This thread seems to have commonality with the "Interceptors are Dead (sp?)" thread. I wonder if what we are seeing is planned obsolescence from a company that makes money selling a product...Wave 1 came out and attracted customers, Wave 2 needed to be exciting and an improvement over Wave 1. Wave 3 comes out and is more exciting than Wave 2. As the Aces pack is realeased and plans for Wave 4 are spoiling the excitement surrounding it is making Wave 3 look tarnished.

Maybe that is the plan to keep people buying and keep the product fresh. Think of playing only Wave 1 and 2 ships and cards and such and see how Vader stacks up...

Planned obsolescence doesn't really enter into it when the Advanced has been considered sub-par since it was first released.

Also, I pray that FFG does NOT go with the power creep ideals of planned obsolescence. Thus far, every ship and every expansion is well useable, which is the mark of a well balanced game. If a ship becomes obsolete, the game is no longer balanced, and long-time customers get screwed.

This thread seems to have commonality with the "Interceptors are Dead (sp?)" thread. I wonder if what we are seeing is planned obsolescence from a company that makes money selling a product...Wave 1 came out and attracted customers, Wave 2 needed to be exciting and an improvement over Wave 1. Wave 3 comes out and is more exciting than Wave 2. As the Aces pack is realeased and plans for Wave 4 are spoiling the excitement surrounding it is making Wave 3 look tarnished.

Maybe that is the plan to keep people buying and keep the product fresh. Think of playing only Wave 1 and 2 ships and cards and such and see how Vader stacks up...

The amount of balance FFG has in this game, when compared with a lot of other miniatures games, is very impressive. Wave 1 ships are still relevant and will continue to be. The one major exception to that right now is the TIE Advanced. Vader isn't really ever considered part of that problem as his pilot ability is so strong that it makes up for being in the worst ship in the game, allowing him to play a bit more offensively than a normal version of the ship, as well as have other utility that can fit into a lot of lists (he is THE squad leader).

This thread seems to have commonality with the "Interceptors are Dead (sp?)" thread. I wonder if what we are seeing is planned obsolescence from a company that makes money selling a product...Wave 1 came out and attracted customers, Wave 2 needed to be exciting and an improvement over Wave 1. Wave 3 comes out and is more exciting than Wave 2. As the Aces pack is realeased and plans for Wave 4 are spoiling the excitement surrounding it is making Wave 3 look tarnished.

Maybe that is the plan to keep people buying and keep the product fresh. Think of playing only Wave 1 and 2 ships and cards and such and see how Vader stacks up...

The amount of balance FFG has in this game, when compared with a lot of other miniatures games, is very impressive. Wave 1 ships are still relevant and will continue to be. The one major exception to that right now is the TIE Advanced. Vader isn't really ever considered part of that problem as his pilot ability is so strong that it makes up for being in the worst ship in the game, allowing him to play a bit more offensively than a normal version of the ship, as well as have other utility that can fit into a lot of lists (he is THE squad leader).

I think this is why the Advanced gets the attention it does. It is the only ship that does not, nor has it ever, had a real place in this game. There isn't a single ship in this game that is less attractive now then it was when it first came out. FFG isn't replacing ships, they are creating new rolls and coming up with new combinations for old ones. I would run nothing but X-wings and Y-wings still to this day with full confidence in my ability to beat any other list.

Let's put the math-wing aside for a few moments. I get the math, I really do. I'm a logic and philosophy professor. As I asked earlier, "What role does the Advanced play?" After answering that, "Is there another Imperial ship that can play that same role better/cheaper?" THIS bit of rhetoric logic strikes at the heart of the problem of the Advanced. EVERY OTHER SHIP in the game is capable of fielding a role better/cheaper than other ships in a faction, save the Advanced. This is not a problem that can be fixed with a point discount.

Anyone tried running this build to see if it worked?

Darth Vader - Expose - Engine Upgrade

Mauler Mithel - Swarm Tactics

Howlrunner - Swarm Tactics

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Let's put the math-wing aside for a few moments. I get the math, I really do. I'm a logic and philosophy professor. As I asked earlier, "What role does the Advanced play?" After answering that, "Is there another Imperial ship that can play that same role better/cheaper?" THIS bit of rhetoric logic strikes at the heart of the problem of the Advanced. EVERY OTHER SHIP in the game is capable of fielding a role better/cheaper than other ships in a faction, save the Advanced. This is not a problem that can be fixed with a point discount.

I agree with everything you said except the last piece. Anything in a game like this can be "fixed" with a point discount, and certainly that is the case with the Advanced. Whether that is the best method to do it all the time is another question, and of course, if you lower the points of the Advanced too far, you infringe on the value of other ships. I'd argue that currently the Advanced could fill the role of a fighter that is both durable and maneuverable if it were pointed more appropriately. There's a role to be filled somewhere between the bomber and interceptor and that is supposed to be the advanced, but it's just too many points.

Let's put the math-wing aside for a few moments. I get the math, I really do. I'm a logic and philosophy professor. As I asked earlier, "What role does the Advanced play?" After answering that, "Is there another Imperial ship that can play that same role better/cheaper?" THIS bit of rhetoric logic strikes at the heart of the problem of the Advanced. EVERY OTHER SHIP in the game is capable of fielding a role better/cheaper than other ships in a faction, save the Advanced. This is not a problem that can be fixed with a point discount.

I agree with everything you said except the last piece. Anything in a game like this can be "fixed" with a point discount, and certainly that is the case with the Advanced. Whether that is the best method to do it all the time is another question, and of course, if you lower the points of the Advanced too far, you infringe on the value of other ships. I'd argue that currently the Advanced could fill the role of a fighter that is both durable and maneuverable if it were pointed more appropriately. There's a role to be filled somewhere between the bomber and interceptor and that is supposed to be the advanced, but it's just too many points.

With only a 2 attack, this is not an X-wing. It's more like an A-wing when it comes to offensive prowess. Durable? Yes. But two ties only cost a point more than 1 Advanced, and I'd say you're better off with the two Ties. Currently, I'd argue the Bounty Hunter is the best durable fighter for the Empire. Yes, it weighs in at 33 points, so it's not cheaper, but it does have 2 attack arcs, 3 attack die, 4 shield, and 6 hull and is very maneuverable. For 12 more points, you get a higher PS, twice the shields and hull, two firing arcs, and a great dial. I'd say THIS is clearly the Empire's durable fighter.

Let's put the math-wing aside for a few moments. I get the math, I really do. I'm a logic and philosophy professor. As I asked earlier, "What role does the Advanced play?" After answering that, "Is there another Imperial ship that can play that same role better/cheaper?" THIS bit of rhetoric logic strikes at the heart of the problem of the Advanced. EVERY OTHER SHIP in the game is capable of fielding a role better/cheaper than other ships in a faction, save the Advanced. This is not a problem that can be fixed with a point discount.

I agree with everything you said except the last piece. Anything in a game like this can be "fixed" with a point discount, and certainly that is the case with the Advanced. Whether that is the best method to do it all the time is another question, and of course, if you lower the points of the Advanced too far, you infringe on the value of other ships. I'd argue that currently the Advanced could fill the role of a fighter that is both durable and maneuverable if it were pointed more appropriately. There's a role to be filled somewhere between the bomber and interceptor and that is supposed to be the advanced, but it's just too many points.

With only a 2 attack, this is not an X-wing. It's more like an A-wing when it comes to offensive prowess. Durable? Yes. But two ties only cost a point more than 1 Advanced, and I'd say you're better off with the two Ties. Currently, I'd argue the Bounty Hunter is the best durable fighter for the Empire. Yes, it weighs in at 33 points, so it's not cheaper, but it does have 2 attack arcs, 3 attack die, 4 shield, and 6 hull and is very maneuverable. For 12 more points, you get a higher PS, twice the shields and hull, two firing arcs, and a great dial. I'd say THIS is clearly the Empire's durable fighter.

I agree, but I was responding to your sentence about it not being able to be fixed with a "point discount." You simply gave me why it's bad at it's current cost, which I agree with.

Let's put the math-wing aside for a few moments. I get the math, I really do. I'm a logic and philosophy professor. As I asked earlier, "What role does the Advanced play?" After answering that, "Is there another Imperial ship that can play that same role better/cheaper?" THIS bit of rhetoric logic strikes at the heart of the problem of the Advanced. EVERY OTHER SHIP in the game is capable of fielding a role better/cheaper than other ships in a faction, save the Advanced.

It doesn't play a role, and it's never (convincingly) played a role. As someone else pointed out in one of these threads, for a little while it was the only ship the Empire had that could use missiles--but that's not a solution, because missiles haven't tended toward the cost-effective in any case.

This is not a problem that can be fixed with a point discount.

Right, because you can't un-design the TIE Bomber or TIE Fighter, which respectively perform the roles of "ordnance delivery system" and "cheap but underpowered fighter". Making the TIE Advanced cheaper just infringes upon those existing roles.

Let's put the math-wing aside for a few moments. I get the math, I really do. I'm a logic and philosophy professor. As I asked earlier, "What role does the Advanced play?" After answering that, "Is there another Imperial ship that can play that same role better/cheaper?" THIS bit of rhetoric logic strikes at the heart of the problem of the Advanced. EVERY OTHER SHIP in the game is capable of fielding a role better/cheaper than other ships in a faction, save the Advanced. This is not a problem that can be fixed with a point discount.

I agree with everything you said except the last piece. Anything in a game like this can be "fixed" with a point discount, and certainly that is the case with the Advanced. Whether that is the best method to do it all the time is another question, and of course, if you lower the points of the Advanced too far, you infringe on the value of other ships. I'd argue that currently the Advanced could fill the role of a fighter that is both durable and maneuverable if it were pointed more appropriately. There's a role to be filled somewhere between the bomber and interceptor and that is supposed to be the advanced, but it's just too many points.

With only a 2 attack, this is not an X-wing. It's more like an A-wing when it comes to offensive prowess. Durable? Yes. But two ties only cost a point more than 1 Advanced, and I'd say you're better off with the two Ties. Currently, I'd argue the Bounty Hunter is the best durable fighter for the Empire. Yes, it weighs in at 33 points, so it's not cheaper, but it does have 2 attack arcs, 3 attack die, 4 shield, and 6 hull and is very maneuverable. For 12 more points, you get a higher PS, twice the shields and hull, two firing arcs, and a great dial. I'd say THIS is clearly the Empire's durable fighter.

I agree, but I was responding to your sentence about it not being able to be fixed with a "point discount." You simply gave me why it's bad at it's current cost, which I agree with.

@Stone, I think you missed the point of my post in first response to you. As I implied in my first post, I think you can fix the Advanced with a point cost, but you start to "infringe on the value of other ships" ( my exact words).

How about a 17 point Advanced? Or 16? Whether or not that is a good thing or there is a happy medium is another question. Like, would a larger point missile refit than you see on the A-Wing cause people to see a mix of more Ties and Tie Advanced without making the TIE obsolete? If there's any ship that could be infringed upon a bit, it might be the TIE, but I don't know and I'd have to play around with the numbers more than I have.

I'd say ... dont make the Advanced cheaper - but modifications or titles that give a discount for upgrades + new upgrade possibilities, like:

Modifications

Advanced Tech Refit : "Add a System Upgrade slot. System Upgrades cost 2 points less." 0 Points

Experimental Droid interface (unique):"Add a Droid slot. Droids cost 1 points less." 1 Point

Secondary Weapons

Enhanced Laser Banks : "If you dont attack with your primary weapons this round, add 1 to firepower, to a maximum of 3. after your attack with your primary weapons, revert your attack power to normal" (yeah needs better wording, but you got the point) - takes missile slot - 2 points.

Titles

Secret Facility Pilot : "Add an EPT slot. Only PS4 to PS8. Elite Training cost 1 point less" - 0 Points.

(This excludes Vader - But Maarek would get 2 EPT, Stroms 1 EPT)

Yes a FCS for free would fix the Advanced, but I like the idea of having more upgrade options.

The Rebel Aces preview proofes that FFG is concerned and there are many possibilities to boost the Advanced to competivity.

Currently, I like to fly the Advanced as a Bomber escort. Once the missiles are out, the Advanced is a better craft than the Bomber with his 3 agility, evade action and 3hull/2shield instead of 6 hull (I personally prefer 1 less hit point but 2 shield to soak the eventual early critical). Plus, I found that equiping two ordinances on a bomber tend to make them a big target, so it's not bad to use those points elsewhere.

Captain Jonus with Squad Leader

Gamma Squadron with Proton Torpedoes

Tie Advanced with Cluster Missiles

Tie Advanced with Cluster Missiles

But I agree that it's suboptimal and that the Tie Advanced should have the tools necessary to see more playtime. It is a good craft, it's just missing a little something to make it worthwhile. In the squad above, I could take 2 RGI with PtL and equip both bomber with a seismic charge, or 4 Obsidian Tie Fighter... or anything else for 52 points and I'm sure I would not miss those 2 advanced.

Some great points by Red Castle and TheRealStarKiller. I have actually found that just giving the Advanced (both the Storm and the Tempest) and EPT puts them back on par with the X-wings. They don't have an Astromech slot, so giving them an EPT equalizes things. I also like the idea of trading out the missile slot for a System Upgrade. I don't believe a discount would be needed here either. Imagine a Tempest with FCS (or Adv. Sensors) and PtL (or Opportunist). For 26 points you'd get one heck of a durable fighter/blocker. I believe this build would be on par with Rookie+Astromech. While the X-wing is still the more natural fighter, the Advanced is now a fantastic support/follow up to the other ships in the fleet.

It's too bad the Defender will have a cannon slot as the Advanced could've been slipped nicely into that role.

It's too bad the Defender will have a cannon slot as the Advanced could've been slipped nicely into that role.

All of the ships that have cannons so far have 3 attack dice. Going from 2 attack dice to 4 (HLC) is a really big deal.

It's too bad the Defender will have a cannon slot as the Advanced could've been slipped nicely into that role.

All of the ships that have cannons so far have 3 attack dice. Going from 2 attack dice to 4 (HLC) is a really big deal.

The Starwing has 2 attack and will have a cannon slot

It's too bad the Defender will have a cannon slot as the Advanced could've been slipped nicely into that role.

All of the ships that have cannons so far have 3 attack dice. Going from 2 attack dice to 4 (HLC) is a really big deal.

The Starwing has 2 attack and will have a cannon slot

The Assault Gunboat? Yes, I am hoping they release it in wave 5, but a cannon slot on 2 attack dice will be very interesting to balance... of course more variety is always a good thing for the game.

It's too bad the Defender will have a cannon slot as the Advanced could've been slipped nicely into that role.

All of the ships that have cannons so far have 3 attack dice. Going from 2 attack dice to 4 (HLC) is a really big deal.

The Starwing has 2 attack and will have a cannon slot

The Assault Gunboat? Yes, I am hoping they release it in wave 5, but a cannon slot on 2 attack dice will be very interesting to balance... of course more variety is always a good thing for the game.

We had this discussion already

Do you think a cannon would be enough to promote use of the Advanced? The more I think about it, the place that the Advanced is lacking is the versatility of what an astromech or Systems Upgrade can do for a ship. Either of these (or both) would be a great step in the right direction. The more I think about the idea of an Advanced with Adv. Sensors the more I like it. It would turn the Advanced into something more akin to the B-wing.

From my point of view, I don't think adding a cannon to the Advanced would be a solution. It doesn't fit with the source material and could remove a big utility of the Defender. The defender is 3/3/3/3 can barrel roll, TL and focus and the PS1 cost 30. The Advanced is 2/3/3/2 can barrel roll, TL, focus and Evade and the PS1 cost 21. Why would you equip a defender with a cannon when you can nearly have the same ship for 9 points less? I also don't think that they need a point reduction. Giving them that would indirectly hurt the Bomber, and he don't need that.

System upgrades and EPT is more akin to the solution. EPT, or dual EPT for Marek, would really help their bomber side by being able to use PtL to TL and focus, or marksmanship on Marek case, in the same round or take a VI to be able shoot faster and have a better idea of the field before using TL. Meanwhile, system upgrade could let them take advanced sensors to give them the maneuvrability of being able to take their action before moving. And something to note, Vader would not really benefit from Advanced sensor because you take one action before moving but skip your perform action, so no two actions for him the turn he use advanced sensor. Since he's the one that don't really need a boost, that's a good thing.

The Advance had no ion cannons, no heavy lasers and no autoblaster - so no cannon upgrade slot.

Though background says it had boosted laser cannons. Would 2 boosted laser cannons make up 4 'unboosted'?

So I would recomment the Enhanced Laser Banks . like in the post above.

Do you think a cannon would be enough to promote use of the Advanced? The more I think about it, the place that the Advanced is lacking is the versatility of what an astromech or Systems Upgrade can do for a ship. Either of these (or both) would be a great step in the right direction. The more I think about the idea of an Advanced with Adv. Sensors the more I like it. It would turn the Advanced into something more akin to the B-wing.

Title card advanced x2 zero cost adds a system slot. Maybe add an advanced only modification or system card that makes missiles better on the advanced such as adding 1 to missile ranges but limits target locks to missiles. Call it advanced targeter prototype.

This still leaves room for a 3/3/2/2 stripped down avenger model w no or few upgrades and a movement dial more like the advanced then interceptor.

The problem with simply adding a system slot, is that:

1. If you DON'T put anything in it, it is still just as overcosted.
2. If you DO put something in it, it won't suddenly make the ship cost efficient.

The problem with simply adding a system slot, is that:

• If you DON'T put anything in it, it is still just as overcosted.
• If you DO put something in it, it won't suddenly make the ship cost efficient.

Nobody here really knows or even has a reasonable guess at what FFG thinks about it, unfortunately. But there's absolutely no way that a missile slot is worth 2 points. That would make a PS2 Z-95 10 points. 10 Z-95s would probably take down anything in the game.