I'm sure everyone has read the forums about how the Advanced is overpriced, but I when I thought about the new Rebel Aces, I couldn't but help think that the Advanced is next.

So I set out to see how I could make the X-Wing and the A-Wing match up in stats to the Advanced to see how their prices match up. Here's the changes you'd have to make (assuming no restrictions on any of the upgrades).

This is a thought experiment, so bare with me.

Prototype A-Wing:

1. Hull Upgrade (+3)
2. Expert Handling (+2)
   1. Note that while this causes a stress which doesn't happen to the Advanced, it also drops a target lock. I'm assuming the cost of the pro and the discount for the con even out.
3. Veteran Instincts (+1)
   1. You get 2 PS points out of the 1 point, so there's no need to add 1/2 a point.
4. Total Cost: 23 points

Tempest Squadron Pilot TIE Advanced:

1. R-2 Astromech (+1, +1)
   1. I know, TIEs get no astromech, remember, no restrictions. This improves the dial of the Advanced to be more on the level of the A-Wing. While you don't get the 1 hard turn, nor the 3 or 5 K-turns, this is a close match. I'd say for another point you could probably make the dials match.
2. Engine Upgrade (+4)
   1. Gives the Advanced the boost action so now both ships can take basically all actions.
3. Total Cost: 27 points

Let's try to do the same with the X-Wing versus the TIE Advanced.

Rookie Pilot X-Wing:

1. Expert Handling (+2)
   1. Adds the barrel roll. Note the point wash-out listed above.
2. Millennium Falcon (+1)
   1. Again, we're ignoring restrictions here, so hold on. Apparently the evade action is worth only 1 point.
3. Total Cost: 24 points

Tempest Squadron Pilot TIE Advanced:

1. Expose (+4, +1)
   1. We'll assume this doesn't require an action and costs an extra 1 points. This could be argued that it's equivalent to a special ability similar to Howlrunner's ability but only applies to it self (less than 2 but greater than 0).
2. Total Cost: 26 points

So the A-Wing is still coming out on top by a wide margin. If Chardaan Refit will make the A-Wing competitive, then the Advanced has to be next for such a treatment. It's interesting though that the A-Wing come out to about the same, but not the Advanced when compared against the two rebel ships. That leads me to believe that either the formula is more complex or there is no formula.

I'd love to see what other people think. More importantly, I'd love to see the Advanced used more often. I like that people add some of the other ships as spice to their squads, but I rarely see the Advanced and that makes me sad.

The TIE Advanced isn't overcosted or inefficient.

It is a defensively oriented fighter.

It's a turtle, and the existing tournament format may as well be renamed "**** turtles!"

It is at least as cost efficient as an X-wing and probably moreso. The strategies & tactics at which it is most efficient are not practical on a 75 minute timer, especially where a Modified win is worth less.

That said, I think we would all enjoy having more options with it.

I love the Advanced. It's simply the most survivable smallship in the game (until Wave 4 hits).

However:

• It is the most expensive ship in the game with only 2 attack dice, meaning it is the only one that cannot be Swarmed
• It has the 3rd fewest maneuvers in the game (behind the Lambda and HWK only)
• Even if you manage to plan your actions so you get a positive expected value for damage dealt vs damage taken, it's going to be an incredibly long match. Tournaments are timed.
• Maarek Stele's ability isn't worth playing on a 2 attack ship.

So, yeah, it could use a buff. A title that gives it another upgrade, new pilots, a cheapening upgrade, or all 3, like the A-Wing just got, would be VERY welcome, particularly as it's losing it's survivability belt in Wave 4.

I look forward to running Maarek Stele with Opportunist and Cluster Missiles, with Captain Yorr off to one side soaking up the stress. Alpha as ****!

Hello all, been lurking for some time but I'm now curios about a list this thread inspired, see if it has any merrit. I'm afraid my area (Montana, U.S.) is in an erie black hole for any gaming other thatn 40k or Magic so I mostly just collect. Anyway, here is the list

Steele W/ Oppertunist

Howlrunner W/ Wingman

BSTie W/ Draw their fire

Acadamy Tie

Scimitar Tie/B with 2xFlechett torps and failsafe

99points. Alternative would be dropping failsafe for a bomb.

The TIE Advanced isn't overcosted or inefficient.

It is a defensively oriented fighter.

It's a turtle, and the existing tournament format may as well be renamed "**** turtles!"

It is at least as cost efficient as an X-wing and probably moreso. The strategies & tactics at which it is most efficient are not practical on a 75 minute timer, especially where a Modified win is worth less.

That's not actually the case, though.

I mean, you are right, it's VERY close to the X-Wing. EXTREMELY close, in fact - the dials are virtually identical, even (move the center column of the X-Wing "forward one", and *boom*, identical dials).

I'd posted a more complete analysis over on BGG - worth a read, as it goes into more detail . However, the take-away is that, even accounting for the fact that the TIE Advanced is built on a defensive strategy, rather than offensive, it still fails to justify its cost. Primarily for two reasons:

- Attack dice are better than defense dice. This isn't a hypothetical "the best defense is a good offense" argument, but that attack dice have only 2 blanks, while defense dice have 3. An equal number of attack+defense dice between two craft, with the balance one way on one ship vs the other...is a substantial advantage to the ship that balances in favor of attack dice.

- The X-Wing provides a ROBUST set of upgrade options via the astromech slot. Especially now that the E-Wing expansion is dropping even more droids on us (but even before then!). Not to mention the X-Wing now has three SKUs worth of pilots/upgrades/etc (core set, X-Wing expansion, Rebel Transport expansion) vs the TIE Advanced only having one.

So it's definitely true that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced *should* be very comparable...the actual details of the implementation and current retail reality of the game system invalidate that.

(Now, all that said, as I've noted a few times - I don't think the problem is as massive as it might appear. The comparison to the X-Wing is particularly illuminating, as you can see how close its capabilities are. I think an Imperial version of Chardaan would be the best fit - eat up the missile slot, reduce cost by only 1, add system upgrade slot. I think that'd do what needs to be done for it!)

Hello all, been lurking for some time but I'm now curios about a list this thread inspired, see if it has any merrit. I'm afraid my area (Montana, U.S.) is in an erie black hole for any gaming other thatn 40k or Magic so I mostly just collect. Anyway, here is the list

Steele W/ Oppertunist

Howlrunner W/ Wingman

BSTie W/ Draw their fire

Acadamy Tie

Scimitar Tie/B with 2xFlechett torps and failsafe

99points. Alternative would be dropping failsafe for a bomb.

I love the mixed tie squad idea. Not sure about Oppertunist on Steele though, he fires second and there is a good chance Howl wont be stripping focuses. Marksmanship is the classic with him, and synergises well with his card ability. Then you could have the bomb!

Cant help thinking a really easy way to get people playing the Advanced again would if the Chardaan Refit card said Awings and Tie Advances only. Really would be a give away on which ships are over priced, but it would also work.

5 Tempests would be ace, if not suited to tournament format. Vs 5 Awings, longest game ever!!!

Cant help thinking a really easy way to get people playing the Advanced again would if the Chardaan Refit card said Awings and Tie Advances only. Really would be a give away on which ships are over priced,

I get this feeling with the B-wing card that adds a crew slot to the B-wing, why not make it Y-Wing and B-Wing at the same time. But I'll concede it hasn't been completely spoiled yet (so it's not off the cards). It does look like Rebel Aces has bonus support for the HWK with Katarn and Ors crew cards though, so that is cool.

I'll echo the system upgrade option for the advanced. It just makes too much sense. But the other issue is definitely lack of pilots. Some pilots with attack enhancing effects would go a long way to making it more useable. Backstabber and Mauler Mithel "experienced" would work (though I guess they died).

The Advanced is definitely (and Y) is definitely due some power creep.

The TIE Advanced isn't overcosted or inefficient.

It is a defensively oriented fighter.

It's a turtle, and the existing tournament format may as well be renamed "**** turtles!"

It is at least as cost efficient as an X-wing and probably moreso. The strategies & tactics at which it is most efficient are not practical on a 75 minute timer, especially where a Modified win is worth less.

That's not actually the case, though.

I mean, you are right, it's VERY close to the X-Wing. EXTREMELY close, in fact - the dials are virtually identical, even (move the center column of the X-Wing "forward one", and *boom*, identical dials).

I'd posted a more complete analysis over on BGG - worth a read, as it goes into more detail . However, the take-away is that, even accounting for the fact that the TIE Advanced is built on a defensive strategy, rather than offensive, it still fails to justify its cost. Primarily for two reasons:

- Attack dice are better than defense dice. This isn't a hypothetical "the best defense is a good offense" argument, but that attack dice have only 2 blanks, while defense dice have 3. An equal number of attack+defense dice between two craft, with the balance one way on one ship vs the other...is a substantial advantage to the ship that balances in favor of attack dice.

- The X-Wing provides a ROBUST set of upgrade options via the astromech slot. Especially now that the E-Wing expansion is dropping even more droids on us (but even before then!). Not to mention the X-Wing now has three SKUs worth of pilots/upgrades/etc (core set, X-Wing expansion, Rebel Transport expansion) vs the TIE Advanced only having one.

So it's definitely true that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced *should* be very comparable...the actual details of the implementation and current retail reality of the game system invalidate that.

(Now, all that said, as I've noted a few times - I don't think the problem is as massive as it might appear. The comparison to the X-Wing is particularly illuminating, as you can see how close its capabilities are. I think an Imperial version of Chardaan would be the best fit - eat up the missile slot, reduce cost by only 1, add system upgrade slot. I think that'd do what needs to be done for it!)

I notice that your "analysis" ( ) manages to completely forget the fact that the Advanced comes with Evade and more notably Barrel Roll , which is the most powerful and flexible action in the game. An action which will tend to give the TIE Advanced more and better shots than the X-wing will receive.

Too, you seem to forget that the Imperial player will tend to have the initiative. Another non-trivial advantage which costs nothing and will tend to give the TIE Advanced more and better shots...

To get an idea of just how potent and flexible these factors really are, try this: Set an X-wing down behind a TIE Advanced somewhere near the middle of range 2 (basically the strongest possible position to be in, in a dogfight). Play out say, five turns, keeping track of how many shots the X-wing would get. The answer is generally one or two, contingent upon good guesses from the X-wing pilot.

Now, try the opposite. A TIE Advanced at around range 2 of an X-wing's backside. Spoiler: In five turns of maneuvers, the TIE Advanced will get three or four shots along many decision trees. Often these shots are guaranteed by choosing a non-committal maneuver and then barrel rolling as necessary. If you feel like expanding the exercise, try similar setups from different ranges, different facings. Jousting situations, shallow and deep angles, etc. It's useful knowledge - very enlightening.

Now, clearly this isn't the end of the story - but it does sort've highlight some problems with your "analysis". Try not to leave out little things like the game , hey?

I am too new to analyse ships but it seems fact that no-one in their right minds picks a Tie Advanced for a competitive game.

And that is a shame IMO. And I sure hope that FFG "fixes" this.

The TIE Advanced isn't overcosted or inefficient.

It is a defensively oriented fighter.

It's a turtle, and the existing tournament format may as well be renamed "**** turtles!"

It is at least as cost efficient as an X-wing and probably moreso. The strategies & tactics at which it is most efficient are not practical on a 75 minute timer, especially where a Modified win is worth less.

That's not actually the case, though.

I mean, you are right, it's VERY close to the X-Wing. EXTREMELY close, in fact - the dials are virtually identical, even (move the center column of the X-Wing "forward one", and *boom*, identical dials).

I'd posted a more complete analysis over on BGG - worth a read, as it goes into more detail . However, the take-away is that, even accounting for the fact that the TIE Advanced is built on a defensive strategy, rather than offensive, it still fails to justify its cost. Primarily for two reasons:

- Attack dice are better than defense dice. This isn't a hypothetical "the best defense is a good offense" argument, but that attack dice have only 2 blanks, while defense dice have 3. An equal number of attack+defense dice between two craft, with the balance one way on one ship vs the other...is a substantial advantage to the ship that balances in favor of attack dice.

- The X-Wing provides a ROBUST set of upgrade options via the astromech slot. Especially now that the E-Wing expansion is dropping even more droids on us (but even before then!). Not to mention the X-Wing now has three SKUs worth of pilots/upgrades/etc (core set, X-Wing expansion, Rebel Transport expansion) vs the TIE Advanced only having one.

So it's definitely true that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced *should* be very comparable...the actual details of the implementation and current retail reality of the game system invalidate that.

(Now, all that said, as I've noted a few times - I don't think the problem is as massive as it might appear. The comparison to the X-Wing is particularly illuminating, as you can see how close its capabilities are. I think an Imperial version of Chardaan would be the best fit - eat up the missile slot, reduce cost by only 1, add system upgrade slot. I think that'd do what needs to be done for it!)

Good, someone actually read what I wrote. I read your analysis, which was a good read, but I would go further and probably say that a 2 point reduction would probably be better because of the disparity with the A-Wing, which will only get worse with the Rebel Aces.

The TIE Advanced isn't overcosted or inefficient.

It is a defensively oriented fighter.

It's a turtle, and the existing tournament format may as well be renamed "**** turtles!"

It is at least as cost efficient as an X-wing and probably moreso. The strategies & tactics at which it is most efficient are not practical on a 75 minute timer, especially where a Modified win is worth less.

That's not actually the case, though.

I mean, you are right, it's VERY close to the X-Wing. EXTREMELY close, in fact - the dials are virtually identical, even (move the center column of the X-Wing "forward one", and *boom*, identical dials).

I'd posted a more complete analysis over on BGG - worth a read, as it goes into more detail . However, the take-away is that, even accounting for the fact that the TIE Advanced is built on a defensive strategy, rather than offensive, it still fails to justify its cost. Primarily for two reasons:

- Attack dice are better than defense dice. This isn't a hypothetical "the best defense is a good offense" argument, but that attack dice have only 2 blanks, while defense dice have 3. An equal number of attack+defense dice between two craft, with the balance one way on one ship vs the other...is a substantial advantage to the ship that balances in favor of attack dice.

- The X-Wing provides a ROBUST set of upgrade options via the astromech slot. Especially now that the E-Wing expansion is dropping even more droids on us (but even before then!). Not to mention the X-Wing now has three SKUs worth of pilots/upgrades/etc (core set, X-Wing expansion, Rebel Transport expansion) vs the TIE Advanced only having one.

So it's definitely true that the X-Wing and TIE Advanced *should* be very comparable...the actual details of the implementation and current retail reality of the game system invalidate that.

(Now, all that said, as I've noted a few times - I don't think the problem is as massive as it might appear. The comparison to the X-Wing is particularly illuminating, as you can see how close its capabilities are. I think an Imperial version of Chardaan would be the best fit - eat up the missile slot, reduce cost by only 1, add system upgrade slot. I think that'd do what needs to be done for it!)

I notice that your "analysis" ( ) manages to completely forget the fact that the Advanced comes with Evade and more notably Barrel Roll , which is the most powerful and flexible action in the game. An action which will tend to give the TIE Advanced more and better shots than the X-wing will receive.

Too, you seem to forget that the Imperial player will tend to have the initiative. Another non-trivial advantage which costs nothing and will tend to give the TIE Advanced more and better shots...

To get an idea of just how potent and flexible these factors really are, try this: Set an X-wing down behind a TIE Advanced somewhere near the middle of range 2 (basically the strongest possible position to be in, in a dogfight). Play out say, five turns, keeping track of how many shots the X-wing would get. The answer is generally one or two, contingent upon good guesses from the X-wing pilot.

Now, try the opposite. A TIE Advanced at around range 2 of an X-wing's backside. Spoiler: In five turns of maneuvers, the TIE Advanced will get three or four shots along many decision trees. Often these shots are guaranteed by choosing a non-committal maneuver and then barrel rolling as necessary. If you feel like expanding the exercise, try similar setups from different ranges, different facings. Jousting situations, shallow and deep angles, etc. It's useful knowledge - very enlightening.

Now, clearly this isn't the end of the story - but it does sort've highlight some problems with your "analysis". Try not to leave out little things like the game , hey?

Notice how I gave both the X-Wing and A-Wing the Expert Handling upgrade. I did not ignore that. If you go back and re-read what I wrote, I was trying to give both ships equal PS, actions (which include barrel roll), stats, and dials with just the upgrades we have released to date.

The TIE Advanced isn't overcosted or inefficient.

It is a defensively oriented fighter.

It's a turtle, and the existing tournament format may as well be renamed "**** turtles!"

It is at least as cost efficient as an X-wing and probably moreso. The strategies & tactics at which it is most efficient are not practical on a 75 minute timer, especially where a Modified win is worth less.

Amen to that! If you are to become great and fast with the advanced or interceptor it will take practice. The best method is to fly only that ship. I have been flying high end interceptors since there release and it makes a difference.

Oh, and they can take care of 2 birds with 1 stone:

Battle of Yavin pack: includes Y-Wing and the TIE Advanced with new pilots and upgrades.

They could include Tiree, Jon Vander, and Davish Krail for the Y-Wing. They could include Avenger Squadron, EC Nerwal, and Avenger One for the Advanced (the TIE Avenger was the renamed Advanced x2, the Interceptor is the Advanced x3 and the Defender is the x7).

It's overcosted by 3+ points relative to the TIE Fighter. See my Lanchester's thread. It's the best formula yet that anyone has made to predict balanced ship costs. Sorry xanderf. It has limitations, but at a minimum you can look at the TIE Advanced's jousting efficiency and realize that it's essentially useless.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?view=findpost&p=1000109

I think these threads prove the Advanced just needs more options.

I started into this game in Dec of last year and brought one of every ship to see what they are like. I fell in love with playing the imps and mainly the Intercepter and shuttles. I looked at the Advance and saw the point cost compared to everything else and skipped it all together. I think the the problem is the cost, I know that they are trying to be about the same as an x-wing but I would rather fly a shuttle for 21 points. Idk it's nice to have options but every other imperial ship seems to be better to play with then the advance.

I fly 1 Turr, 3 Ob ties, and 1 Shuttle as my standard go to and just could not see replacing the shuttle, or Turr with an advance any time soon.

First off, I'm a little miffed at the Chaardan Refit, since I didn't (and still don't) think A wings were overpriced. I relate it to a white mage in a RPG... by his/her self, she can't kill anything. And that fighter over there just tears through things. When looking at that one on one situation, the fighter is a no brainer. But when you look at the bigger picture, and against bosses and whatnot, the fighter is necessary, heck most of your group should be fighters (or some sort)... but you can't get jack done without that white mage keeping you alive. The A wing is that White mage. It doesn't stand up well on its own, but sure does pack a punch throughout the game and lives longer than everyone else and brings you that victory in the end game. Heck it can even block really well to prevent damage.

But this really isn't about the A wing, it's about the Advanced. I think the meta has kinda shifted away from the Advanced. In W1 when it was introduced, it had concussion and cluster missiles. The only other secondary weapons were ICT and PT, both on the rebel side. Cluster missiles are a direct counter to Y wings (and they still are), often doing ~3 damage (2.34 average damage if you don't have a focus for either attack). Two of those on tempest can easily take out a Y wing, and costs you 50 points for those ships. Meanwhile, the concussion missiles were great against X wings, rolling 2.68 hits without a focus, or 3.68 with the focus, dealing about 2 average damage to an X wing if you don't have a focus, 3 if you do. Again, an easy way to take out an X wing.

The problem was that ordnance never caught on. On the rebel side, it just wasn't worth it to spend 4 points to roll 1 extra die to damage a 12 point fighter. On the imperial side, it wasn't worth it to run 1 x1 w/ a missile instead of two AP. The /x1 is still quite a bit better at dog fighting (and staying alive) than the /sa, so I'm unconvinced that it's overcosted. For 5 points, you trade 3 hull for 2 shields (-1 if you're using SU + HU as the point basis), gaining an attack die (figure at least 4 points since a situational die is worth 3) and a better dial. I fail to see how you could justify reducing the cost of the /x1 without obsoleting the /sa and running it exclusively with 2+ ordnance.

Also, saying evade action is only worth 1 point on a 2 or 3 agility ship because the unique MF title that grants a 1 agility ship the evade action is silly. It's not a linear cost.

Oh, and they can take care of 2 birds with 1 stone:

Battle of Yavin pack: includes Y-Wing and the TIE Advanced with new pilots and upgrades.

They could include Tiree, Jon Vander, and Davish Krail for the Y-Wing. They could include Avenger Squadron, EC Nerwal, and Avenger One for the Advanced (the TIE Avenger was the renamed Advanced x2, the Interceptor is the Advanced x3 and the Defender is the x7).

Man, I was JUST thinking "A Yavin pack with Y-Wing and TIE Advanced...."

Avenger Redesign
TIE Advanced only. Title.
Your upgrade bar gains the upgrade icon.
This card has a negative squad point cost.
(-3 points)

This would fix the TIE Advanced, I think. And I'm still hoping for a resculpt to be released that looks like the TIE Avenger.

First off, I'm a little miffed at the Chaardan Refit, since I didn't (and still don't) think A wings were overpriced. I relate it to a white mage in a RPG... by his/her self, she can't kill anything. And that fighter over there just tears through things. When looking at that one on one situation, the fighter is a no brainer. But when you look at the bigger picture, and against bosses and whatnot, the fighter is necessary, heck most of your group should be fighters (or some sort)... but you can't get jack done without that white mage keeping you alive. The A wing is that White mage. It doesn't stand up well on its own, but sure does pack a punch throughout the game and lives longer than everyone else and brings you that victory in the end game. Heck it can even block really well to prevent damage.

But white mages often aren't worth it--or, at least, healing isn't. And durability alone won't win an RPG encounter, either (which is one of the many reasons that fighters are a terrible class in D&D editions 3 and 3.5). Removing status effects is important, but A-wings can't do that (except with the upcoming Wingman); buffing is also important, but the only way A-wings can do that is with Squad Leader.

If you consider the total damage distributed across a ship's lifetime, A-wings (like TIE Advanced) just weren’t efficient enough for their cost. Now they should be.

But this really isn't about the A wing, it's about the Advanced. I think the meta has kinda shifted away from the Advanced. In W1 when it was introduced, it had concussion and cluster missiles. The only other secondary weapons were ICT and PT, both on the rebel side. Cluster missiles are a direct counter to Y wings (and they still are), often doing ~3 damage (2.34 average damage if you don't have a focus for either attack)…

I can’t resist a swipe at Clusters, here: naked Concussion Missiles have an almost identical average of 2.31 damage against the same Y-wing, and they’re worth a lot more against a ship with higher Agility. Clusters are just almost never a good choice.

The problem was that ordnance never caught on. On the rebel side, it just wasn't worth it to spend 4 points to roll 1 extra die to damage a 12 point fighter. On the imperial side, it wasn't worth it to run 1 x1 w/ a missile instead of two AP. The /x1 is still quite a bit better at dog fighting (and staying alive) than the /sa, so I'm unconvinced that it's overcosted.

You just said that it’s not worth it to run a Tempest with a missile over two Academy Pilots, and in the next sentence, that that means the Tempest can’t be overcosted. I’d say that exact comparison is one of the best pieces of evidence that the Tempest is overcosted: two TIE Fighters have a similar cost, better durability, exactly twice the attacking power, and better action economy. The TIE Fighter offers very similar defensive efficiency and drastically better offensive efficiency, and the missile just doesn’t make up enough.

For 5 points, you trade 3 hull for 2 shields (-1 if you're using SU + HU as the point basis), gaining an attack die (figure at least 4 points since a situational die is worth 3) and a better dial. I fail to see how you could justify reducing the cost of the /x1 without obsoleting the /sa and running it exclusively with 2+ ordnance.

Presumably you said “attack die” when you meant “defense die”. Overall, though, I agree with you, and I think that's the reason we haven’t seen something like the Chaardan Refit for the Advanced already. (It would have had to be renamed, but FFG could just as easily allowed the Chaardan Refit itself to apply to both the Advanced and A-wing.)

But the Advanced really is a more complex problem, because the design space for Imperial fighters is smaller in dimension. Increase its Attack? Now you’re edging close to the Interceptor and Defender. Refund some of its cost? It starts to look a lot like a Bomber. Increase its Agility? Unprecedented, and possibly a bit unbalanced.

It’s a serious issue, and while I’ve expected some kind of fix for a long time, I'm almost certain it won't (can’t) be a simple refund or cost reduction.

Also, saying evade action is only worth 1 point on a 2 or 3 agility ship because the unique MF title that grants a 1 agility ship the evade action is silly. It's not a linear cost.

Quite right.

Good thoughts Vorpal. The design space issue and wanting to give the ship "unique" capabilities is one reason that I really like the idea of giving it a free FCS, and a then a -1 point cost for non-Vader ships for good measure. Giving it FCS helps it keep some parity with the X-wing without having to reduce its cost so far that its a different class of ship. It actually makes Cluster missiles good since you get a reroll on the 2nd cluster, but its not quite "broken" good though. I ran the exact numbers near the end of the "Fixing the TIE Advanced" thread.

I noticed someone else is leaving "little things" out of the analysis.

Little things like the other 3-4 ships (or more) per side and starting the advanced in prime position it may never make it to in a game? Since the dials are so similar that if the advanced can do it so can th Xwing? Barrel roll! You'd jump to: makes the advanced -1 attack dice even more ineffective. Evade! You say! Still makes offense worse and 3 green + evade vs. 3-4 red with TL/ or focus favors the Xwing all day. Oh, and on the other side the Xwing is rolling 2-3 green with focus vs. 2-3 unmodified red...another win for the Xwing if we're putting them in real game play, not just 1:1 jousting.

The advanced is overcosted by at least 2pts. Yep, superior flying can help, but superior flying vs. any opponent typically equates a win or at least a more even match. Superior action and dial don't beat the odds as often as people seem to think.

Aye, nice thoughts Vorpal. And indeed, I meant defensive die. Fair enough dig at the cluster missiles, personally I would only ever run them with marksmanship or a second focus (recon for imps). At which point they're doing 3.76 damage a pop, but now they're 7 points. But there are added benefits to both cards (marks + maarek for example). And I wasn't specifically refering to the fighter class in D&D, I meant damage dealer of any sorts. But if you're saying healing isn't important, please play any MMORPG raid and then come back here and tell us your experiences .

As for the /x1 vs. 2 /ln comment, I was stating that during W1, it wasn't worth it to pay 25 points for an /x1 over 2 /ln. That is still true today. However, you now have the /sa sitting at 16 points, 20 with a missile. It is clearly an inferior ship than the /x1, both from a survivability stand point, as well as a dial point of view. It has more upgrades that it can take, but few people run it with more than 2 missiles and a bomb. If you reduce the cost of the /x1 by 2-3 points, the question starts to become "why would I run a /sa for 20 points when I could run a /x1 for 22 points?" Instead of "why would I run a /x1 for 25 points when I could run two /ln for 24 points?" I'm indicating that a pure cost reduction will start to infringe on bomber usage.

I like the idea of a sensor upgrade, but I'm unsure how much it will add to the /x1 without new cards. PS0 during activation isn't particularly useful since they've never really been blockers (though it could potentially make a new niche for them... and with BR, they could possibly be good at it), AdvS is nice sure, but they're not going to be actively blocked since they're not an offensive weapon, and they're too slow to get behind where they're running into the back of the opponents ships. SJ - this is already a very defensive ship, I don't really see any added benefit to SJ on the ship. Which leaves FCS. And on a 2 attack ship, it's kinda useless imo. 25% of the time that you have a TL you aren't going to spend it anyways... and TL+F only adds .38 extra hits (.03-.21 extra damage depending on agi dice and actions). It's also not useful for stacking TL+F for missiles, unless you don't use them on your opening turn. I feel like sensor upgrade would be better on a bomber, making for chain ordnance strikes easier.