But the dial-flip itself isn't the trigger, the decloaking merely has to take place before the dial flip

The dial flip actually the trigger. Any time an event is listed in the rules, the activation of the ability/rule is tied to that event. Arguing that before means "merely has to take place before..." is the same as arguing that after can be "Any time I want to after". This is what leads to things like "I use an action and trigger Push the Limit, I'll wait until the combat phase to take my second action."

Can you come up with any examples in the game which go by the sort of timing you're suggesting?

There is no way to Cloak with advanced sensors, decloak, and cloak again at the end of your attack. Keroko has it right. You cannot Cloak twice in one round. Not even as a free action.

Stygium would be batshit insane if you could do multiples. Decloak -> Free evade action -> Action phase Evade action -> PTL -> Cloak -> Free evade action for 3 evade tokens. Probably why the card says "free evade action" rather than "assign evade token."

I think the rules are unclear enough on starting cloaked -> decloaking -> advanced sensors cloaking -> decloaking that there really isn't going to be any sort of answer one way or another until we get an FAQ. Thankfully, I don't forsee that being nearly as useful as just starting decloaked -> advanced sensor cloaking -> and then decloaking, especially combined with Stygium Particle Accelerator. I'm looking forward to running a basic Sigma Squadron dude with AS/SPA to have the option of doing a crazy super barrel roll or boost and getting an evade token every turn before doing my action if I choose to.

There is no way to Cloak with advanced sensors, decloak, and cloak again at the end of your attack. Keroko has it right. You cannot Cloak twice in one round. Not even as a free action.

Stygium would be batshit insane if you could do multiples. Decloak -> Free evade action -> Action phase Evade action -> PTL -> Cloak -> Free evade action for 3 evade tokens. Probably why the card says "free evade action" rather than "assign evade token."

Can't take more than one Evade action per round.

Edit: Which is exactly what you're saying. Derp.

There is no way to Cloak with advanced sensors, decloak, and cloak again at the end of your attack. Keroko has it right. You cannot Cloak twice in one round. Not even as a free action.

Stygium would be batshit insane if you could do multiples. Decloak -> Free evade action -> Action phase Evade action -> PTL -> Cloak -> Free evade action for 3 evade tokens. Probably why the card says "free evade action" rather than "assign evade token."

Can't take more than one Evade action per round.

Edit: Which is exactly what you're saying. Derp.

No worries, I've been derping quite a bit myself today as well.

Despite all the rules weirdness, I'm more excited about the TIE phantom than I've been about any ship so far. Cloak plus that upgrade bar is just awesome.

So many things to like in the last 2 pages.. lol.. and I'm all out for the day.. aaaaasrrrrrrgghhhhhhh....

So... the question needs a definitive answer from the Dark Lords of the Sith.. can you decloak, then AS and cloak again, only to decloak once more.. there is enough on both sides to say yea, or nay.... quite the conundrum.

Part of me thinks it's a bit broken, but then again.. maybe not.. harsh to say the least. Side stepping the length of the game surface in one turn is quite powerful though. Interesting... very interesting...

But the dial-flip itself isn't the trigger, the decloaking merely has to take place before the dial flip

The dial flip actually the trigger. Any time an event is listed in the rules, the activation of the ability/rule is tied to that event. Arguing that before means "merely has to take place before..." is the same as arguing that after can be "Any time I want to after". This is what leads to things like "I use an action and trigger Push the Limit, I'll wait until the combat phase to take my second action."

Can you come up with any examples in the game which go by the sort of timing you're suggesting?

Ok, so your saying the flipping of the dial triggers the "before you reveal the dial" abilities? So if I assign a red maneuver to a phantom with PTL and Advanced sensors, I'll reveal my dial perform advance sensors, do a second action receive a stress, then do the red maneuver and a second stress? My opponent would not get the chance to pick my dial in this case as the trigger for that is when I reveal my dial. That seems really odd!

Ok, so your saying the flipping of the dial triggers the "before you reveal the dial" abilities? So if I assign a red maneuver to a phantom with PTL and Advanced sensors, I'll reveal my dial perform advance sensors, do a second action receive a stress, then do the red maneuver and a second stress? My opponent would not get the chance to pick my dial in this case as the trigger for that is when I reveal my dial. That seems really odd!

You still perform everything in the given order. The way I think about this is that "reveal the dial" is the trigger, and words like "before", "after", and "when" tell you the order to resolve the ability relative to the trigger. So basically with a "before" when you would reveal your dial, you first do the ability.

In this case, you'd do your Advanced Sensors+PtL to take two actions, and give you a stress. You then reveal the red maneuver, which triggers the "opponent gets to pick your dial" penalty.

It can certainly feel a little paradox-y... "How can I do something that relies on me revealing my dial before I actually reveal my dial?" But it seems pretty clear that's how they intend it to work.

So, despite the fact that I seem to have set off this whole thing with an observation about an insane possibility, as I thought about it I came to believe that it would be illegal (Crazy eh? Buhallin and I are on the same page!)

However, there IS one counterexample that might muddy the waters.

If a ship is equipped with two Mercenary Copilots, it CAN change two hits to crits at range 3. One trigger that sets off two identical effects. This is allowed because there are two separate sources that share the same name. So a single Merc Copilot can only go off once on a single trigger (attack at range 3), but there is no limit to the number of different Merc Copilots that could trigger from the same event despite the fact that they are identical.

So the question becomes, is decloaking twice by discarding two different cloak tokens considered to be two different sources using the same trigger, or is it considered a single source attempting to use the same trigger twice. A logical argument can be made either way, so this is an excellent place for an FAQ answer. Until then I would prefer to err on the side of caution and only allow a single decloak per trigger event.

I hope we can, as if I can only use 1 evade token per attack when there is finally a way to get 2(or will there not be... I'm unclear on the wording) I will be very dissapointed. I'd rather they Faq it to "you cannot expend a Cloak token immediatley after cloaking with Advanced Sensors because the token wasn't there before you started the pre-manuever reveal step" kind of functionality. But I liked the Advance Sensors Super Barrel Roll, and there isn't likely to be much reason for an extra Super Barrel Roll...

This thread was a lot more fun before there were rules.

However, there IS one counterexample that might muddy the waters.

If a ship is equipped with two Mercenary Copilots, it CAN change two hits to crits at range 3. One trigger that sets off two identical effects. This is allowed because there are two separate sources that share the same name. So a single Merc Copilot can only go off once on a single trigger (attack at range 3), but there is no limit to the number of different Merc Copilots that could trigger from the same event despite the fact that they are identical.

I think this is a different situation because dice modification effects don't actually have a trigger.

Looking at Step 3 (Modify Attack Dice), here are the bits I think are key:

During this step, players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify attack dice...

If a player wants to resolve multiple modifying abilities, he resolves them in the order of his choosing...

If the attacker has a target lock on the defender, he may return his pair of assigned target lock tokens...

If the attacker has a focus token, he may return it...

None of this has any sort of trigger to it (I don't consider the time gates like "When attacking..." as triggers). So the one-activation-per-trigger doesn't apply.

I think this is analogous to the Stress Step. A lot of us thought of stress as being a reaction to the maneuver, which is what caused a lot of the confusion with both Night Beast and Daredevil. But it's not - it's a completely separate step. It's the same thing here. Modify Attack Dice is a step where you have the opportunity to do things which affect the attack dice, but those things aren't dependent on rolling any dice at all. Heavy Laser Cannon makes another good counterexample, because it does trigger based on dice.

I think there are also any number of situations that we know or accept that follow this idea as well. We know Garven can spend focus even with no eyeballs, which means focus spending isn't dependent on the roll. I think most players accept that you could spend it even on a Blinded Pilot to have Garven pass the focus, and Kir Kanos could spend his evade to add a {Hit} even if he rolled no dice, which means none of those are dependent on actual dice even being rolled.

Finally, the specific ordering of defender modifying before attacker says that this is not a normal trigger situation. If everyone's potential for tokens and effects was triggered by the attack, or the roll, the normal timing resolution rules would apply - meaning that the player with initiative would go first. Since the rules for these steps don't even mention that, but do provide specific ordering, I think this is a solid read (but of course, I always think my reads are solid )

Especially since the Phantom still has its action (admittedly it can't barrel roll again if you pick that). Imagine this monster with an engine upgrade and a navigator in the crew slot...

I'm not 100% sure. It very specifically does not say "perform a barrel roll action", it says perform a barrel roll. One might argue they're the same thing, or it could just be their way of saying how you move. By now I think they know enough about their own rules not to make that mistake (forgetting to include the word Action in their text) and it may be intentional.

Especially since the Phantom still has its action (admittedly it can't barrel roll again if you pick that). Imagine this monster with an engine upgrade and a navigator in the crew slot...

I'm not 100% sure. It very specifically does not say "perform a barrel roll action", it says perform a barrel roll. One might argue they're the same thing, or it could just be their way of saying how you move. By now I think they know enough about their own rules not to make that mistake (forgetting to include the word Action in their text) and it may be intentional.

I agree with this. Without the "action" in there, it's not an action - same as Dutch and R5-K6 with their target locks. That's pretty much black-letter.

Might it be a mistake or misprint? Of course, but I think it's a rather bad idea to go off down that path. If it's a typo, they'll errata it. Until/unless they do, it's perfectly clear as written.

The real question for me is if you can do multiple things in between an action that happens "immediately" before revealing dial, and actually revealing the dial and moving.

So in sequence:

1. De-cloak

2. AS -barrel roll

3. PTL - Cloak

4. De-cloak

5. Reveal Maneuver Dial.

So in the sequence of events # 1 is clearly not "immediately" before #5 as there are a number of events in between the two.

There has been a lot of talk about this on this discussion, and in discussions about AS/PTL, and I get the feeling that it has been resolved on the forums. But I could not find any response from FFG on the topic.

IF it has been ruled that you can do multiple things "immediately" before: then I see no problem with using two de cloak tokens.

I still believe that the two things must take place back to back, with no actions of any kind in between them. (and yes, i know this is a can of worms that has long since been closed, but I still could not find the official rule on it.)

If you can have more than 1 focus token, theres no reason why you cant have more than 1 evade token.

Also 2 evade tokens would mathematically be superior to 2 green dice + 1 evade so, depending on cost the Styrgium might be the go to modification for 'low' PS Phantoms rather than the ACD

If you can have more than 1 focus token, theres no reason why you cant have more than 1 evade token.

But is there currently a way to gain multiple evades?

If you can have more than 1 focus token, theres no reason why you cant have more than 1 evade token.

But is there currently a way to gain multiple evades?

Not that I am aware of. But theres no upper limit on tokens of any kind so I dont see why evade would be a special case.

Unfortunately, there are two examples given in the FAQ and they work differently. One is a single trigger with multiple identical "sources" (in this case two Merc Copilots). The other is a single trigger (they say opportunity) with a single source. In the first case, you can use the effect multiple times. In the second case, you cannot. It also appears that they view the steps of the attack phase, in this case "when defending" as a single trigger event. Here are the relevant examples.

Q: If a ship has more than one copy of the

same card that does not require an action

to trigger its ability, can it trigger all of

those card abilities?

A: Yes. For example, when a ship equipped with two

Mercenary Copilots is attacking, it can change two

results to two results.

Q: Can a card effect be used as many times

as desired when a ship has the opportunity

to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity.

For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker

Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use

his ability once against each enemy attack.

So, while I agree with you Buhallin that we should probably only be allowed to use the decloak a single time, I can see the logical counterargument. It really boils down to whether this is considered two separate sources, or a single source with two tokens. Another example to support your and my position is Stress and Elusiveness. No matter whether Jendon is there to take your stress or not, you can only use it one time, so it isn't the stress token giving you the ability (ie: two different tokens, so two activations) it's the ability itself and it only has one chance to go off against each attack.

It seems like the most elegant solution is to consider "Cloak" as a single device. Therefore, it doesn't matter how many tokens that one device has available it can only be used once per "reveal dial" event.

Edit: It is also relevant that both of the FAQ examples take place during the "modify dice" steps, and are still limited to once per trigger. So there is clear precedent that a single source can only be used once during each attack, regardless of how many tokens it may have. Evade tokens may or may not work that way. They could be considered two separate "evades" in all ways, so you could use both. Alternately, they could mean your ship has two tokens it could spend, in which case your ship could only "do an evade" once per attack. Hopefully an FAQ will clear this up soon.

If you can have more than 1 focus token, theres no reason why you cant have more than 1 evade token.

Also 2 evade tokens would mathematically be superior to 2 green dice + 1 evade so, depending on cost the Styrgium might be the go to modification for 'low' PS Phantoms rather than the ACD

On a side note, nobody is arguing that you couldn't, at least theoretically have more than one evade token at a time, if you had a way of gaining a second one. The question is whether, having more than one evade token, you would be allowed to spend multiple evade tokens in response to a single attack. (That being sort of a side question to the cloak token question)

An evade action adds one evade. A focus action adds a token which allows you to modify dice, modified dice can't be remodified if I'm not mistaken.

Rerolled dice cannot be rerolled again. Dice can be modified as many times as you and your opponent wish. So, if Elusiveness causes a die to be rerolled neither you nor your opponent may reroll that die a second time. However, if a die is modified to an *eye* from a *hit* by Sensor Jammer, the attacker is free to modify it back to a *hit* with Focus.

I was about to say the same.

Evade tokens add a result to the roll.

Focus tokens modify results.

They are not the same type of effect, despite both being resolved in the same step. I see no problems in adding more than one result to a given roll [evade], however I'm not so sure about double modifying a roll by using two focus tokens... Because essentially, that's what is being proposed here. "I roll my attack dice, I use a focus to modify the roll once, and then, I use another focus to modify it again."

If we accept that, then, the door is open to accept this:

"I roll my attack dice, I use a focus token to modify my roll, now I use a target lock to reroll my dice, and then, I use a focus token to modify my reroll"

Tah dah!!! Perfectly valid!.... Or not?

"I roll my attack dice, I use a focus token to modify my roll, now I use a target lock to reroll my dice, and then, I use a focus token to modify my reroll"

Tah dah!!! Perfectly valid!.... Or not?

ept this:

Given that you can already use the TL to reroll your blanks before you use your focus... I don't see why we shouldn't let players waste a focus token.