A force user can increase the range at which he can use the Move power by one range band for each level of the Range upgrade he has, multiple activations of the Range upgrade are possible as long as a Force point is spent for each.

My question is how this is effected by Scale? Since all of the Personal scale range bands are included in the Close Planetary scale range band when can a Force user Move objects at farther than Close range at Planetary scale? Is it even possible for them to do so under the EotE rules?

I could see it maybe being possible if they took the Range upgrade three times (allows them to reach Extreme Personal scale range for one FP) and rolled two Force Points. One point to activate Move for a silhouette 0 object, one point for Extreme Range Personal/Close Range Planetary, then any remaining points (from having Force Rating 2 or three if the character also has the Force Rating Talent from the Force Sensitive Emergent Talent Tree in AoR) could be used to either extend the Range (I would think no more than 1 Planetary Scale Range band per Force point) or increase the silhouette of the object moved.

If all four Strength upgrades are purchased along with Force Rating 3 and the character rolls 6 Force Points available then it would be possible to Move a Silhouette 8 capital ship at possibly up to Medium Range. If the GM is extremely generous and allows the character to use planetary scale range bands while in space then it becomes possible to Move that starship at Extreme Range on Planetary Scale! A level of ability attainable at a mere 300 EXP if the character develops no other abilities.

You won't like the answer, but I'm thinking wait until F&D for the answers. Now prepare for the hordes to unleash their opinions................

I could see this as possible (assuming the GM allowed the personal->planetary range thing) but 300XP invested to MAYBE be able to do this if you roll solid double pips... kinda out there...

Yeah, that's my thinking too. The question was raised for me by the "Are Force Users more powerful" thread. So I went back to the core book and tried to see what would be needed to move a starship in orbit like the "true Jedi" have been known to do.

Well "True Jedi" have also been known to walk through walls, sever people from the force, and create uber-bombs from nothing more then hate and dirty underpants... And look what happened when they tried to convert that into a game...

The "true Jedi" is from the core rulebook page 283 "and true Jedi have been known to hurl starships about with the Force."

I'd probably go with your Extreme Personal = Close Planetary, and then go from there, where you would use the same conversion to advance through Planetary scale: each "set" of Extreme Personal activations would allow for one additional Planetary range band.

The rules for range bands already include moving from personal to planetary. I believe its covered in the section on planetary ranges. So yes, you can reactivate the range upgrades enough times to get to planetary scale, but no, your Force rating isn't going to be high enough to generate the minimum 3 or 4 dice worth of points you need to do it.

Double-light pips occur on three sides of a d12. That means you have a 25% chance per die of rollng double light pips, and from there it's a simple matter to get to get 3 or 4 pips even at Force rating 2. Padawans hurling capital ships at planetary ranges bands needs to NOT happen. Personally, I'm keeping stuff like this capped at one activation per roll untill I see Force and Destiny because I much prefer Star Wars to DBZ.

I still say that, while possible, it's not a simple matter. You need a bare minimum of a Force rating of 3 and hundred and hundreds of XP solely in talents and powers in order to throw capital ships at planetary range. And that's assuming the best possible roll in the best possible range/silhouette combination. A 3:12 chance on every die isn't that hot, considering I've seen it take an entire party (when rolling Destiny) to roll even close to high enough to do this, and that included some dark side points.

I don't see the point in placing a cap on it out of fear when we have yet to see this become an issue. The rulebook says updates can be activated multiple times, pending a high enough roll. We're far more likely to see that happening with less experienced Force users doing more mundane things (like lifting a speeder from across the room) than more powerful ones. Can people please wait for this to actually be a problem before reacting to it instead of all of these groundless fear-based reactions?

The rules on range bands state that ALL of the personal scale range bands are included within planetary scale "Close" range. The only other note about characters interacting with Planetary range bands is that it is impossible to use a maneuver to engage a target at Planetary scale Close range, the distances are too great.

This makes it possible to argue that using Move on a starship in orbit is impossible because the range is too great.

See my first post above for what is required have even the possibility of attempting this feat. I do wonder has anyone had something like this actually come up as an issue in play, or is it all based on "simulations"?

I made a mistake in my maths, it should be 350 experience points to acquire the needed abilities. Now, who wants to play a character with no upgrades to Attributes, no upgrades to skills, no Talents, nothing but working towards this level of power in Move? I think it is a paper tiger.

This is already a problem. Granted the odds of hitting 3 to 4 light side pips with Force rating 2 hover around 25% or so, but that still means that with four or five rounds of effort (about 5 minutes time in-game) even a padawan can hurl capital ships into orbit. That's BROKEN, period.

But more importantly, it doesn't reflect the Star Wars universe. I haven't changed the rules out of fear or spite, I changed them out of respect for the source material. Luckily my players feel the same way. It bothers them just as much as it bothers me to see a poor reflection of how the Force works in the RAW.

But it's all good, yo. This is PRECISELY why Force and Destiny is coming out last. FF is doing right by me even if I have to house rule a thing or two!

Until Force and Destiny tells us otherwise I am happy capping Force powers at Extreme Personal Range. This still leaves the possibility of moving something the size of a Capital Ship, but it won't be going far and the Force user will have to standing right next to it.

As a further limitation since large starships are treated as multiple sections for combat purposes, the Force user might be required to Move all sections at once. This would drive the experience costs for the feat even higher.

Frankly, Last One Standing bothers me more... Especially as it is a much cheaper ability to obtain.

I also cap the Strength upgrade at one activation; Silhouette 4 is the most in-universe Force users can lift without seriously huge amounts of training and power. I've only ever seen master level characters move capital ships, and even then it takes monumental effort -- perhaps best represented by a Discipline check -- rather than just luck and/or time. (Although those can factor in as well.)

On a related note, check out the marksman barrel attachment on page 190. That can give a blaster rifle user 2 ranks of Sniper Shot, which by definition would increase its range to the planetary scale. So personal scale DOES turn into planetary scale, although if you ask me anyone who wants to snipe a target at a planetary range bands needs a spotter with binoculars as well as a VERY high-powered scope to even attempt to make the shot.

Fear and spite, my friends, fear and spite. While you say you are changing the rules to respect the source material, you are forgetting that Luke and Vader detect one another in Jedi at planetary range, or that Obi-wan feels a disturbance in the Force at planetary range when Alderaan is destroyed, or that Luke is able to communicate with Leia in Empire at what I would deem farther than extreme range (and thus on the very small side of the planetary range). And don't give me any if that "Luke is a special case" crap. Source material is source material. O don't have to look into the crazy BS from Force Unleashed of KOTOR to see that Force users aren't limited to what is 20 feet in front of them.

No, this is not a problem, because no one has yet reported a player throwing a capital ship at someone at planetary range each and every action without recourse. The odds of doing this with a Force rating of 2 are not 25%. That's not how odds work. If it were even possible with such a low Force rating, the odds of rolling both dices with 2 light side points is closer to 10 or 15%, if that high. So show me with facts that this is already a problem, and I will glandly allow you to continue with your god complex that you know and see all and are wiser and greater than the game designers. Until then, I'll keep playing by the rules (which, by the way, already say that you can activate multiple upgrades without artifical caps or restrictions).

Tired of this crap showing up in every, single thread, discussion, and mention about the Force. It's a lot easier and more fulfilling to work with you players than it is to block them at every single turn any time they try and explore something in the game.

I'm just trying to explore and clarify what the RAW actually do and do not allow vis a vis the Move power. As I noted it costs over 300-350 dedicated EXP to even open the possibility of using Move on a capital ship at planetary ranges.

I am also quite skeptical that using Move on ships in orbit has been an issue in actual play for anyone yet. I notice on a lot of RPG boards endless electrons are spilled over "theoretical" issues that have never come up in actual play.

I'd go with some sensibility here. I mean how far can you actually see, and I mean without visual aids? Up to extreme I'd say. Now, I'd allow someone to throw something that far, even further perhaps, but beyond extreme range you probably have to start to take the curving of the planet into account if you want to pick something up. Of course in space one could argue that one can see even further, or a ship in low orbit... fair enough, but I'd cap it at extreme (close planetary/space range band), until F&D suggests something else at least. No matter that the rules could indicate an opening for abuse.

Granted, if you have sense and its range upgrades maxed out, perhaps I'd be willing to let you go beyond what you can see, but that is such high-level play that I doubt I'll see it in my games for force user, at least not before F&D is released.

ScooterinAB is takes this issue really personally for reasons unknown. He also thinks he can set conditions on what I'm "allowed" to do even as he finger points about so-called "god-complexes" in people he's never met running games he'll never play. Nevertheles, I'll play his game using concise logic, and for bonus points I'll even include why this conversation is relevant to the Beyond the Rim module (which I happen to be currently concluding). But for now, drinking and revelry is at hand, so stay tuned!

P.S. I LOVE this game, this forum is great, and I wish happy gaming for everyone. Don't be a jerk to me and I'll extend that same courtesy.