Definition Object: "A material thing that can be seen and touched."

People are material things that can be seen and touched. We are objects – who shouldn't be objectified. But that's a different can of worms.

Even a strict reading of the power allows it to be used on people. I suspect that they were purposefully vague because different groups will want to treat this power differently. It's as much a question of gaming personality as it is a rules question.

No PC is gonna be OK with Darth Vader ripping his weapon away contemptuously. Yet we see it in Empire. In the movie it's dramatic and makes it clear that Han is hopelessly out matched. In an RPG we've taken away player agency and removed all interesting choices a PC might make.

Medium is the message. So what works in a movie may not work in a game and vice versa.

Few GMs will want the big bad evil guy to simply have his lightsaber yanked away by a PC. We never see it. The rules of the game allow it. This is one of those things Players and GMs will have to agree on. My opinion is: You can use force disarm to steal a rival's or a minion's weapon. You can't use it on a Nemesis.

For GMs who are worried about your rivals getting beaten up too easily, remember that you can always add more until the fight is as hard as you want it to be. Bastards have brothers (and cousins, parents, friends, lovers, and Broke-Back Mountain style lovers, etc.). You can have as many, "You shot Kenny!" moments as you like.

Notice how I'm not making a joke about seeing people as objects? 'm mature and stuff.

Notice how I'm not making a joke about seeing people as objects? 'm mature and stuff.

Nice to see that you've grown as a person

In so far as lightsabers not being yanked away by enemy Force users, that could also be a function of a Rebuke-type power. Or in Vader's case, he wanted to see what Luke could do in a fight, hoping for some kind of challenge. According to other sources, he was actually quite pleased that Luke put up as much of a fight as he did on Bespin and was almost able to hold his own for a while against a vastly more powerful and experienced opponent.

Maul's been described in the EU has being more focused on a physical victory, and was eager to test himself against a pair of Jedi in a straight-up fight rather than rely on mind-games or Force trickery. Dooku was still something of an honorable duelist, wanting to prove the superiority of his lightsaber skills in AotC, but was playing a role in RotS before realizing much too late that he'd been deceived and set up to be sacrificed to make way for Anakin as Sidious' true apprentice. Going by the novelization, the plan was that Obi-Wan would be killed (removing one of the few people that could truly influence Anakin's opinions), Dooku would surrender, with Grievous and the Separatist Council getting the blame for all the atrocities committed during the war, and the three of them would set about remaking the Republic into a Sith-led theocracy. Palpatine knew during his fights in RotS that he was going up against top-caliber opponents, and that wasting time on a Force disarm that wasn't likely to succeed could get him in trouble. Heck, he pretty much lost the fight against Windu; if Anakin had stayed his blade, Sidious could very well have died. And going up against a Jedi Master of Yoda's caliber left no room for mistakes; as it was, he got extremely lucky when the reflected Force lightning blew up in their faces... imagine if he'd not been able to grasp onto the edge of that pod when he got blasted back, or if Yoda had fallen a much shorter distance.

The RAW make it quite clear that Move works on people. See the "Force Powers and Narrative" sidebar on page 279. The example is given of a character using Move to catch a falling companion.

As for "Force Slamming" someone, or multiple someones, I think the first Control upgrade covers that situation well.

One could also make some guidelines in keeping with the movies.

A force user can't use force push/slam or disarm on an opponent he's engaged with. Using the force takes concentration in the movies and having a guy waving a laser sword in your face tends to disrupt concentration. If you can disengage long enough to get some breathing room (I'd suggest a maneuver plus a destiny point to make the terrain in your favor) you could try some Move tricks, but otherwise you have to fight it straight up.

Didn't Darth Maul Force Push Obi Wan off the catwalk in the Theed power... zone?

Looked like Engaged range to me.

He did. I agree that Maul was interested in testing his saber skill, but resorted to a Force Push when he began to lose. So far, the only way I've seen a Jedi stop a force push (though Anakin and Obi-Wan still got pushed) is by pushing back.

As I recall Maul steps back and "shoves" Obi-wan. As distances are highly narrative, I say he disengaged and used force push. But I'm probably reaching for some methodology to keep players from machine-gun slamming baddies.

Maybe he spent a destiny point to use force powers while engaged? Again a reach, but as a mechanic it mitigates players and GMs from using the game system to be boring.

It's cool when a player uses Move to "grab" two guys and slam them together. The first time anyway, but If every combat involves the same tactic it'll get old really fast.

Didn't Darth Maul Force Push Obi Wan off the catwalk in the Theed power... zone?

Looked like Engaged range to me.

Considering Mauls' hand was at barely a foot (if that) away from Obi-Wan's face, I'd call that being engaged with the target.

Obi-Wan then did the same thing to Anakin during their big fight in RotS, with their hands only a few inches apart before they both got flung backwards.

So being able to do a Force push/slam/thrust from engaged is backed up by the movies, which are indelibly part of the Star Wars canon

It's cool when a player uses Move to "grab" two guys and slam them together. The first time anyway, but If every combat involves the same tactic it'll get old really fast.

Same can be said of the Hired Gun/Heavy that always attacks using the Autofire quality on his heavy repeating blaster. Or the Colonist/Politico or Diplomat/Agitator that's using Scathing Tirade. It's the same tactic, over and over and over, and yet there's no rules that inherently punishes them for using that tactic.

Thats why I don't believe in the standard xp for all characters. While there should be bonus xp for creativity, I wouldn't be above less xp for a lack of creativity.

I just exploit the predictability. Throw something at them that breaks the pattern. Have an enemy observe them for a time then capitalize on this knowledge. No reason to let things stay boring.

So, I just read this thread seeing that we have a Force user that can now lift people and did so.

We hand waved the situation, but have been discussing it some...

Is this about correct, or would work well...

Trying to lift an unwilling target.

Discipline vs. Discipline with modifiers for range and Adversary when appropriate. So...

Situation: Medium range with a BBEG (Adversary 1, Willpower 2)

PCs Discipline vs. RP (Discipline with Adversary) + PP (medium range) = RPPP

I ask all this because we want to get a handle on this before we run into other force users that are most assuredly going to be looking for us in the near future.

I think you've made it more complicated than it needs to be Dex.

I'd stick with the Control Upgrade to hurl objects as the basis for the effect, bearing in mind that the Rang Upgrades only extend how far away you can move something from you position. The object to be hurled still has to be within Short Range of your position. So in the situation you posited, the Force user can't even try until he closes to Short Range.

Thanks

You can only force move something within short range? I must have missed that. Can some one point me to that post?

I don't know about posts but the range limitation is written in the basic rule description, CRB p. 284.

We do sort of see force push on people. Yoda did it on entering Palpatines office against the imperial guards.

I always thought of that scene as more of a Force Pimp Slap.....

I don't know about posts but the range limitation is written in the basic rule description, CRB p. 284.

The Range Upgrade says "Spend (one force) to increase power's range by a number of range bands equal to range upgrades purchased.

I assumed that meant you can move objects out to that upgraded range, and pick up objects out to that upgraded range. I see how it's worded, but I'm still surprised that Force users can't lift an object that's at medium range from them.

Why? Every single scene in the movies in which a force user is moving or affecting things they are pretty much within short range, bearing in mind range bands are not fixed yard sticks.

Was Luke's X wing within short range in Dagobah?

Yoda is about 20ish feet away from the X-wing on the left in that scene, it's hard to say exactly with perspective. Given the game handles ranges in generalities measuring isn't precisely needed and it's not really something that should be dwelt on. The point is everyone is pretty close to everything they start lifting with the Force in the movies. If your player is 35 feet away from the crate they're trying to lift, eh, no big deal, just let em lift it. Now if we are talking about 150 feet away, spend a free maneuver and get closer. No biggy.

Using Force Powers to harm living beings is NOT a Dark side act.

Yoda does it in ROTS, Luke does it in ROTJ, and Anakin and Obi Wan do it several times in TCW, in particular when fighting Cad Bane and various bounty hunters. I remember either Anakin or Ahsoka tossing Bane out of an airlock. As long as you're not using Dark Side specific powers, using the Force to kill is the same as using a lightsaber.

Force Push/Move Object is not a 'no-counter ' ability that the Jedi can just do over and over again without restraint or consequence. Yes, it pretty much does work on B-1 Battle Droids, like all the time, but that's because they suck.

In TCW and The Force Unleashed we see many in-universe counters to Move Object by mundanes ala Cad Bane, Boba Fett, Aura Sing and various Dark Troopers.

The main counter is Mag Boots, Grav boots or Jet Pack/Thrusters. I think in the second confrontation with Cad Bane, Bane manages to counter Force Pushes by using a combination of Mag Boots and Rocket Thrusters to simply counter the push E=MC2 style.

Since Mag Boots are actually fairly common spacer gear, I would say any Nemesis or Rival you intend to throw at your Force User PCs can pretty much have Mag Boots or Rocket Boosters, and maybe you can offer a Move check contested by Discipline, Vigilance or Resilience.

So we get the 'movie feel' Minions and unprepared NPCs get your typical no-contest Force Move, while anyone prepared for it would probably offer an opposed check.