Ok, so your saying the flipping of the dial triggers the "before you reveal the dial" abilities? So if I assign a red maneuver to a phantom with PTL and Advanced sensors, I'll reveal my dial perform advance sensors, do a second action receive a stress, then do the red maneuver and a second stress? My opponent would not get the chance to pick my dial in this case as the trigger for that is when I reveal my dial. That seems really odd!

You still perform everything in the given order. The way I think about this is that "reveal the dial" is the trigger, and words like "before", "after", and "when" tell you the order to resolve the ability relative to the trigger. So basically with a "before" when you would reveal your dial, you first do the ability.

In this case, you'd do your Advanced Sensors+PtL to take two actions, and give you a stress. You then reveal the red maneuver, which triggers the "opponent gets to pick your dial" penalty.

It can certainly feel a little paradox-y... "How can I do something that relies on me revealing my dial before I actually reveal my dial?" But it seems pretty clear that's how they intend it to work.

Wait a sec... are you RAI not RAW?..... I think the world may explode!

Also I would be firmly against the double-decloak. I think it is relatively sensible to assume you get to decloak only once before revealing your dial even if your action was to cloak.

Also I am now quite interested in seeing the Phantom's dial. I think we will see that it is quite a slow ship a bit like the HWK. i.e. Max forward of a 3. Mostly to prevent it being abusively fast around the board - a Phantom with a forward 4 and engine upgrade could move the equivalent of a 9 forward on decloaking.

basic strategy, cloak immediately, and do not uncloak until you are confident you have outflanked the enemy. obviously difficult if you move early, but will be worth a try.

I don't fully agree with this. As far as I understand it, without fully testing it, this cloak device is more akin to a 'blinking' device rather than a full invisibility device.

Everytime you cloak, you place yourself on 3 different positions at the same time. Your cloaked model only marks 'the middle'. At your activation, you choose which of those 3 positions is more beneficial to you, and start your turn from that place.

Thus, you lose nothing by decloaking and then, cloaking again. In fact, by not doing so, you lose your chance to 'blink' to another position. Whether you decide to attack or not, you should decloak every turn. If you do not decloak, you lose that precious blinking, which by the way, will help you to outflank your opponents earlier.

In order to effectively counter the phantom, your opponent must plan what you will do from 3! different positions. TIE- Phantoms have 3 possible alternative futures, and you materialize only one of those at your activation. If you already have problems guessing what one ship will do, try multiplying that by 3. Fighting a single phantom is like fighting with three different ships at the same time. However, if you don't decloak, your opponent will be fighting against a single ship.

The issue is though, if you have a higher PS Rebel ship. They will see what you do, and have a rough idea on what actions to take to get back into range. Most likely the B-wing/A-wing will be the ones able to do this actions, and counter Phantom's movement. Because you can slap on Daredevil to the A-wings, giving them that much needed 1 hard turn toward the Phantom. With B-wings you could give Engine Upgrades and PtL for the Named pilots. Giving them the added movement from a boost and barrel roll action to dodge in closer to a Phantom. Throw in some Advanced Sensors for a B-wing they can then take the actions, and then flip there Dial to reveal a hard turn after a barrel roll/boost combination. Turret ships will also be able to just steer clear of the Phantom, as long as they stay in range 1-2 for Y-wing/Hwk and 1-3 for YTs.

Not sure how this is hard to understand:

Q: Can a card effect be used as many times as desired when a ship has the opportunity to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity . For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

The reveal of the movement dial triggers an opportunity to de-cloak, once. If you have the token, you have the necessary resource (or are in the correct state) to utilize the card effect. Perhaps you do some fun stuff to gain another token (or the way I like to think about it, put yourself back int the cloaked state) but that does not present a second opportunity.

The key difference lies in the word "card." Of which there is usually only one. However, tokens can come in multiples. And that's where the confusion grows.

In the case of decloaking and Advanced Sensors, that's two different effects triggered by the same event, which is a perfectly legal and even fairly common thing. What we're talking about is whether a single effect (decloaking) can be triggered twice by a single event, which the rules are really pretty clear about--as long as you don't get overly caught up in the fact that the FAQ uses the slightly ambiguous term "card effects" rather than, e.g., "triggered effects" or simply "effects".

However, FFG's careful use of "free evade action" rather than "assign evade token" (which is the usual wording, Whisper being a good example for focus) for SPA does hint at multiple tokens being spend as a possibility.

And there is precedent of a card effect being triggered multiple times. Two Mercenary copilots both activate on the same trigger, even though they have the same card effect. So having multiples excludes you from the single effect on trigger rule. Which, with the second cloak token being a different cloak token, means it's rulewise possible for double-decloak to work as well.

You have this shiny new Cloak Token, but what does it mean, what does it do, what is it's effect?

Oh, that's right there is a card that describes it:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/news/wave4/decloak.png

That's a "Card Effect" if ever there was one.

Wow. Just wow. That is the worst argument I have ever seen. So, is Boost a card effect or action?

Is it really worth all this fighting. No matter the arguments for, I just don't see FFG allowing the double decloak, no matter what you think the rules say.

I'd say it comes down to how you interpret "immediately before revealing its maneuver dial." To me, it implies that the very next thing you do after that is reveal your maneuver dial. If we go by the sequence above, you're not decloaking immediately before revealing your dial, you're decloaking immediately before using Advanced Sensors, in which case, you're not meeting the condition required to decloak.

I guess FFG needs to clarify how long "immediately" lasts. I bet we'll see an FAQ/errata saying that only one "immediately before" event can take place before any given trigger.

Weird, my copy of the Boost Action reference card says "Action" right on the title, and all over the card.

For lack of a better term, a De-Cloak "card effect" is a once per "opportunity" thing. Once time to do the non-maneuver/non-action per maneuver dial reveal.

The concept is akin to one type of each action per turn. One de-cloak. One Advanced Sensor action. One Acme Radar Raspberry Jam Launch from Eagle-5 as Barf's ability. Whatever.

Weird, my copy of the Boost Action reference card says "Action" right on the title, and all over the card.

For lack of a better term, a De-Cloak "card effect" is a once per "opportunity" thing. Once time to do the non-maneuver/non-action per maneuver dial reveal.

The concept is akin to one type of each action per turn. One de-cloak. One Advanced Sensor action. One Acme Radar Raspberry Jam Launch from Eagle-5 as Barf's ability. Whatever.

Exactly, just like the spending one focus token action.

I guess FFG needs to clarify how long "immediately" lasts. I bet we'll see an FAQ/errata saying that only one "immediately before" event can take place before any given trigger.

I agree with that thought....but if that does become the rule, advanced sensors would be all but useless on the phantom.

Not that this is a bad thing

I guess FFG needs to clarify how long "immediately" lasts. I bet we'll see an FAQ/errata saying that only one "immediately before" event can take place before any given trigger.

I agree with that thought....but if that does become the rule, advanced sensors would be all but useless on the phantom.

Not that this is a bad thing

We already know Munitions Failsafe will be useless on Lt. Blount, so it's not exactly without precedent.

New scenario:

At the beginning of a round the Phantom is not cloaked. Is the following allowed in that order?

1) advanced sensors for cloak action

2) decloak

3) reveal maneuver

I guess the real question behind this scenario is when exactly do the two abilities trigger? They have identical trigger conditions but they do not trigger simultaneously.

PTL is not even required. You may cloak as your only action.

Sure, but the example from a few pages back was getting like 7 bases of movement out of a decloak/cloak/decloak combo, by using a normal barrel roll.

Thus, you lose nothing by decloaking and then, cloaking again.

As for the double decloak in a turn thing, to me a strict reading of the rules would allow it, but I am absolutely certain that is a loophole FFG will FAQ very quickly. Also fairly cheesy and not something I would ever do.

Just to throw fuel on the fire though, since I haven't seen anyone mention it. What if using an "immediately before reveal" effect results in an additional "immediately before reveal" trigger? Like so

I am about to reveal my dial, so I trigger decloak by spending my token

Decloak effects

Now I am about to reveal my dial, so I trigger my advanced sensors

Perform cloak action

Now I am about to reveal my dial, so I trigger decloak

Not saying I think it actually works that way, I don't actually know, but that seems the strongest argument in favor of the shenanigans.

I'm surprised everyone seems to be discussing the possibilities in terms of how far you can go in one direction. a decloak 2 left, then adv. sen. cloak, then 2 forward, then dial reveal could land you in a lot of different places. Also, tactically, if the opponent is expecting you to end up elsewhere, and you could decloak, 2 left, adv sens cloak, decloak 2 right and end up back where you started.

This thread is exactly why this card was "leaked." Now FFG has all the arguments made and can make a clear and easy decision for the FAQ, without having to spend man hours and budget to game it out.

Either that or it is all an elaborate April Fool's Day joke.

This thread is exactly why this card was "leaked." Now FFG has all the arguments made and can make a clear and easy decision for the FAQ, without having to spend man hours and budget to game it out.

If it leads to a day 1 FAQ or even reprint of the card making this confusion clear, I don't mind one bit. Time well spent.

... or it is all an elaborate April Fool's Day joke.

Probably not. The cards look suspiciously like the ones from the wave 4 announcement.

This thread is exactly why this card was "leaked." Now FFG has all the arguments made and can make a clear and easy decision for the FAQ, without having to spend man hours and budget to game it out.

This is a non issue as they dont come here.. or at least we don't know they do...

Were I the CEO, I would have a couple people working the boards to create a presence here.. yes it's possible people would flood them with questions, but once the novelty of it wore off (a long time ago, by now) there could be some useful aspect of that presence. ?

This thread is exactly why this card was "leaked." Now FFG has all the arguments made and can make a clear and easy decision for the FAQ, without having to spend man hours and budget to game it out.

This is a non issue as they dont come here.. or at least we don't know they do...

Were I the CEO, I would have a couple people working the boards to create a presence here.. yes it's possible people would flood them with questions, but once the novelty of it wore off (a long time ago, by now) there could be some useful aspect of that presence. ?

Trust me, people never stop asking questions. If someone pops their head in even once, demands for answers will only grow louder with silence.

Well... maybe they are checking the forums often...

But they are cloaked

Well... maybe they are checking the forums often...

But they are cloaked

And they're limited to decloaking once per full annual eclipse that happens on a Thursday at the home office.

One response per trigger, after all.

Well... maybe they are checking the forums often...

But they are cloaked

I so wish it was true.. lol

Thus, you lose nothing by decloaking and then, cloaking again.

You loose an action. It's not much of a cost since you would almost always want to spend an action to super boost/roll anyway, but there might be times when you REALLY want a different action and decloaking then cloaking will prevent it.

As for the double decloak in a turn thing, to me a strict reading of the rules would allow it, but I am absolutely certain that is a loophole FFG will FAQ very quickly. Also fairly cheesy and not something I would ever do.

Just to throw fuel on the fire though, since I haven't seen anyone mention it. What if using an "immediately before reveal" effect results in an additional "immediately before reveal" trigger? Like so

I am about to reveal my dial, so I trigger decloak by spending my token

Decloak effects

Now I am about to reveal my dial, so I trigger my advanced sensors

Perform cloak action

Now I am about to reveal my dial, so I trigger decloak

Not saying I think it actually works that way, I don't actually know, but that seems the strongest argument in favor of the shenanigans.

Pretty sure this is the way it would "work"

This is a non issue as they dont come here.. or at least we don't know they do...

The only thing we know is that they don't post here. I can't imagine that they never visit, even if it's just to see how worked up we get about each tidbit released and laugh at us on their lunch break.

The not posting makes sense, because if you don't say anything there's nothing to hold against you. But not reading seems like a massive missed opportunity to get opinions and see how things are working. Plus that I swear that some of the FAQ comes right out of the rule discussions but in some cases answers to questions that I don't believe anyone has emailed to them.