"I roll my attack dice, I use a focus token to modify my roll, now I use a target lock to reroll my dice, and then, I use a focus token to modify my reroll"

Tah dah!!! Perfectly valid!.... Or not?

Not a particularly good idea, but perfectly valid. You don't get anything from spending multiple focus tokens to modify a single roll, even if you put a reroll between them.

As to the larger discussion, Buhallin etc. are completely right. The critical language is this bit:

A ship may spend a cloak token to decloak immediately before revealing its maneuver dial.

As Buhallin says, the latter bit is a trigger with a timing instruction, and the former bit is the effect. It's no different than any other triggered effect in the game, so the right analogy isn't whether you can spend multiple focus or evade tokens to modify a single roll--it's whether Soontir Fel's ability allows you to gain two tokens from a single stress.

There's just one trigger--revealing your dial. That means there's just one opportunity to spend the cloak token, which means you can decloak exactly once per round.

Whatever, people. I got my build figured out.

PS3 TIE Phantom

+Recon Specialist

+Advanced Cloaking Device

x3

We don't know what ACD costs yet, but If there are points left, I'll upgrade one to the higher PS or a named.

I'm leaning more towards 4x naked PS3 Phantoms myself.

"I roll my attack dice, I use a focus token to modify my roll, now I use a target lock to reroll my dice, and then, I use a focus token to modify my reroll"

Tah dah!!! Perfectly valid!.... Or not?

Not a particularly good idea, but perfectly valid. You don't get anything from spending multiple focus tokens to modify a single roll, even if you put a reroll between them.

And if Keyan Farlander wants to modify its attack roll again?.... and again? and again?....

You know, he may not be fully satisfied with the first modification... Better to spend another stress token or two to ensure the results...

Made you look the card, right?

"I roll my attack dice, I use a focus token to modify my roll, now I use a target lock to reroll my dice, and then, I use a focus token to modify my reroll"Tah dah!!! Perfectly valid!.... Or not?

Not a particularly good idea, but perfectly valid. You don't get anything from spending multiple focus tokens to modify a single roll, even if you put a reroll between them.As to the larger discussion, Buhallin etc. are completely right. The critical language is this bit:

A ship may spend a cloak token to decloak immediately before revealing its maneuver dial.

As Buhallin says, the latter bit is a trigger with a timing instruction, and the former bit is the effect. It's no different than any other triggered effect in the game, so the right analogy isn't whether you can spend multiple focus or evade tokens to modify a single roll--it's whether Soontir Fel's ability allows you to gain two tokens from a single stress.There's just one trigger--revealing your dial. That means there's just one opportunity to spend the cloak token, which means you can decloak exactly once per round.

Except that Soontir is a card effect. We know that only owrks once per trigger. Decloaking is a token effect, (The rules card is not a card in the game term sense). So we need to know about the tokens.

Whatever, people. I got my build figured out.

PS3 TIE Phantom

+Recon Specialist

+Advanced Cloaking Device

x3

We don't know what ACD costs yet, but If there are points left, I'll upgrade one to the higher PS or a named.

I'm leaning more towards 4x naked PS3 Phantoms myself.

I think the low-PS Phantoms are going to struggle pretty badly, particularly with ACD. Naked Phantoms might be a little better, because you get the extra body--but then I'm worried about the inequality between the number of incoming attacks and the number of outgoing ones.

Those windows where you're not cloaked are just going to be brutal.

It's probably worth mentioning that the FAQ entry is the only place where 'card effect' shows up, and it's in no way defined.

And 'token effect' to the best of my knowledge shows up nowhere at all. So we shouldn't put too much weight on those terms.

It's probably worth mentioning that the FAQ entry is the only place where 'card effect' shows up, and it's in no way defined.

And 'token effect' to the best of my knowledge shows up nowhere at all. So we shouldn't put too much weight on those terms.

Are you guys talking about getting multiple evade tokens from Stygium Particle Accelerator by way of using Advanced Sensors and Push the Limit to decloak, recloak and decloak again before revealing a maneuver dial? If so, that won't work because SPA says that you get to perform a "free evade action," and you can't perform the same action twice in a turn. So SPA will give you an evade token just once, no matter how many shenanigans you pull.

And if Keyan Farlander wants to modify its attack roll again?.... and again? and again?....

You know, he may not be fully satisfied with the first modification... Better to spend another stress token or two to ensure the results...

Made you look the card, right?

Nope, I have it memorized at this point. Farlander is another triggered effect, with "when attacking" as a specific trigger. You can spend one stress each time the trigger is satisfied, which means the only way to do it twice in one round will be with Gunner, and then only if you miss with your first (modified) attack.

Except that Soontir is a card effect. We know that only owrks once per trigger. Decloaking is a token effect, (The rules card is not a card in the game term sense). So we need to know about the tokens.

This is special pleading, though. There is no existing category of "token effects", and there's no reason to suppose that "card effects" must be limited to effects of upgrade cards only.

Or, to put it another way: decloaking is an effect that happens in response to a trigger, and requires you to spend a cloak token. Why should the rules here be different? What makes this triggered effect different from every other triggered effect in the game?

Are you guys talking about getting multiple evade tokens from Stygium Particle Accelerator

Not directly. It's more like this, assume you started off with a cloaked token.

You decloak and do a 2 barrel roll.

You use AdvSen and do a normal barrel roll.

You use PtL to preform a Cloak action, and get a stress

You then decloak a 2nd time, letting you do a 2nd barrel roll.

You then do the maneuver you had on your dial.

The card doesn't call the barrel roll from decloaking a barrel roll action, so it doesn't fall under the "can't do the same action twice" rule. Same goes for decloaking since that isn't an action.

Myself and others are of the opinion that you can't do that 2nd decloak, because you can only reveal your dial once. So the trigger for decloaking - reveal a dial, only allows you one decloak.

Whatever, people. I got my build figured out.

PS3 TIE Phantom

+Recon Specialist

+Advanced Cloaking Device

x3

We don't know what ACD costs yet, but If there are points left, I'll upgrade one to the higher PS or a named.

I'm leaning more towards 4x naked PS3 Phantoms myself.

I think the low-PS Phantoms are going to struggle pretty badly, particularly with ACD. Naked Phantoms might be a little better, because you get the extra body--but then I'm worried about the inequality between the number of incoming attacks and the number of outgoing ones.

Those windows where you're not cloaked are just going to be brutal.

Yep. But 1 evade token goes a long way towards keeping your models alive. Try flying a Tie fighter with the cloak/decloak rules and see just how hard it is for an opponent to 'guess' where you are going to turn up. If you do it well that 1 turn of confusion is enough to balls up their plans/minimize return fire.

basic strategy, cloak immediately, and do not uncloak until you are confident you have outflanked the enemy. obviously difficult if you move early, but will be worth a try.

Myself and others are of the opinion that you can't do that 2nd decloak, because you can only reveal your dial once. So the trigger for decloaking - reveal a dial, only allows you one decloak.

But in that case, decloaking and using Advanced Sensors is impossible in the first place, as that is using two actions on the same trigger as well.

Not sure how this is hard to understand:

basic strategy, cloak immediately, and do not uncloak until you are confident you have outflanked the enemy. obviously difficult if you move early, but will be worth a try.

Absolutely worth a try, and I think it'll be very successful if you have good spatial reasoning and are good at prediction (or can use, e.g., Intelligence Officer to "cheat"). But I think secondary weapons and turrets will still remain a huge threat, particularly if they shoot before you do.

Myself and others are of the opinion that you can't do that 2nd decloak, because you can only reveal your dial once. So the trigger for decloaking - reveal a dial, only allows you one decloak.

But in that case, decloaking and using Advanced Sensors is impossible in the first place, as that is using two actions on the same trigger as well.

In the case of decloaking and Advanced Sensors, that's two different effects triggered by the same event, which is a perfectly legal and even fairly common thing. What we're talking about is whether a single effect (decloaking) can be triggered twice by a single event, which the rules are really pretty clear about--as long as you don't get overly caught up in the fact that the FAQ uses the slightly ambiguous term "card effects" rather than, e.g., "triggered effects" or simply "effects".

Not sure how this is hard to understand:

Q: Can a card effect be used as many times as desired when a ship has the opportunity to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity . For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

The reveal of the movement dial triggers an opportunity to de-cloak, once. If you have the token, you have the necessary resource (or are in the correct state) to utilize the card effect. Perhaps you do some fun stuff to gain another token (or the way I like to think about it, put yourself back int the cloaked state) but that does not present a second opportunity.

The key difference lies in the word "card." Of which there is usually only one. However, tokens can come in multiples. And that's where the confusion grows.

In the case of decloaking and Advanced Sensors, that's two different effects triggered by the same event, which is a perfectly legal and even fairly common thing. What we're talking about is whether a single effect (decloaking) can be triggered twice by a single event, which the rules are really pretty clear about--as long as you don't get overly caught up in the fact that the FAQ uses the slightly ambiguous term "card effects" rather than, e.g., "triggered effects" or simply "effects".

However, FFG's careful use of "free evade action" rather than "assign evade token" (which is the usual wording, Whisper being a good example for focus) for SPA does hint at multiple tokens being spend as a possibility.

And there is precedent of a card effect being triggered multiple times. Two Mercenary copilots both activate on the same trigger, even though they have the same card effect. So having multiples excludes you from the single effect on trigger rule. Which, with the second cloak token being a different cloak token, means it's rulewise possible for double-decloak to work as well.

Not sure how this is hard to understand:

Q: Can a card effect be used as many times as desired when a ship has the opportunity to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity . For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

The reveal of the movement dial triggers an opportunity to de-cloak, once. If you have the token, you have the necessary resource (or are in the correct state) to utilize the card effect. Perhaps you do some fun stuff to gain another token (or the way I like to think about it, put yourself back int the cloaked state) but that does not present a second opportunity.

The key difference lies in the word "card." Of which there is usually only one. However, tokens can come in multiples. And that's where the confusion grows.

Exactly. And it is further complicated by the fact that two identical cards may BOTH trigger off of ONE trigger event (see Merc Copilot). So are two cloak tokens treated the same way as two Merc Copilots, or is it more like Farlander with multiple Stress tokens. If the former, you can spend both. If the latter, you may not.

So are two cloak tokens treated the same way as two Merc Copilots, or is it more like Farlander with multiple Stress tokens.

I'm of the opinion it's like Farlander. Because you only have 1 cloak, be it a card or token. It's not like you paid to have the same upgrade twice like you did for Merc Copilots.

But I think we'll have to wait until Wave 4 comes out and hopefully FFG upgrades the FAQ then with these questions.

So are two cloak tokens treated the same way as two Merc Copilots, or is it more like Farlander with multiple Stress tokens.

I'm of the opinion it's like Farlander. Because you only have 1 cloak, be it a card or token. It's not like you paid to have the same upgrade twice like you did for Merc Copilots.But I think we'll have to wait until Wave 4 comes out and hopefully FFG upgrades the FAQ then with these questions.

Agreed. It is a decidedly difficult situation to figure out. And might be an unblanced level of manueverability, but thematically it does create some cool effects. Can you imagine if we get a Phantom Pilot that can use banks?

I was about to say the same.

Evade tokens add a result to the roll.

Focus tokens modify results.

They are not the same type of effect, despite both being resolved in the same step. I see no problems in adding more than one result to a given roll [evade], however I'm not so sure about double modifying a roll by using two focus tokens... Because essentially, that's what is being proposed here. "I roll my attack dice, I use a focus to modify the roll once, and then, I use another focus to modify it again."

If we accept that, then, the door is open to accept this:

"I roll my attack dice, I use a focus token to modify my roll, now I use a target lock to reroll my dice, and then, I use a focus token to modify my reroll"

Tah dah!!! Perfectly valid!.... Or not?

I was just about to make this same argument.

A FAQ is certainly going to need to be required for sure but I don't see it as really a problem if you can cloak and decloak multiple times... sure it's a super mobility piece but is just going to make the game more dynamic and further separate the interceptor and the phantom. Besides, you're spending what to make this happen:

Whisper 32 + PTL 3 + AdvSen 3 +Adv Cloak (4+)= 40+... Seems gimmicky but maybe you make it work. At the end of it you're only a 4/2/2/2 with no cloak and stressed... pretty easy target... if you're able to put it in sights.

It all comes down to if the Reveal Dial is a trigger or just letting you know when you have permission to spend the token.

You decloak and do a 2 barrel roll.

You use AdvSen and do a normal barrel roll.

You use PtL to preform a Cloak action, and get a stress

Sounds good so far.

PTL is not even required. You may cloak as your only action.

You then decloak a 2nd time, letting you do a 2nd barrel roll.

You then do the maneuver you had on your dial.

No because ...

Myself and others are of the opinion that you can't do that 2nd decloak, because you can only reveal your dial once. So the trigger for decloaking - reveal a dial, only allows you one decloak.

... of that.

Q: Can a card effect be used as many times as desired when a ship has the opportunity to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity . For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

The reveal of the movement dial triggers an opportunity to de-cloak, once.

I concur.

"Card effect" is a term thrown out in that FAQ entry but never actually defined in any meaningful way. We don't know what it's meant to include or exclude. "Token effect," however, is a completely made up term that has never appeared anywhere to the best of my knowledge. So using an ill-defined term as proof of the existence of a completely illusory concept is a fairly risky way to go about interpreting the rules.

Decloaking is also inseparable from your Cloak action. It is a subroutine of it, if you will, which does not - cannot - exist independent of Cloaking. Cloaking is on the action bar of your pilot card, and simply has two accompanying rule cards that help define the ways in which cloaking (and the flip side of the coin) DEcloaking work.

In what way is that not a card effect?

basic strategy, cloak immediately, and do not uncloak until you are confident you have outflanked the enemy. obviously difficult if you move early, but will be worth a try.

I don't fully agree with this. As far as I understand it, without fully testing it, this cloak device is more akin to a 'blinking' device rather than a full invisibility device.

Everytime you cloak, you place yourself on 3 different positions at the same time. Your cloaked model only marks 'the middle'. At your activation, you choose which of those 3 positions is more beneficial to you, and start your turn from that place.

Thus, you lose nothing by decloaking and then, cloaking again. In fact, by not doing so, you lose your chance to 'blink' to another position. Whether you decide to attack or not, you should decloak every turn. If you do not decloak, you lose that precious blinking, which by the way, will help you to outflank your opponents earlier.

In order to effectively counter the phantom, your opponent must plan what you will do from 3! different positions. TIE- Phantoms have 3 possible alternative futures, and you materialize only one of those at your activation. If you already have problems guessing what one ship will do, try multiplying that by 3. Fighting a single phantom is like fighting with three different ships at the same time. However, if you don't decloak, your opponent will be fighting against a single ship.