Let's just say that Wave 4 marks the beginning of a new era, where the size of the game in standard play expands to 150 from 100.

How will this change the game? Which faction do you think will benefit most from this change?

Just to give you an idea, imagine you had a list with another geared out Falcon, 2x B-Wings or 4x Ties.

I think it'd be equal. The only real change would be much more cluttered boards and longer time to play a game.

You'd prolly see the HWK/Lambda and other support/less seen ships more often though.

This game is impeccably balanced in my opinion.

Hrm... I don't think it would affect balance that much. More points for rebels means more tough ships. More points for imps means more swarm ships so it kind of evens out.

150 points is a lot of TIEs...

The one guaranteed effect would be to make games longer. It would accordingly be harder to play competitively--either logistically more difficult to manage, or more frequently ending in inconclusive and unsatisfying situations, depending on whether time limits were expanded to match.

So both factions would suffer.

I know this is a "What If" thread, so I'll keep it short. I just don't see standard play changing, as point values are so well-thought for 100 points. If you look thru the cards in the game, a number of cards are exactly 1 point too expensive to be able to field the next multiple of them. IE, X-wings start at 21 points, so the max you have have is 4 as 84 points. If they started at 20, you could field 5.

However, larger format games can be fun! So, if I were you, I would be looking forward to Cinematic and Epic play, which will likely feature far increased squad point rules to accommodate capital ships. In fact, I would guess that most of Wave 4, with the exception of the gleefully cheap Z95, are designed with the new game formats in mind, because of their high point cost. FFG loves to support multiple formats, too, so people will get to play their preferred flavor going forward.

My 2 cents.

Played a 200 point game recently, it was a blast. Seemed very balanced and came down to a slightly damaged falcon vs an undamaged firespray.

150 points is a lot of TIEs...

12, one of whom is Howlrunner.... yeesh!

I know this is a speculative thread, so I'll keep it short. I just don't see standard play changing, as point values are so well-thought for 100 points. If you look thru the cards in the game, a number of cards are exactly 1 point too expensive to be able to field the next multiple of them. IE, X-wings start at 21 points, so the max you have have is 4 as 84 points. If they started at 20, you could field 5.

However, larger format games can be fun! So, if I were you, I would be looking forward to Cinematic and Epic play, which will likely feature far increased squad point rules to accommodate capital ships. In fact, I would guess that most of Wave 4, with the exception of the gleefully cheap Z95, are designed with the new game formats in mind, because of their high point cost. FFG loves to support multiple formats, too, so people will get to play their preferred flavor going forward.

My 2 cents.

Your observation is both logical and worrisome.

The X-Wing example you gave makes perfect sense, and there's often times where 100 points is simply not enough for the most optimized force. However, what you said about the Defender and other Wave4 ships worry me greatly. If those ships were designed to be more expensive with Cinematic/Epic mode in mind, then I think that's a huge mistake.

10 academy pilots all with stealth device Vs 6 X-Wings of various named pilots. Seems fun and yet a 2 hour game.

150 points let's see

7 shuttles

12 Ties

8 bombers

As much fun as I would love to see 150 points it would be tough as nails to finish in under 90 minutes when 12 z95s and 12 ties are on the field.

Recently in order to try out pilots and upgrades I haven't used before in the 1-2 games I get in weekly I have played all 150 point games. I've found that although it does take longer to setup, plan moves, and physically move, the action picks up a few rounds in and ships stop dropping from the increased amount of ships and dice. Most of my games took about 1 and a half hours. Of course generally I didn't play swarm type lists because I was aiming to use upgrades a lot more, so it could take longer if your just focusing on using as many ships as possible.

I know this is a speculative thread, so I'll keep it short. I just don't see standard play changing, as point values are so well-thought for 100 points. If you look thru the cards in the game, a number of cards are exactly 1 point too expensive to be able to field the next multiple of them. IE, X-wings start at 21 points, so the max you have have is 4 as 84 points. If they started at 20, you could field 5.

However, larger format games can be fun! So, if I were you, I would be looking forward to Cinematic and Epic play, which will likely feature far increased squad point rules to accommodate capital ships. In fact, I would guess that most of Wave 4, with the exception of the gleefully cheap Z95, are designed with the new game formats in mind, because of their high point cost. FFG loves to support multiple formats, too, so people will get to play their preferred flavor going forward.

My 2 cents.

Your observation is both logical and worrisome.

The X-Wing example you gave makes perfect sense, and there's often times where 100 points is simply not enough for the most optimized force. However, what you said about the Defender and other Wave4 ships worry me greatly. If those ships were designed to be more expensive with Cinematic/Epic mode in mind, then I think that's a huge mistake.

Wouldn't disagree with you, but it's just a guess. Could be completely wrong.

I know this is a speculative thread, so I'll keep it short. I just don't see standard play changing, as point values are so well-thought for 100 points. If you look thru the cards in the game, a number of cards are exactly 1 point too expensive to be able to field the next multiple of them. IE, X-wings start at 21 points, so the max you have have is 4 as 84 points. If they started at 20, you could field 5.

However, larger format games can be fun! So, if I were you, I would be looking forward to Cinematic and Epic play, which will likely feature far increased squad point rules to accommodate capital ships. In fact, I would guess that most of Wave 4, with the exception of the gleefully cheap Z95, are designed with the new game formats in mind, because of their high point cost. FFG loves to support multiple formats, too, so people will get to play their preferred flavor going forward.

My 2 cents.

Your observation is both logical and worrisome.

The X-Wing example you gave makes perfect sense, and there's often times where 100 points is simply not enough for the most optimized force. However, what you said about the Defender and other Wave4 ships worry me greatly. If those ships were designed to be more expensive with Cinematic/Epic mode in mind, then I think that's a huge mistake.

I think that these ships were designed to be played in normal format primarily, but with cinematic and epic play taking up a small percent of why everything is the way it is. The more expensive ships may not seem fair for 100 points, but I'm sure there are plenty of strategies and upgrade combos for using them in the regular format

I don't think that the game change with W4, it could change with the Tantive IV, because it cost only with the two parts 90, without all the upgrades that the ship need, so I expect that the ship cost 150, so the Imperial squad need to expand, greettings.

I know this is a speculative thread, so I'll keep it short. I just don't see standard play changing, as point values are so well-thought for 100 points. If you look thru the cards in the game, a number of cards are exactly 1 point too expensive to be able to field the next multiple of them. IE, X-wings start at 21 points, so the max you have have is 4 as 84 points. If they started at 20, you could field 5.

However, larger format games can be fun! So, if I were you, I would be looking forward to Cinematic and Epic play, which will likely feature far increased squad point rules to accommodate capital ships. In fact, I would guess that most of Wave 4, with the exception of the gleefully cheap Z95, are designed with the new game formats in mind, because of their high point cost. FFG loves to support multiple formats, too, so people will get to play their preferred flavor going forward.

My 2 cents.

Your observation is both logical and worrisome.

The X-Wing example you gave makes perfect sense, and there's often times where 100 points is simply not enough for the most optimized force. However, what you said about the Defender and other Wave4 ships worry me greatly. If those ships were designed to be more expensive with Cinematic/Epic mode in mind, then I think that's a huge mistake.

I think that these ships were designed to be played in normal format primarily, but with cinematic and epic play taking up a small percent of why everything is the way it is. The more expensive ships may not seem fair for 100 points, but I'm sure there are plenty of strategies and upgrade combos for using them in the regular format

Oh, I definitely agree with that, and didn't mean to sound contrary. I fully expect the ships to be worth their high cost. They will likely find competitive spots is lists followed by fighters of other types. But, I doubt it will be deemed competitive to run 3 Defenders or 3E wings in the 100 point format like it is to run seven TIEs or four x wings, while it might be more common in larger games.

I doubt it will ever see it's way into Competitive play, because of aforementioned time restraints.

However…in casual play it's a total blast, and i prefer it alot more than the 100 point squads. Support ships are a much more important and useful investment, as are upgrades - and even more survivable ships (like the Advanced ). In 100 point matches you have to make every point count, but in 150 you can be a little more lenient and get nearly anything you want.

Interestingly enough, the game would take longer.

But I don't think it would be as much of a difference in play time as people think; definitely not a 50% increase in time.

Think of this: the more ships you have on the table, the more shots there are at the beginning. With this concentrated fire, more things will die very early on (likely in the initial joust) leaving not much more to play out the rest of the game as normal. Furthermore, larger forces make it more likely that one side will come out significantly ahead in the initial pass, meaning that mopping up the remaining enemies will be even easier.

And before anyone says 10 ties with SD or a bunch of similarly tanks A-Wings would make the game take way too long, realize that they already do! Tanks builds slow the game down a ton as is. Having more shots on them at least increases the likelihood of something dying earlier...

Our local group played a bunch of 150pt games over a month or two. Nothing changed. Just more named pilots, and longer games. The biggest limiting factor was simply how many ships people owned. No one was going to go out and buy another half dozen ships just to add more base units to the map.

Our local group played a bunch of 150pt games over a month or two. Nothing changed. Just more named pilots, and longer games. The biggest limiting factor was simply how many ships people owned. No one was going to go out and buy another half dozen ships just to add more base units to the map.

I must be in the select few that would... I own 8 tie fighters and plan on getting at least another 4.

The X-Wing example you gave makes perfect sense, and there's often times where 100 points is simply not enough for the most optimized force. .

If we're playing What If, I would say a more balanced number would be 120.

The X-Wing example you gave makes perfect sense, and there's often times where 100 points is simply not enough for the most optimized force. .

I'm curious as to what you mean by this. I think no matter what the point cost, you're going to feel you want to squeeze more in, and once you increase the game size, your now optimized force is no longer optimized because you're facing different kinds of lists than you were before.

FFG designed "hard choices" into the game at the 100pt mark. The number of builds that naturally come to ~105-110 is huge. Much more so than the number that come to 125 or 90 or another number. The same can be said about 55 vs. 50 or 60. Which is why its recommended when you're playing a smaller force to use 55 instead of 50. Examples have been given, but the best are the 12 pt Academy (when it should have been 11 by all accounts) and the 21 point X wing. But there are dozens of more examples.

I would love to see larger games. I would also love to see a large play surface and more obstacles. As for play time in tournaments, I found X-Wing to be overly generous, as anyone who has played in a 50 point Warmachine Deathclock tournament can attest to.

Here is what I would love to see:

1) increase to 150 points or even 200.

2) increase in table size

3) increase in the number of obstacles

4) objectives and scenarios, beyond the gimicky ones that come with the expansions.

5) deathclock mechanism.

For those unfamiliar with Deathclock it functions as follows:

Each player is allocated a certain amount of time for the ENTIRE game. This is put into a chess clock style timer (actual chess clocks, kitchen egg times, app on your phone, etc.) Everytime the game is waiting on you, you have your time engaged and your time is ticking away. When your opponent is moving, your time is stopped. If you run out of time, you loose.

How would this work for X-Wing? Simple:

Say for 100 points each player gets 30 minutes of time. You set up the asteroids, then deploy your fleets and the moment the game starts, both player start their timers. Timers are ticking down while you set your dials. Once you have placed all your timers down, you stop your timer. Then, as you activate one of your ships, you start the timer and turn it off when you stop activating your ships. Same with firing weapons.

And then rinse and repeat.

I think the limited time would add a sense of urgency and panic to the game that would really fit with the dog fight feel. Already this is my favourite game, and I have had epic battles where Tycho was weaving and dodging against Howlrunner for like 14 turns, but those turns were slow as we tried to out guess each other and analyze what the best move was. Imagine if you not only had to worry about where he was going to go, but how much time you had left to play? Split second decisions! Like realy dog fights.

I would love to see larger games. I would also love to see a large play surface and more obstacles. As for play time in tournaments, I found X-Wing to be overly generous, as anyone who has played in a 50 point Warmachine Deathclock tournament can attest to.

Here is what I would love to see:

1) increase to 150 points or even 200.

2) increase in table size

3) increase in the number of obstacles

4) objectives and scenarios, beyond the gimicky ones that come with the expansions.

5) deathclock mechanism.

For those unfamiliar with Deathclock it functions as follows:

Each player is allocated a certain amount of time for the ENTIRE game. This is put into a chess clock style timer (actual chess clocks, kitchen egg times, app on your phone, etc.) Everytime the game is waiting on you, you have your time engaged and your time is ticking away. When your opponent is moving, your time is stopped. If you run out of time, you loose.

How would this work for X-Wing? Simple:

Say for 100 points each player gets 30 minutes of time. You set up the asteroids, then deploy your fleets and the moment the game starts, both player start their timers. Timers are ticking down while you set your dials. Once you have placed all your timers down, you stop your timer. Then, as you activate one of your ships, you start the timer and turn it off when you stop activating your ships. Same with firing weapons.

And then rinse and repeat.

I think the limited time would add a sense of urgency and panic to the game that would really fit with the dog fight feel. Already this is my favourite game, and I have had epic battles where Tycho was weaving and dodging against Howlrunner for like 14 turns, but those turns were slow as we tried to out guess each other and analyze what the best move was. Imagine if you not only had to worry about where he was going to go, but how much time you had left to play? Split second decisions! Like realy dog fights.

Well that then becomes another factor (as it does in warmachine).

Do I take a smaller, more time efficient elite list, or do I take a bloated swarm?

I do agree about the pain in flipping back and forth for timing, so ya maybe just Deathclock for dial setting. But that would mean even less time.