Is it just me or does anyone else think that the upcoming tie defender is underpowered? I mean the cheapest tie defender pilot is the “Delta Squadron Pilot” costing 30pts and that’s completely bare. For 31pts I can have a “Blue Squadron Pilot” B-wing, who has a higher pilot skill (2 vs 1) with a heavy laser cannon and fire-control system. For what I have seen the defender is sporting a red 1 turn just like the defender so I’m assuming the movement dial is on par with the B-wing, maybe marginally better. The only difference I can see would be the 1 agility on the B-wing vs the 3 agility of the defender, but this is balanced by the 5 shields of the B-wing vs the 3 shields of the defender. The defender can’t even use a system slot. In my mind the defender should be able to match the firepower of the B-wing, while being more maneuverable with a slightly higher cost. I just don’t see the defender being the answer to the B-wing. Of course I’m still fairly new at the game. Perhaps some vets can offer some counterargument on why the defender is good. Or if anyone would like to express their opinion on this, I would love to hear it. I am generally impressed with helpfulness of this X-wing community. Thanks! =)

I have attached some pictures of the source of my information.

The defender is likely to have a far better dial than a b-wing. (Including the previously spoiled white K-turn)

That being said, we don't have all the information at this point, but general consensus seems to be that the defender looks a little bit overpriced.

The Defender will probably have a "speedy" dial with loads of green in the 3, 4 and 5 maneuvers. If this will be an advantage we still need to see. I usually prefer short maneuvers for positioning during mid-game combat and mostly use the faster ones in the early parts of the game for setting up my attack pattern.

The Defender will come with the "Predator" elite skill upgrade card. What it does is still to be announced. But since it can be transferred to any other ship/pilot with an elite skill Preadtor doesn't really make the Defender better than anyone else (unless it's a skill upgrade that uses something the Defender is specifically good at).

I hope something unannounced will change my mind but 3 bare Defenders in a match against 3 bare Bounty Hunters in Firesprays doesn't sound fair. If Onyx Sq. pilots are PS3 at 32 points we are almost equal points wise. I don't expect the Defenders to stand a chance against that.

Well, +2 agility is worth more than +2 shields, that's for sure... And the white K-Turn is powerful... but I also think that FFG played too 'safe' here.

Either the rest of the dial is insanely good, or I'm afraid that the defender will share hangar with the advanced. Maybe the elite pilots also have crazy powers, powerful enough to justify fielding them. We suspect Rexler is able to flip-up dealt damage cards. Maybe he does so by discarding one stress token, like Farlander, or maybe he flips up all cards dealt.... who knows?

I actually think the Defender is probably going to perform a lot better than people seem to be worrying over. It has 3 stats all around, and cannons are absolutely one of the best upgrades in the game. However I'm surprised that it lacks both the boost and evade actions, which means that Push the Limit is going to be a somewhat underwhelming an upgrade on them (without Engine Upgrade). I think they'll provide a good counter to the Rebel's B-Wing seeing as it can abuse ion weapons, and if the white K-turns are good I don't see them as being problematic. Sure, it's expensive, but I feel it's worthwhile over the choice of a heavily upgraded Interceptor.

The Defender will probably have a "speedy" dial with loads of green in the 3, 4 and 5 maneuvers. If this will be an advantage we still need to see. I usually prefer short maneuvers for positioning during mid-game combat and mostly use the faster ones in the early parts of the game for setting up my attack pattern.

That is an interesting thought. If the dial is red 1 turns, mostly white at 2 and all the 3 row as green, with green 4 and green 5 forwards then it is a fun dial, will really force the defender to hit and run past. Could even give it some red at the 2 level. A red 2 forward would really make life interesting.

I'm not sure the defender is worth 30 points either, but it has some things going for it.

Carrying 3 hull and 3 shield behind 3 agility is no small thing, especially since it is protecting 3 Attack.

Now, what do we about the dial? We've seen 3 if it's maneuvers. It has a red 1-turn, a green 5-straight, and a white K-turn, speed unknown.

What this tells me:

The defender is not a swarm ship like a TIE fighter. It (likely) lacks the maneuverability of an interceptor. It does not have the survivability or tank strength of the Firespray. It is a dash-and-go strike fighter. The closest thing we have to this currently is the A-Wing, but the A-wing is more fragile and carries less firepower. It's strengths will see it fly in from the sides of a formation, deal a powerful shoot from out of arc, then fly past the formation and reset to strike again.

The ships in wave 4 are meant to make more players play mixed-ship and mixed-PS lists. The defender seems to be imagined as a strike fighter to accompany a TIE swarm. Strength being it is not in arc as much as the more clunky Firespray. The defender, the phantom, and the E wing will not be strong in groups of just themselves, they are designed as superiority craft to supplement other mixed ship builds.

My two cents.

The Defender will probably have a "speedy" dial with loads of green in the 3, 4 and 5 maneuvers. If this will be an advantage we still need to see. I usually prefer short maneuvers for positioning during mid-game combat and mostly use the faster ones in the early parts of the game for setting up my attack pattern.

The Defender will come with the "Predator" elite skill upgrade card. What it does is still to be announced. But since it can be transferred to any other ship/pilot with an elite skill Preadtor doesn't really make the Defender better than anyone else (unless it's a skill upgrade that uses something the Defender is specifically good at).

I hope something unannounced will change my mind but 3 bare Defenders in a match against 3 bare Bounty Hunters in Firesprays doesn't sound fair. If Onyx Sq. pilots are PS3 at 32 points we are almost equal points wise. I don't expect the Defenders to stand a chance against that.

I really think they want us to consider more mixed squad options.

I hope the dial was good, until now its seems that the white k-turn have a "penalization" because will be other red maneuvers on it.

I really think they want us to consider more mixed squad options.

But we'll see it in time.

I really think they want us to consider more mixed squad options.

This has not been the strongest point on Imp builds, and I dont see that it will change. Perhaps its for the better. But I'm worried about Defender too. Surely it will be great addon for casual/themed play but for tournament competitive play...? Hardly with that base cost, unless there is something really unexpected tricks unrevealed.

But we'll see it in time.

Oh, I don't disagree with you as a plaer, I just think that is their intention or hope as developers. The players will do what players do.

FFG hasn't failed us yet. It's normal for older things to fall out of the meta, as new options take hold. We shall see.

B Wing 3/1/3/5 -22

T Def. 3/3/3/3 -30

So there attack and hull are the same, the defender has more agi and the b-wing more shield. I would say that the points are just right for both ships. The defender is no way over costing simply based off the stats. If you match the two ships on the field the defender will eat the b-wing off the simple fact you have more def dice, if each round both ships roll perfect defense rolls the tie defender will win.

Second thought Ion cannon. So if it can k-turn that is going to allow for the a free shot on the b-wing with out a return fire from the b-wing. If you alt ion, primary the bwing does not stand a chance. In short the defender is going to be a dark horse against any ship. If it was any cheaper say 22 or 25 you would break the game.

B Wing 3/1/3/5 -22

T Def. 3/3/3/3 -30

So there attack and hull are the same, the defender has more agi and the b-wing more shield. I would say that the points are just right for both ships. The defender is no way over costing simply based off the stats. If you match the two ships on the field the defender will eat the b-wing off the simple fact you have more def dice, if each round both ships roll perfect defense rolls the tie defender will win.

Second thought Ion cannon. So if it can k-turn that is going to allow for the a free shot on the b-wing with out a return fire from the b-wing. If you alt ion, primary the bwing does not stand a chance. In short the defender is going to be a dark horse against any ship. If it was any cheaper say 22 or 25 you would break the game.

And Yes, 1on1 the defender is better. But Defense dice matter more 1 on 1 than in team games due to the ability to reliably hold your token for defense.

I have had this thought myself, but my comparison point was not the B-wing, but rather the TIE Interceptor.

Base defender is 30 points, 3 hull 3 shield, PS1. For 29 points you can get a royal guard pilot with hull and shield upgrade: 4 hull, 1 shield, PS6, and you also get the boost and evade actions, and you can also bump it up to 32 points to add push the limit which is likely to make those 5 HP last longer by either focus+evade or the ability to barrel roll and boost to safety using that higher PS

I am still excited to try the defender out, especially with an ion cannon, but it can seem a bit underwhelming when you really think about it.

Until its on the board and play tested we don't know if its any good or not.

Personally I think the fact that is also on a small base needs to be taken into consideration when trying to compare it to the firespray. It can far more easily navigate asteroids which makes it a better formation flying assault ship.

I still think the phantom takes the roll of the flanker but this thing is probably going to be my new go to for assault ships replacing the bounty hunter in most of the lists I run one.

I don't think anyone was saying the defender should be 22 or 25 points. I actually think it should be 27 or 28 points and I am comparing it to the Ewing. Both should have good dials E-wing has one less hull but an astromech and system upgrade slot which is better then sporting a cannon upgrade.

Edit: My opinion is based off of what we do currently know. I realize we don't know everything yet and it could potentially be competitively costed.

I have had this thought myself, but my comparison point was not the B-wing, but rather the TIE Interceptor.

Base defender is 30 points, 3 hull 3 shield, PS1. For 29 points you can get a royal guard pilot with hull and shield upgrade: 4 hull, 1 shield, PS6, and you also get the boost and evade actions, and you can also bump it up to 32 points to add push the limit which is likely to make those 5 HP last longer by either focus+evade or the ability to barrel roll and boost to safety using that higher PS

I am still excited to try the defender out, especially with an ion cannon, but it can seem a bit underwhelming when you really think about it.

Issue being that 3 Agility does not make up for 2 Shield and 8 points. Not at all. As soon as it lacks a focus the Defender is down in 4-5 attacks. Even less at range 1. The B wing is almost exactly the same. It goes down in 4 attacks without focus. (Assuming all attacks at range 2 by 3 attack ships with a focus or TL and no crits.(Because when under focused fire the offensive ships will strip a token pretth quick. In many ways this minorly exaggurates longevity on the defender due to the fact some of the statistical defense rolls will be wasted by rolling them against blank attack die.) For ships with the same offensive firepower an 8 point difference and barely better survivability seems a bit much.

Assuming the Defender starts its turn with a focus token, it would take an average of 7-8 Range 2 attacks from ships with 3 Attack to take it down. (A focus token cancels an average of 1.3 damage; since no list with 3 Attack can make more than 5 attacks per turn, the attackers effectively need to do 3 + 3 + 2*1.3 = 8.6 damage to kill the Defender.)

Compare that to 4-5 attacks from the same 3-Attack squad to kill a B-wing, and the Defender's value in comparison to a B-wing starts to become a little clearer.

Issue being that 3 Agility does not make up for 2 Shield and 8 points. Not at all. As soon as it lacks a focus the Defender is down in 4-5 attacks. Even less at range 1. The B wing is almost exactly the same. It goes down in 4 attacks without focus. (Assuming all attacks at range 2 by 3 attack ships with a focus or TL and no crits.(Because when under focused fire the offensive ships will strip a token pretth quick. In many ways this minorly exaggurates longevity on the defender due to the fact some of the statistical defense rolls will be wasted by rolling them against blank attack die.) For ships with the same offensive firepower an 8 point difference and barely better survivability seems a bit much.

Assuming the Defender starts its turn with a focus token, it would take an average of 7-8 Range 2 attacks from ships with 3 Attack to take it down. (A focus token cancels an average of 1.3 damage; since no list with 3 Attack can make more than 5 attacks per turn, the attackers effectively need to do 3 + 3 + 2*1.3 = 8.6 damage to kill the Defender.)

Compare that to 4-5 attacks from the same 3-Attack squad to kill a B-wing, and the Defender's value in comparison to a B-wing starts to become a little clearer.

I see what you did, but that changes things about as much as my overstatement of the use of defense dice. We're still paying 8 points for a single extra attack over a B-wing and a theoretically better dial. And the 22-30 point range is a big one. That better be one hell of a dial. (Also, it makes the Defender less offensively powerful due to having to save it's focus for defense. B-wings don't have to do that.

If you want to math it out, this is the easiest way. The top part of this chart shows average hit rates of attack vs defense.

3 Focused attack dice vs 3 Focused evade dice averages .638 hits per attack getting thru. 6 hit points divided by .638 is this: 6/.638=9.4 attacks, assuming both sides have focus. If the defender (who in this case, is the TIE Defender), does not have focus, the average hit rate increases to 1.217. 6/1.217=4.9 average attacks.

Now, I hate math winging because dice don't fit into consistent mathematical hit averages, and players break the math. Different ships play differently, and therefore you cannot streamline them all into the same math. But, if you consider the averages here, it takes about 5 attacks to kill an unfocused defender, and 6.5 attacks to kill a Firespray, to which I compare only because of the similar cost, not its function in gameplay. So, the Firespray is more survivable, but not as much as it may seem. It is also slower and has a larger base, so it will be attacked more often. The defender's strength will be its ability to stay out of front arcs, albeit by different tactics than more agile ships like interceptors.

As with my previous post, I am only trying to be objective. I want to see the dial and the cards before I will make any sort of judgement. I will agree that it is expensive, but it may yet be worth the cost. It could also be grossly overpriced. At this point, either are equally possible, but FFG hasn't failed us yet. Ships have fallen out of the meta as new ships release, but they haven't yet released any single completely uncompetitive ship. And as the defender comes in an expansion like any other, it will likely be worth it for the cards in the package.

FFG messed up with the defender if it does indeed have a 1 PS card.

Straight from the wookiepedia:

" Imperial High Command decided that defender pilots would only be selected from TIE interceptor pilots who had flown at least twenty combat missions and survived. We're either the best pilots in the Imperial fleet or the luckiest. " Rexler Brath

They didn't put noobs in a defender. So canonically it doesn't make sense that there is a 1 PS card. But I think the Defender will be just fine.

Maybe it has a straight 6 white manuver that would outclass even A-wings in speed. If this thing is truely so fast that the three manuvers are green it might not be out of the question. A straight 6 white could get you out of trouble in a hurry. Adding the one template to the front of the 5 is not hard to do and nothing says that they couldn't put two never before seen manuvers on the dile. It would add versatility to the ship without being overpowering, but still be a useful trick on occasion. Drop a turret on it and fly it right past your opponent's fleet before they have a chance.

A focus token on 3 dice cancels(statistically) .75 damage over an unfocused attack. Not 1.3. (5/8)*3-(3/8)*3. That's a single extra hull.

The average number of eyes on 3 defense dice is indeed 0.75, but the average number of eyes on a single roll is not the same thing as the average value of a focus token. You don't usually spend focus tokens on results with 0 eyes (well, that's an assumption--I should say that I don't usually spend focus tokens on results with 0 eyes).

As a result, when you're looking at the average value of a focus token against multiple attacks, you average not over all possible results, but over the results where at least one eye appears. That's (1*0.4219 + 2*0.1406 + 3*0.0156) / (0.4219 + 0.1406 + 0.0156) = 1.2972.

Of course, you also have to account for the fact that you get at least one eye result only about 58% of the time. If you're attacked just once, that focus token turns out (not coincidentally) to be worth 58% * 1.3 = 0.75. But if you're attacked twice, you have an 82% chance to spend your focus token, and it's worth 82% * 1.3 = 1.1. If you're attacked three times, you have a 92% chance to spend it, and it's worth 92% * 1.3 = 1.2, and so on.

(This is why, incidentally, it's typically better to focus with 3 Agility than to evade if you're likely to be attacked multiple times.)

All of this math-wing, lest we lose the thread, is in support of the fact that the Defender's 3 Agility and 6 hit points are actually a lot more effective than the B-wing's 1 Agility and 8 hit points--almost twice as effective, under fairly typical circumstances.

FFG messed up with the defender if it does indeed have a 1 PS card.

Straight from the wookiepedia:

" Imperial High Command decided that defender pilots would only be selected from TIE interceptor pilots who had flown at least twenty combat missions and survived. We're either the best pilots in the Imperial fleet or the luckiest. " Rexler Brath

They didn't put noobs in a defender. So canonically it doesn't make sense that there is a 1 PS card. But I think the Defender will be just fine.

I just assume PS is a combination of individual pilot skill and the difficulty of piloting the ship. Luke Skywalker in an A-Wing might be PS 6, for example.