They ARE taking a step in the right direction with Munitions Failsafe and some cool control aspects. We might see more lists with a single added bomber that is running Munitions, Flechettes, or the new ion torp.

You got a point, phild.

I'd say those ppl claiming the Bomber to be a good dogfighter have not played serious games against serious and experienced opponents. Sure you can use the k-turn. But thats it. Its all you have. This and 6 hull dont make a good dogfighter.

munitions failsafe should come for 0 points to be of use. Unless you are using flechettes and don't want to hit.

Bombers, like Interceptors, certainly fall into the paper rock scissors type category, as opposed to say XXBB or TIE swarm that has very few good or bad matchups.

That's a really good thing for game design, you don't just want ships with different core stats, you want ships with fundamentally different tactical capabilities.

Unfortunately the tournament results will always be skewed against anything that has a weakness, so it can be difficult to judge balance sometimes.

You got a point, phild.

I'd say those ppl claiming the Bomber to be a good dogfighter have not played serious games against serious and experienced opponents. Sure you can use the k-turn. But thats it. Its all you have. This and 6 hull dont make a good dogfighter.

Definitely not a dogfighter. Once out of ordinance, they can make for fine blockers though. I once won a game against a 4 ship Rebel fleet that had reduced my fleet down to just an Interceptor with 1 hull left and a Bomber with 5 hull. He still had three ships. I started using the bomber as a blocker (and got a few R1 shots out of him) and ended up winning the game.

Right. This makes Bombers to ordnance users - just like they are meant to.

And of course Im fine with the fact that bombers are not good dogfighters.

I would never use an empty bomber - expept for jonus perhaps.

my impression is, that is a generic issue with ordnance that becomes most visible with the bombers, since they rely the most on this feature.

My theory is, that FFG went into secondary weapons with a defensive strategy, trying to avoid making them too strong in the beginning and preventing them from becoming the one and only way to go.

I think the changes with the upcoming expansions (awing refit, z95, new missiles and the muni upgrade) are generally targeted at the global rebalancing of the missile usage/effectiveness.

How and if that improves that the role of the bomber, I can't really say at this point, but it looks like someone has had some thoughts based on past experience. If it works out, we will see and it might be not the last change in that regard.

The biggest drawback with them that I see, is missiles etc cost a lot of points for what you get. Given that Bombers are the only craft that NEED to equip ordnance, it puts them in an odd position.

So here's the distribution of hits and crits on attack dice for (naked) Proton Torpedoes:

0 - 0.00

1 - 0.09

2 - 0.31

3 - 0.41

4 - 0.19

Subtract the defense roll for a focused TIE--arguably one of the worst cases--and you get this:

0 - 0.40

1 - 0.31

2 - 0.21

3 - 0.07

4 - 0.01

Expected damage is just 0.98, which isn't great. On the other hand, it's still better than a 3 Attack primary with TL (0.64), and far better than that primary attack if the TIE is at Range 3 (just 0.35). I've argued for a long time that the extra half a point or so of damage just isn't enough of a boost to justify spending 4 points on it.

But if you get to keep it until you hit, what then? The expected damage for the Torpedoes is now a geometric series, and converges to 1.63 (= 0.98/(1 - 0.40)). It takes about 3 rounds for the X-wing's primary to catch up, which is a nice boost for the 1-point Munitions Failsafe--particularly since the Munitions Failsafe also applies to your second piece of ordnance.

EDIT: Basically, I think the Munitions Failsafe does exactly what we want--makes ordnance much more cost-effective. It does so at a small cost, but IMO it more than earns that back on either cheap generics (e.g., Rookie + Proton Torpedoes + Failsafe) or any ship that has multiple pieces of ordnance to fire.

... IF you can get the torps off. And this is my point. The bombers need a deadeye-like modification or EPT access for deadeye.

I think what makes bombers really shine is...they drop bombs! Seismic charges are cheap and can be devastating if played well. Charges are half the price of most torpedoes and missiles and can injure multiple targets at once. If you have multiple bombers AND each has a charge you can leave happy little presents for your opponent before K-turning.

Those bombs are less effective then you think - if you have an experienced player as opponent.

Too many bombers lost with their bombs still in bays. Bombs can help to scare enemy fighters away from your ass ... but they cant be your only weapon. To win you'll need missiles and torps.

... IF you can get the torps off. And this is my point. The bombers need a deadeye-like modification or EPT access for deadeye.

They're already tougher than X-wings--among fighters, only the Advanced, Defender, and E-wing will live longer on average. You could also build a squad around Jendon and Jonus Colonel Jendon, if you really feel like you need to get that lock from somewhere else:

Colonel Jendon (26)

Advanced Sensors (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Engine Upgrade (4)

ST-321 (3)

Captain Jonus (22)

Wingman (2)

Flechette Torpedoes (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Cluster Missiles (4)

If I could quote asgo, I would because he hit it on the head. It's an over costed ordnance that is the issue, and the bomber must have it to be effective. I think munitions failsafe will be huge for bombers, as will the ion missle. I think taking one bomber and holding him back is a better option than going for the risky slpha. Gives him time to line up his shots and forces your opponent to come get him or ignore him. This usually allows the bomber to get off 2 attacks, and this seems more cost effective than 3 bombers with one shot each. Try a tie screen with a bomber in the back. I also like a long shot, then a shot for when the range closes, such as homing and cluster. Lastly, bombs are awesome. Try out the prox mine. I completely wrecked some ninja b wings who were coming through some asteroids by flying at them and dropping a proxy mine. Those things are awesome for board control and making your enemy go where you want them to go. I think imp players like to play multiples of the same ship, but mixing it up has always worked better for me. Need a bullet sponge? There's a bomber for that. Need to flank? Grab an interceptor. Need to do lots of damage? Mini swarm or possibly shuttle. In my experience, bombers do better than expected late game. They tend to be ignored, and they are hard to kill, don't forget barrel roll when knife fighting. Oh, and do try the proxmines. I love it when a ninja b player realizes that despite his 20 different movement options, he is still screwed.

Bombers are fine. Are you going to use all the upgrade slots, no. But that is okay. The more variety of missiles they get, especially with the failsafe, the better they get. It's all good until a B-wing/Falcon faces a Jonus enhanced Cluster Missile. Seriously, ouch.

Their pilot skill is fine. They are not exactly fragile little TIEs. Just don't overload them with ordnance. Seriously, 2 Missile/Torpedoes will do plenty of damage before you do mop up.

Bombers are fine. Are you going to use all the upgrade slots, no. But that is okay. The more variety of missiles they get, especially with the failsafe, the better they get. It's all good until a B-wing/Falcon faces a Jonus enhanced Cluster Missile. Seriously, ouch.

Their pilot skill is fine. They are not exactly fragile little TIEs. Just don't overload them with ordnance. Seriously, 2 Missile/Torpedoes will do plenty of damage before you do mop up.

Idk, I just disagree. Just too many common lists are bad matchups for ordnance based bomber lists. Heck, just when you run into Biggs you can see that Bombers have less options than other lists.

PS is just a really good counter. For example, say you run a Gamma squad with assault missiles against a PS 6 tie swarm. You line up PERFECTLY and get to target lock 2 PS 6 Ties. Then your opponent moves. He sees the threat of the splash damage and he barrel rolls those 2 ties away from the group. Now the assault missiles are likely only to splash 1 or 2 units, and are almost a waste. And that's IF you get the TL in the first place. Also, you have to count on your opponent not rushing 5 fwd into range 1, meaning you cant use the assault missile anyways.

I think they are going to get better. And honestly, theyARE a blast to play.

I LOVE having one Bomber to support a Swarm. A high damage threat makes helps some of the swarm's bad matchups. Gamma + 2 Homing is okay. But, if you ignore those 2 wasted points on Jonus for his ability, Jonus + 2xhoming + VI is quite a beast when flown with 5 ties.

While I get the point of this thread, I am not sure I agree with it. I don't see TIE Bombers as lacking in their core function: ordnance. The only issue with them is the fundamental issue that ordnance is overpriced for what it does. If that's the case, give them a title that adjusts the cost of ordnance by -1 per card (to a min. of 2). That, combined with Munitions Failsafe, would make them fine. They don't need to dogfight; they weren't meant to. Maybe running 3 or 4 bomber lists isn't intended to be a practical list... ?

Gamma + Seismic + APT (26)

Gamma + Seismic + Assault (25)

Gamma + Seismic + Homing (25)

Howlrunner + Squadleader +Stealth (23)

Has worked really well for me at a few tourneys, including a store championship that I made top 4.

Howl gives the target lock to the focused assault one round, and the APT the next round, and the homing doesn't need the focus that badly. You get your target locks at PS8 so most enemy ships are set by then, and when the ordinance is gone, her rerolls help the dogfighting. Is it Ideal against all lists? no, but it can wreck a good bit of them when flown right. also don't underestimate 3 seismics. Even when I don't drop them on a bunch of ships, they do influence movement decisions for the other guy.

I'm just spitballing here, but what about a Title and/or a Modification that increases PS when firing secondary weapons. Limit it to TIE Bombers (I'd include Ys--though I get the argument against since they have access to turrets). Have it either increase PS, or have it set PS to a specific value.

So in this scenario, your bombers would still be vulnerable to an opponent who can outmaneuver your Bombers, by dial or action, but if you set up appropriately, you wouldn't be blown up before firing.

There would be a few wrinkles to account for. Deadeye would become a more interesting option, since you could then decide to shoot at your normal PS with primaries or enhanced with secondaries. It would make bombers some of the best blockers in the game, since they could move early and shoot early, as long as they have secondaries. It might also introduce un-needed complexity in the combat phase. Finally, I'm not sure if it could be costed effectively, as it would have to cost less than a pure PS upgrade in order for it to have any role whatsoever.

We kind of have the inverse of this in enhanced scopes already, so it may not be entirely unworkable, though in order to be fully effective, ES needs to be taken on high PS ships, which are uniformly expensive since they are restriced to B-wings and Lambdas.

Perhaps invoking the mod/title could cause stress, if it otherwise proves to be too effective.

Like I said, spitballing.

I'm just spitballing here, but what about a Title and/or a Modification that increases PS when firing secondary weapons. Limit it to TIE Bombers (I'd include Ys--though I get the argument against since they have access to turrets). Have it either increase PS, or have it set PS to a specific value.

The problem with bomber PS is not during the shooting phase. It is during the activation phase.

Bombers want to have a TL for the very first round of shooting. Acquiring one on a ship which moves after you is the problem.

I'm just spitballing here, but what about a Title and/or a Modification that increases PS when firing secondary weapons. Limit it to TIE Bombers (I'd include Ys--though I get the argument against since they have access to turrets). Have it either increase PS, or have it set PS to a specific value.

The problem with bomber PS is not during the shooting phase. It is during the activation phase.

Bombers want to have a TL for the very first round of shooting. Acquiring one on a ship which moves after you is the problem.

There is more than one way to skin this cat. Vader with Squad Leader hands out an action at the end of activation phase. The shuttle can hand out TLs. One just has to be creative in creating the synergy needed to keep their squad successful.

You got a point, phild.

I'd say those ppl claiming the Bomber to be a good dogfighter have not played serious games against serious and experienced opponents. Sure you can use the k-turn. But thats it. Its all you have. This and 6 hull dont make a good dogfighter.

And what does the Bomber lack that the Tie Fighter have? Turns? Nope, the bomber's got that. Barrel Roll?? Nope. What else are you expecting it to have?

I have to say that you're being very assumptive saying that more than a few people who have saved it's a decent dogfighter "have not played serious games agains t serious and experienced opponents. Maybe we just use them like a long range dogfighter? And again…i don't see how it's lacking in compared to say a Tie Fighter. Sure, it's got a 2 hard red, but as experienced players will tell you, a 1 forward and 1 curve are usually better in close range combat.

I'm just spitballing here, but what about a Title and/or a Modification that increases PS when firing secondary weapons. Limit it to TIE Bombers (I'd include Ys--though I get the argument against since they have access to turrets). Have it either increase PS, or have it set PS to a specific value.

The problem with bomber PS is not during the shooting phase. It is during the activation phase.

Bombers want to have a TL for the very first round of shooting. Acquiring one on a ship which moves after you is the problem.

Bummer. What about a solution in the form of a title or mod that extends the effective range of a TL action? We've seen the four and five range rulers with the huge ships. Right now the Lambda has a unique title to let it take a TL on anything on the board. I think bombers work pretty well as is, but I'm just tossing ideas out to see if anything works.

You got a point, phild.

I'd say those ppl claiming the Bomber to be a good dogfighter have not played serious games against serious and experienced opponents. Sure you can use the k-turn. But thats it. Its all you have. This and 6 hull dont make a good dogfighter.

And what does the Bomber lack that the Tie Fighter have? Turns? Nope, the bomber's got that. Barrel Roll?? Nope. What else are you expecting it to have?

I have to say that you're being very assumptive saying that more than a few people who have saved it's a decent dogfighter "have not played serious games agains t serious and experienced opponents. Maybe we just use them like a long range dogfighter? And again…i don't see how it's lacking in compared to say a Tie Fighter. Sure, it's got a 2 hard red, but as experienced players will tell you, a 1 forward and 1 curve are usually better in close range combat.

I miss the 1 turn and a non red 2 turn quite a bit Also, the 5 K Turn CAN suck when you have other ships in the fray. Basically means that the Bomber forces to K Turn wont be doing much this turn. The 3 kturn feels much better when you have 2 red dice!

Let' s not assume things like inexperience here, though! Probably doesn't help the discussion! We all have a variety of opinions and experiences. And sporadic dice don't help!

Phil, I'm curious about these bomber builds you've tried. What do you think about something like Howl + Swarm, 3 Academies, and a PTL Rhymer? I've found PTL really helpful, particular to guarantee a massive homing missile hit, but my Jonus and 3 scimitar or gamma squads have fizzled as often as they've scored glorious victories. So many times even though the bomber can get good placement, the 2 attack means you just don't have the power to finish off those other ships.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v2!52:18,-1,34,13,17,-1:-1:-1:;18:9:-1:-1:;10::-1:-1:;10::-1:-1:;10::-1:-1: