So rather than lament this or that ship, (ok, yeah I think it's weird how there's swarm hate but not for the number of xxbb lists), how about some constructive thoughts on adapting? What would you do if you've got a Howlrunner swarm and end up against Blount with assault missiles, or perhaps worse, multiple assault missiles? There have been times when I've just put everything into evades and hope to eat the damage, and it has worked out ok at times, but let's work up some tactics.

Since I usually fly a double column 3 deep with Backstabber running on his own, this could hurt:

Academy Academy

Academy Academy

Nightbeast Howlrunner

I often take that formation to keep and get a tighter turn through tighter asteroids. But what about taking an extended lateral formation? My first thought is to spread out with groups of two just outside of range 1, and then use some barrel rolls to close back up once the missiles have been shot or range cleared. Something like

Academy Academy Academy

Academy Howlrunner NB

Being spread out like this also means we'll have to evade a lot more than focus, since targets won't be as easy to predict, which will further diminish the firepower. There's also a big chance of splitting into a group of 2 and a group of 4.

Another idea, that seems like it would be to hard to do in practice, would be to fly them more like interceptors. Approach from both sides at an angle and try to converge with k-turns in the center after a fly-by, where Howl can then start buffing again. But even if you could coordinate, would be pretty simple to block.

What are you all coming up with?

Lots of play testing is back in order for the swarm to stay on top. I believe you'll have to move away from the swarm until the meta forgets the swarm and list move away from the hate. Once the path is clear pop up win a couple and go back into hiding. Long story short if a Tie swarm was all you played, start practicing other squads.

How to adapt:

1) Accept that Howlrunner is a situational buff to some of your squadron, not an automatic re-roll for every ship. Stop taking it for granted, and be willing to split your ships into multiple smaller groups when there's a serious assault missile threat on the table. Then when you do have a safe opportunity to blob up you can consider giving more than 1-2 ships the Howlrunner re-roll a nice bonus.

2) Be glad they didn't spam homing missiles instead. Blount obviously takes the assault missiles for the certain splash damage, but assault missiles on generic ships are an all or nothing gamble. You can wreck a swarm in one turn, but the basic missiles can all be evaded entirely and leave the Z-95s with nothing but wasted points. Homing missiles, on the other hand, have a very good chance of cleaning up 2-3 wounded ships after Blount gets his auto-splash shot, and don't become useless the moment you break formation.

(ok, yeah I think it's weird how there's swarm hate but not for the number of xxbb lists)

That's because XXBB is such a broad archetype. It pretty much consists of "take four rebel ships that aren't HWKs or ORS", and similar lists like XXXX, BBYY, etc, are really just more of the same. And it's an archetype that is defined by its averageness: it has a good balance between quality and quantity, good but not amazing durability, solid individual firepower but no Wedge/HLC/etc threats, reasonable speed/maneuverability but no match for PTL interceptors, etc. It would be very difficult to imagine any ship/card, short of something stupid like "this ship's attack value is equal to the number of B-wings and X-wings on the table" that would counter a list full of average-at-everything ships without being a game-breaking god ship that would counter everything .

Time to start practicing action denial strategies again.

It works against Gamma Squads, so it won't be too much different.

Z95 is gonna need some sort of action economy squad, imo, to be consistent. Just llike Bombers need Squad leader to get consistent TL.

I don't think much will change.

Squads building Blount to beat swarms may give up too much for other matchups.

I have never really liked the full swarm it make me feel a little dirty, that said a list I want to try is close.

Howlrunner

Backstabber

Dark Curse

2x Blk Sqd

Saber + VI

I think the higher PS might be a kick in the shin to all those list running Rookies and blues

Good one,

i like:

Howlrunner + swarm tactics

Backstabber

Dark Curse

2 black with VI

alpha

or

Howlrunner + swarm tactics

2 black + swarm tactics

2 alpha

academy

This way you have some ships to crash with.

Yeah, I see what you mean about the xxbb having multiple components, but with the stats from the championships no one uses the named pilots, so it's just a choice of blue or dagger and whether you have enough points left after installing your system to put Biggs in. Why I like the Tie swarm is that it requires more than just flying straight and blasting away like the X-wing build from Gencon where he said "I shouldn't have turned. I never turn." So a lot of it's about having more fun flying for me, and so the Carnor + miniswarm is going to be a lot of fun to add more variety.

Still, I wonder if Ties can hold their own at all with Howlrunner being a situational thing. That 2 attack and fragility really needs some kind of buff like that in order to damage these bulky ships. There are so many times that in the end game even I've been chasing down a last rebel ship with an academy or two and even with good position I just can't do damage. Mostly X-wings there, but still.

X Wings just feel like the bane of the Tie Swarm sometimes.

Only modified wins are because I can't finish off an X Wing.

Bring on lots of B Wings PLEASE. That 1 agility means lone academy ties can actually do SOMETHING during those final turns.

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

Interesting. I like the idea, but I don't trust myself with flying something like that, I'm notorious for consistently crashing my ties into one another by 1mm...

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

Interesting. I like the idea, but I don't trust myself with flying something like that, I'm notorious for consistently crashing my ties into one another by 1mm...

It's certainly not something I could fly. I'm better at coming up with tactics than actually getting them to work...

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

I really like this idea, but it'll be tough. Do you think you'd almost want to overshoot the enemy and k-turn around a central point to clump up?

As soon as you expect howlrunner to only affect a couple of ties, you should move to the 8 ties swarm I think.

It has no issues with spreading out (outside of firepower dilution) and has more bodies to soak up missiles.

Starting with Bohrdumb initial formation, you can reduce the splash damage on the alpha strike, then close ranks at close quarters.

Usually I found that I usually want to approach ennemy ships at an angle anyway.

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

I really like this idea, but it'll be tough. Do you think you'd almost want to overshoot the enemy and k-turn around a central point to clump up?

Sure, I'm just not sure your opponent is going to bite on that. If you K turn too early, or too short you end up showing the enemy your backside which is only good to do in Braveheart.

I would wager your best chance is if you're up against a 2-3 ship squad, or low agi ships.

You could also reduce to a 6 Tie Swarm, all with Swarm Tactics so they all attack at PS8. Priority target: Blount with Assault Missile

Howlrunner+Swarm Tactics

3x Black Squadron+Swarm Tactics

Black Squadron+Draw their Fire (to absorb the possible Crit on Howlrunner)

Backstabber or Mauler Mithel

99 or 100 points

I would personally go with Backstabber so I can have the initiative to cancel the eventual Blount+VI

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

The problem with splitting is that a savvy opponent will exploit it. He can just start on one corner and rush forward, meaning some ships might not be in range, which COULD be worse than the assault missiles anyways.

It's a possibility, but you HAVE to approach with appropriate speeds. The farther ships coming fast, the closer ships might even have to 1 Turn and barrel roll dance. That sort of thing.

You could also reduce to a 6 Tie Swarm, all with Swarm Tactics so they all attack at PS8. Priority target: Blount with Assault Missile

Howlrunner+Swarm Tactics

3x Black Squadron+Swarm Tactics

Black Squadron+Draw their Fire (to absorb the possible Crit on Howlrunner)

Backstabber or Mauler Mithel

99 or 100 points

I would personally go with Backstabber so I can have the initiative to cancel the eventual Blount+VI

Trying to rush Blount and take him out will be key. But what happens when Blount flanks? You can't turn towards him if the other 70+pts of the enemy squad end up on your tail. Just a thought! I DO like the PS8 bid in general.

That is a lot better than the 8 swarm, mostly because I don't want to get an 8th Tie. I suppose if Blount flanks and you can't turn on him and take a lot of evades to weather the other shots then you live with the damage and hope that you at least take down one of the other ships before it gets to shoot? Who knows how it'll work out with the meta, but I imagine that people will use Blount and a cheap Z-95 along with two named beefier ships in order to keep four but work in some of those other abilities. So there would be a decent shot of popping a filler Z-95 or maybe an X/B if you can get in close. At that point though you'd need to skip the evades and just go all in on focus. Setting up for 5 straights is going to be key now.

If you see that your opponent wants to flank with Blount, you could always hard turn at the start and reposition before the fight has begun or, like Bonaparte said, accept to eat the missile and go as intended against the main fleet while flanking with Backstabber, who will get a nice shot at 3-4 dice against Blount before he can shoot, unless he took VI.

Either way, all your Tie will have shot before he can shoot the missile and (unless he decided to include an elite pilot) before all his ship. If you can destroy one before he has the chance to retaliate, that's a win situation: His 22 pts ship will be in bad situation because he left Backstabber shoot him in the ass and there is good chance with 5 Tie shooting with focus+reroll that another one is destroyed or in very bad shape. That seems like a good trade.

Good ideas!

I'm just trying to say, it's tough to make these tactics in a vaccuum, as your opponent will be active and thinking as well! I know what I would do to negate that missile based off initial setup, but my opponent might have a game plan to stop me.

Just weathering the missile with minimal damage is probably what to aim for. Barrel roll away the high PS ships, action denial, maybe. I don't think we will be doing anything we don't already do.

I wonder how it would go if you spread your TIEs across the board with the intention of gather mid-field. You're not starting together, but you're moving into a central formation, and then breaking off. Something like:

/_____|_____|_____|_____\ with each vertical line denoting a ship in your squad.

The key would be understanding speed(both you and your opponent), making sure you clump at the right time to hit, but not be struck back while clustered.

The problem with splitting is that a savvy opponent will exploit it. He can just start on one corner and rush forward, meaning some ships might not be in range, which COULD be worse than the assault missiles anyways.

It's a possibility, but you HAVE to approach with appropriate speeds. The farther ships coming fast, the closer ships might even have to 1 Turn and barrel roll dance. That sort of thing.

Certainly it's not a perfect strategy, nor an easy one. Just something to consider.

A Rebel Swarm is now a realistic threat to the Imperal Swarm.

Airien Cracken PS 8 with SL 21 points

Lt. Blount PS 6 with Ass. Miss. 22 points

Bandit squadron with Ass. Miss and shield upgrade. 21 points

Bandit squadron x3 36 points

Total 100 points.

that's 6 ships with 2 carrying ordinance. PS is 8, 6, 2, 2, 2, 2.

OR with A-wings

Airien Cracken PS 8 with ST 22 points

Lt. Blount PS 6 with Ass. Miss. 22 points

Prot with Refit 15 points x 3 45 points

11 points left over for shield x2 and a hull, or upgrade to Green with 5 points left over.

Rebel anti-swarm swarms are comming gents...

A Rebel Swarm is now a realistic threat to the Imperal Swarm.

Airien Cracken PS 8 with SL 21 points

Lt. Blount PS 6 with Ass. Miss. 22 points

Bandit squadron with Ass. Miss and shield upgrade. 21 points

Bandit squadron x3 36 points

Total 100 points.

that's 6 ships with 2 carrying ordinance. PS is 8, 6, 2, 2, 2, 2.

OR with A-wings

Airien Cracken PS 8 with ST 22 points

Lt. Blount PS 6 with Ass. Miss. 22 points

Prot with Refit 15 points x 3 45 points

11 points left over for shield x2 and a hull, or upgrade to Green with 5 points left over.

Rebel anti-swarm swarms are comming gents...

So...Seismic Charges?

I can think of few things better than dropping a proton bomb in a swarm of Z-95s.

Thinking about sending a Tie Fighter to flank, I wonder if Mauler+Opportunist would do the job. That's potentially 5 attack dice at range 1. It would make you think twice about taking a target lock or a k-turn. And he's PS7 so he does attack before Blount.

Actually, Mauler+Opportunist and Carnor Jax can make a sick combo if used properly.