spoil the Tie Defender next... ...