Boost and Barrel Roll are covered under the rules for not performing two of the same action in one turn, not the rule about using the same card effect only once per turn. If a card came up that allowed a free boost or barrel roll and didn't specify that they were actions, you would be able to use them multiple times per turn. Spending a cloak token to decloak is not an action though and falls under the same rules for spending multiple focus tokens per turn. If you have two focus tokens from Recon Specialist you can spend one to attack and another to defend. Same deal with cloak tokens.

Isn't that the implied thought with 'card effect'

Implied is a dangerous word to use when interpreting rules, as it is a statement of subjectivity.

Look at it another way - Boost or Barrel roll are both covered on rule cards, right? Is anyone arguing that they are not covered under the rule about 'card effects' only being allowed once per trigger?

But Fire Control System and Gunner allow you to target lock the same ship multiple times.

FCS is WAAAAAAAY off base to this argument. Each attack is a different trigger, and allows you to acquire a target lock.

If a card came up that allowed a free boost or barrel roll and didn't specify that they were actions, you would be able to use them multiple times per turn.

Note that he didn't say once per turn - he said once per trigger. Big difference.

We don't actually have any examples at the moment where anyone would want to spend multiple tokens on the same trigger, so I don't think anyone's tried yet. But I think the blanket statement that "Of course you can spend all the tokens you have!" are misplaced. A token is generally a requirement to do something, but I don't think that having to spend a token isn't inherently different than any other game effect, and thus limited to once per trigger.

If you're digging at the difference between a card effect and any other effect, honestly you're on very shaky ground.

Isn't that the implied thought with 'card effect'

Implied is a dangerous word to use when interpreting rules, as it is a statement of subjectivity.

Look at it another way - Boost or Barrel roll are both covered on rule cards, right? Is anyone arguing that they are not covered under the rule about 'card effects' only being allowed once per trigger?

Boost and Barrel Roll are covered under the rules for not performing two of the same action in one turn, not the rule about using the same card effect only once per turn. If a card came up that allowed a free boost or barrel roll and didn't specify that they were actions, you would be able to use them multiple times per turn. Spending a cloak token to decloak is not an action though and falls under the same rules for spending multiple focus tokens per turn. If you have two focus tokens from Recon Specialist you can spend one to attack and another to defend. Same deal with cloak tokens.

They certainly are if you're looking at someone like Turr Phenir.

And RecSpec doesn't apply - spending two focus tokens a turn is two different triggers - an attack roll and a defense roll - and is completely different.

But can you spend multiple focus tokens on the same attack roll?

We actually don't know for sure. I don't believe anyone has ever asked the question.

But can you spend multiple focus tokens on the same attack roll?

We actually don't know for sure. I don't believe anyone has ever asked the question.

But can you spend multiple focus tokens on the same attack roll?

We actually don't know for sure. I don't believe anyone has ever asked the question.

That one never has come up, because I don't believe there is currently any reason that you would even want to.

A better question would be - if you could have more than one EVADE token on you at one time, could you spend more than one evade token per attack?

It's also worth pointing out that the card text says "You may spend a cloak token," singular, immediately before decloaking. Grammatically that would at least somewhat argue against spending multiple cloak tokens during that same window.

Focus also uses that wording.

But can you spend multiple focus tokens on the same attack roll?

We actually don't know for sure. I don't believe anyone has ever asked the question.

I'm surprised it's never come up in reference to Garvin. In combination with Kyle, at least, I could envision a scenario where he might want to do that. Too bad! That would be a great precedent here.

I'm surprised that's never come up. I don't think I've ever seen anybody attempt to pass off multiple focus tokens with Garven before. Interesting.

Focus also uses that wording.

Right, and as I said; at least with focus tokens, prior to this Garven/Kyle question, I don't think anyone has ever attempted to argue in favor of spending more than one on the same dice roll.

Isn't that the implied thought with 'card effect'

Implied is a dangerous word to use when interpreting rules, as it is a statement of subjectivity.

Look at it another way - Boost or Barrel roll are both covered on rule cards, right? Is anyone arguing that they are not covered under the rule about 'card effects' only being allowed once per trigger?

Ah, but focus being an action only capable of being taken once a turn does not stop a player from spending more than one focus token in that same turn, or even in the same combat. Because spending focus tokens to generate their effects is not considered an action. And decloaking is explicitly noted as not an action.

And that's the real difference. Cloaking is an action, but decloaking is not an action. It's only requirements are:

1: the removal of a cloak token.

2: decloaking must be done before revealing the maneuver dial.

As long as both these conditions are satisfied, you could take as many decloaks as you want on a turn. Its just that cloaking being an action, you're very unlikely to cloak more than once a turn.

We don't actually have any examples at the moment where anyone would want to spend multiple tokens on the same trigger, so I don't think anyone's tried yet. But I think the blanket statement that "Of course you can spend all the tokens you have!" are misplaced. A token is generally a requirement to do something, but I don't think that having to spend a token isn't inherently different than any other game effect, and thus limited to once per trigger.

Sure we do. Evade tokens. If a ship somehow acquires multiple evade tokens, there is nothing in the rules preventing that ship from spending all evade tokens on the same attack.

A related question is: can a decloaked ship use advanced sensors to cloak and then immediately decloak?

Focus also uses that wording.

Having looked a little deeper, I think the big difference is that spending a focus isn't a trigger response. You have a Modification Step, and you have a list of things you can do during that step. You're explicitly allowed to do multiple things during that step, and nothing prevents you from doing "Spend a Focus Token" twice.

Decloaking is different. It's specifically linked to a triggering event (revealing your dial) so you're subject to the one-activation-per-trigger limitation.

So I'm inclined to think you could spend multiple focus (or evade) tokens during a single attack if you wanted to, but the double decloak wouldn't work.

A related question is: can a decloaked ship use advanced sensors to cloak and then immediately decloak?

That's not just a related question, that's the question that spawned the current debate.

But RAW, no there's nothing preventing a using AS to immediately recloak and decloak. Just don't expect to cloak again for the rest of the turn.

And that's the real difference. Cloaking is an action, but decloaking is not an action. It's only requirements are:

1: the removal of a cloak token.

2: decloaking must be done before revealing the maneuver dial.

Can you use Advanced Sensors to take multiple actions before you reveal your dial?

Any given ability which relies on a trigger can only activate once per triggering event. It's not just an open window to decloak any time you want as long as it's before the dial reveal - the dial reveal is an event, the triggered response is that you can spend a cloak token to decloak.

Sure we do. Evade tokens. If a ship somehow acquires multiple evade tokens, there is nothing in the rules preventing that ship from spending all evade tokens on the same attack.

There is currently no way in the standard game for this to happen, so I'd say the statement stands. In fact, the one special case which does allow it (the Senator's Shuttle escort mission) explicitly limits you to one token per attack. I wouldn't draw any conclusions concerning the base game from that, though.

But even then, as I said above, there's a difference in the rules between the various modify steps, which seem pretty open, and a triggered response, which is explicitly limited to a single response.

You could always recloak with Advanced Cloaking Device once you've unloaded on some poor hapless bastard.

You could always recloak with Advanced Cloaking Device once you've unloaded on some poor hapless bastard.

Not if you had used PTL earlier in the turn and taken a stress.

A related question is: can a decloaked ship use advanced sensors to cloak and then immediately decloak?

I would say once, absolutely. Both of those take effect 'immediately before revealing a maneuver' or whatever, so both would take effect at the same time and could be resolved in the order you chose.

A related question is: can a decloaked ship use advanced sensors to cloak and then immediately decloak?

That's not just a related question, that's the question that spawned the current debate.

This is actually a different question.

If you start uncloaked, there shouldn't be anything to stop you from using Advanced Sensors to cloak and then immediately decloak to get the barrel roll. One use of each (Advanced Sensors, Decloak) per the single trigger for the dial reveal.

The more contentious question is if you start cloaked, which would lead to two Decloaks off the same triggering event.

A related question is: can a decloaked ship use advanced sensors to cloak and then immediately decloak?

That's not just a related question, that's the question that spawned the current debate.

But RAW, no there's nothing preventing a using AS to immediately recloak and decloak. Just don't expect to cloak again for the rest of the turn.

It's not actually the question that spawned the debate. I don't think anyone is arguing you could not cloak and then immediately decloak, prior to moving, if you had advanced sensors. The debate is whether you're allowed to decloak TWICE (assuming you began the round cloaked) before revealing your maneuver.

Can you use Advanced Sensors to take multiple actions before you reveal your dial?

Any given ability which relies on a trigger can only activate once per triggering event. It's not just an open window to decloak any time you want as long as it's before the dial reveal - the dial reveal is an event, the triggered response is that you can spend a cloak token to decloak.

But the dial-flip itself isn't the trigger, the decloaking merely has to take place before the dial flip. At which time we also use Advanced Sensors, and at that point we're at the multiple simultaneous events step. On which the rules are rather clear: If multiple events happen at the same time, resolve them in any order.

And technically, we're only taking one action: Cloaking. Decloaking is explicitely stated not an action.

You could always recloak with Advanced Cloaking Device once you've unloaded on some poor hapless bastard.

Nope, a free cloak action is still a cloak action, and you can only perform one of the same action per turn, regardless of whether its free or not.

There is no way to Cloak with advanced sensors, decloak, and cloak again at the end of your attack. Keroko has it right. You cannot Cloak twice in one round. Not even as a free action.

You can use Advanced Sensors to take a cloak action and immediatley decloak for a super barrel roll/boost though. I don't see it as worthwhile most of the time, but it's a cool trick.

Can you use Advanced Sensors to take multiple actions before you reveal your dial?

Any given ability which relies on a trigger can only activate once per triggering event. It's not just an open window to decloak any time you want as long as it's before the dial reveal - the dial reveal is an event, the triggered response is that you can spend a cloak token to decloak.

But the dial-flip itself isn't the trigger, the decloaking merely has to take place before the dial flip. At which time we also use Advanced Sensors, and at that point we're at the multiple simultaneous events step. On which the rules are rather clear: If multiple events happen at the same time, resolve them in any order.

And technically, we're only taking one action: Cloaking. Decloaking is explicitely stated not an action.

You could always recloak with Advanced Cloaking Device once you've unloaded on some poor hapless bastard.

Nope, a free cloak action is still a cloak action, and you can only perform one of the same action per turn, regardless of whether its free or not.

Decloaking is NOT an action, no, but it is still a game effect you are attempting to do twice off of the same trigger event.

And really, as weird as it sounds timing wise, "Immediately before revealing a maneuver" is the trigger for Advanced Sensors and, now, spending a cloak token to Decloak.

Nobody is arguing that you can't use Advanced Sensors and Decloak - in whatever order you wish - before revealing your dial. The debate is whether you will be allowed to decloak twice before revealing your dial, and there is currently no good evidence as to whether you can or cannot spend multiple tokens of the same kind in response to the same event (ie; two evade tokens on a single attack, two focus tokens to modify a single attack or defense roll, even though one of them would have no effect on the dice).

But can you spend multiple focus tokens on the same attack roll?

We actually don't know for sure. I don't believe anyone has ever asked the question.

That one never has come up, because I don't believe there is currently any reason that you would even want to.

A better question would be - if you could have more than one EVADE token on you at one time, could you spend more than one evade token per attack?

It's also worth pointing out that the card text says "You may spend a cloak token," singular, immediately before decloaking. Grammatically that would at least somewhat argue against spending multiple cloak tokens during that same window.

I think of this like gunner or cluster missiles. If I have 2 focus tokens I could spend them both on either attack.

This logically works the same as the AS trick to me. There is a card allowing me to perform multiple events in the same window, allowing me to spend multiple of the same token.

Similarly, I can use Fire Control System and gunner to get and use multiple target locks on the same turn.

There is nothing in the rules I've seen that says I have to declare all possible interrupts at once before the dial is revealed. Its shadey, but until they clarify I don't see any reason why you couldn't.

I would say yes you can spend the multiple tokens. Based on the Garven Faq entry that you can spend tokens for no effect. I don't see doube super Barrel Rolls/Boosts as incredibly broken, so why not?

The only reasoning I can think of is the second cloak token not being present when declaring the order of simultaneous effects...