Your "rules attorney" should also be aware that the GM has the final say. Period.

If need be, you can remind him that this is also stated as a rule in the book.

I'd say, every time, that it would depend on the player/character/setting for your campaign.

Why do they want the tree? Just to throw things around? Or because they think their character would know it?

Do YOU think your setting supports it?

If no, then make him earn it. But make sure you give them some opportunities. I have a players who want Force powers. I gave them a Sith Holocron (which they had to work their asses off for). Its now up to them to learn how to access it. Which takes research, dedication, focus, and personal time.

When they do? They can take FSE if they want.

If it helps, I've recently (and inadvertently) gotten an FSE in my game. They are basically a Politico with FSE added in, with the explanation that they are a Zeltron and the powers an FSE is given can be an expansion on the latent abilities of the species (Pheromones and Empathy). He has no interest in purchasing powers, as we both agree that powers are a thing to learn and/or have a really good RP reason to acquire.

As of this moment, the talker is now a beast of an orator. This won't horribly unbalance the game, as there's only so much one can do with talking alone, and as the FSE essentially adds bonuses to these rolls, there's always, ALWAYS the chance for an epic failure of catastrophic proportions.

A lot of TLDR here so I'll be brief.

It would be unwise to start the game with only the FSE Tree as it comes with no Career or Specialization Skills.

It's also against the character creation rules which spell out you select a career and then specialization. I would let someone spend the 20xp on the Exile/Emergent trees to start though if they had their background story squared away.

Hi there!

As other people probably told you, my suggestion is that you, as GM, are the one who permit things.

In d20 on of my players just wanted to buy ranks on Swim, but I didn't allowed him to buy that skill just because he ever seen water in its game XD

First fun, second rules, but common sense and agreements between GM and players is the key of an harmonious game. Just because a player can pick up "destroy the galaxy with my mind" power just for 5 XP that he adquired killing a pack of womp rats, this doesn't mean that he can buy it

Hope I helped!

Sounds like you have two issues. Lets hit them separately.

Just wanted to ask some more experienced GM's out there thier thoughts on this subject. My "rules attorney" in my group has expressed that there are no rules that govern that a person can't purchase the force talent tree as long as they pay the proper amount of XP to get it.

Technically no, there's no rules against it. That said, there are strong suggestions throughout the whole book that the FFG engine is story driven, so any character getting a life changing experience like The Force should have some rock solid backstory backing him up, and not selecting the Force because it makes him cool. So while I would say "go ahead and take it", I would also mandate it with a "Why are you taking this?"

I also have a conudrum because I have a FSE that at character creation created a FSE and had a totally bad ass backstory. He is also the perfect PC as he doesn't cause problems doesn't ask for ridiculous crap and just wants to do cool stuff, but the other players want everything and be as bad as possible so they can totally derail every adventure that I throw at them.

Well, we could go with the "GM Punishes the Players" route, but that's always a bad idea. I'd start out with just talking to them, addressing their concenrns about their bad-assery throwing off the story (Asuming you mean "they want to be as bad as possible" in the One Bad Muther- like Shaft and not incompetent like Jar-jar). Find out what they want from the game, present what you want to see in the game and see if you cant come to a compromise between the two, where all parties will be happy. Give them occasional Shaft Moments and they promise to follow the story more.

Well I do appreciate all of the responses and alot of you have some really good points. I have decided to deal with this situation as such.

The last mission the party has essential doing a job for the Rebels and in comes Boba Fett, (which they had dealt with earlier in the mission) and captures them by throwing a couple of glop grenades and taking them into custody. They were taken to Jabba on Tatooine and are sitting in Jabba's prision.

So without giving away too many spoilers as we are playing this mission on Fri and they will have Mara Jade come to Jabba's palace and the Empire will pay Jabba for thier release, because the Emperor has a job for them. What they will find out is that alll of thier equipment i.e. weapons,ship, armor is gone. A reset button if you will. The job will be to seek out a forsaken Jedi that is out beyond the Dune Sea. The party will essentially need to go to a pawn shop and buy new equipment. They will not be allowed to purchase anything above rarity 4 which makes alot off limits. Now they wil have to deal with this forsaken Jedi that will probably kill most of them and we will have to reset and start of with a new rule set and no force talent trees purchasable unless a solid back story can explain how you learned of the force.

Thanks for all you comments this really helped me with my conundrum.

I like the idea that after the game starts they need a story reason if they want to become force sensitive.

So far I'm actually more inclined towards restricting access to force powers rather than access to the talent trees. Curious if I read that properly they only really need the one force career speciality as long as they have some means to learn any force power currently listed in either Edge of the Empire or Age of Rebellion.

Makes me wonder who will suss out that the archaeologist might be well worth investing in if they want to discover ancient Force artefacts if they can't find a surviving and willing tutor?

My English teacher would be having hysterics at how bad my grammar is!!

Isn't the main story reason for being Force Sensitive just "born with it?" I don't know what GMs want here other than having players jump through hoops.

The way that buying into the specialization works already encourages things to gradually unfold. You buy the spec, and end up with nothing really; just a Force Rating that you can't use yet. That's the "something is different" moment right there. It's only once a player starts buying into force powers (or certain talents from the tree) that it has any real impact on the narrative.

Well I do appreciate all of the responses and alot of you have some really good points. I have decided to deal with this situation as such.

The last mission the party has essential doing a job for the Rebels and in comes Boba Fett, (which they had dealt with earlier in the mission) and captures them by throwing a couple of glop grenades and taking them into custody. They were taken to Jabba on Tatooine and are sitting in Jabba's prision.

So without giving away too many spoilers as we are playing this mission on Fri and they will have Mara Jade come to Jabba's palace and the Empire will pay Jabba for thier release, because the Emperor has a job for them. What they will find out is that alll of thier equipment i.e. weapons,ship, armor is gone. A reset button if you will. The job will be to seek out a forsaken Jedi that is out beyond the Dune Sea. The party will essentially need to go to a pawn shop and buy new equipment. They will not be allowed to purchase anything above rarity 4 which makes alot off limits. Now they wil have to deal with this forsaken Jedi that will probably kill most of them and we will have to reset and start of with a new rule set and no force talent trees purchasable unless a solid back story can explain how you learned of the force.

Thanks for all you comments this really helped me with my conundrum.

Kind of a lot of work just for a reset button (and I really hate GMs gunning for characters anyway). Like I said, I'm a big supporter of talking it out with your players (or talking it out with your GM) if there's an issue. If the game is truly beyond saving, then just pull the plug and start fresh and don't go with a convoluted Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies option.

If you go ahead with your plan without addressing the underlying problem, what's to stop the players from pushing as hard as they can to be badasses messing up the story. Sure they wont have the gear at the start, but they'll always be trying to get the Next Big Score and tip the balance into Badassery again. However if you get everyone on the same page, a consensus of "These are the types of stories we want to tell" from everyone at the table, then they'll be less likely to be disruptive in the future.

Isn't the main story reason for being Force Sensitive just "born with it?" I don't know what GMs want here other than having players jump through hoops.

My thinking on making the players jump through hoops is more of a "Why do you want the Force". If the answer is "Becuase l33t POWARZ!" - this is the wrong answer. If the answer is "because it fits in with this concept that I wanted to do", then we can proceed.

I guess I want my Jedi to be more than a set of numbers that can throw around an X-Wing and choke a ***** from across the room.

I would like to be clear with everyone here that I don't feel that the force breaks the game, it is not even OP. What I do have a problem with is that if you decide that you want to take it so that you can take your combat monkey and now make the GM have to upgrade the ability dice cause he has Control Upgrade plus the Strength upgrade skill which adds additional upgrade to the difficulty. You can all see where this is going. The PC also is a wookie that has a mod'd vibroaxe that crits every roll and has a vicious rating that adds 50 to the crit roll.

It may seem as if I am whinning I am just saying it is really hard to provide a challenge to this character. I did however send an assassin droid from the CRB that has a built in missle tub which took his wounds down to 0 with one shot so he does have a fear of dying now.

Thanks again guys

I would like to be clear with everyone here that I don't feel that the force breaks the game, it is not even OP. What I do have a problem with is that if you decide that you want to take it so that you can take your combat monkey and now make the GM have to upgrade the ability dice cause he has Control Upgrade plus the Strength upgrade skill which adds additional upgrade to the difficulty. You can all see where this is going. The PC also is a wookie that has a mod'd vibroaxe that crits every roll and has a vicious rating that adds 50 to the crit roll.

It may seem as if I am whinning I am just saying it is really hard to provide a challenge to this character. I did however send an assassin droid from the CRB that has a built in missle tub which took his wounds down to 0 with one shot so he does have a fear of dying now.

Thanks again guys

Most GMs run into this problem from time to time, especially with level-based games like the classic Dungeons and Dragons. There are times were a character is higher level with more capabilities than his or her compatriots, and a new threat has to be added in to put them in check.

For a Star Wars game, I'd like to offer the following:

1) A Force Sensitive Opponent. It doesn't have to be an Emperor's Hand, it could just be a self-trained mook that can hold their own and/or have capabilities that counter your strong guy.

2) A Counter-Foe. This is the guy that can "shut down" or negate capabilities of party members. This can range from a Force-user that learned how to "tune out" the power of your player to someone who somehow has a ysilimari.

3) An Emperor's Hand or similar Might Of The Empire. This type of thing instills fear in the hearts of most players, especially if they barely walk away with their lives after the encounter and now have a nemesis chasing them. Basically, the more they abuse the Force, the higher the chance of creating a "disturbance" to those who can sense it and, therefore, they will get some unwanted attention.

Most Emperor's Hands work solo, but they often can "pull rank" as needed and get the necessary support, like a squad of stormtroopers or, if they want disposable goons, any hired rabble they can find. Said rabble acts as a distraction while they focus on the target in question.

4) Similar to the above, the Forgotten Jedi. Basically he's the bum that was at the nearby alley finding a dry place to sleep and feels a disturbance in the Force and comes rushing over hoping to find someone he knows and finds the player. If the player is a violent type, they may not work very well with the Jedi, who assumes that they will follow Sith teachings instead and goes through everything to stop this player.

Added bonus if said ex-Jedi is delusional and/or mentally insane.

4) A Jedi Hunter. There are a good number of bounty hunters that have made their living on hunting Jedi, and they of course need the skills to handle it. If you get one with a very narrow focus, they will ignore the rest of the party or offer up other "distractions" to deal with them.

These hunters have a great deal of skill AND have bits of gear that most Jedi wouldn't expect, so you can imagine how they'd mess with someone who's just Force Sensitive.

5) Other ways of "takeout." This includes things like environmental hazards, beasts, and even just a well time gas leak.

There are a plethora of ways of dealing with it in a reactionary way, but I understand that some of them get cheesey. If they players start to hate the situation after a while, make it known that things have become unbalanced, and you have been trying to reattain it. Sometimes, when a group realizes that one player has borked the power scale, many members will often step up and help settle the situation for the sake of the game.

Isn't the main story reason for being Force Sensitive just "born with it?" I don't know what GMs want here other than having players jump through hoops.

I think it's more about what life event caused you to realize that you were Force sensitive. My character, for example, started smuggling for the Rebellion in her background (partially why she's a murder hobo right now). The force guided her to the journal of a now dead padawan who briefly escaped Order 66. It was this journal that opened her up to the Force. Another example is is Luke, who was simply told by Obi-Wan that he was strong in the Force. Prior to that, he just didn't realize it.

As Desslok said, it's a story question to justify the purchase. If thr player really wants to do it, go nuts. If thr player is just being a bum hat, he should rethink it. On a related note, I was playing through the Beginner adventure with a bounty hunter. When we got the mid-session XP (so we could actually spend it), I tamed with the GM about how to pick up the Juryrigged talent and suddenly improve a piece of equipment. It was perfectly fine for me to just take it, but I wanted the decision to make sense and be kind of cool. That's what taking a Force specialization is supposed to be.

Isn't the main story reason for being Force Sensitive just "born with it?" I don't know what GMs want here other than having players jump through hoops.

My thinking on making the players jump through hoops is more of a "Why do you want the Force". If the answer is "Becuase l33t POWARZ!" - this is the wrong answer. If the answer is "because it fits in with this concept that I wanted to do", then we can proceed.

I guess I want my Jedi to be more than a set of numbers that can throw around an X-Wing and choke a ***** from across the room.

See, I think that's more of a player problem. Rules can't fix player problems.

Isn't the main story reason for being Force Sensitive just "born with it?" I don't know what GMs want here other than having players jump through hoops.

I think it's more about what life event caused you to realize that you were Force sensitive. My character, for example, started smuggling for the Rebellion in her background (partially why she's a murder hobo right now). The force guided her to the journal of a now dead padawan who briefly escaped Order 66. It was this journal that opened her up to the Force. Another example is is Luke, who was simply told by Obi-Wan that he was strong in the Force. Prior to that, he just didn't realize it.

My thought here is that there is a chicken/egg thing going on. To have those moments where a character starts to realize that they may have a talent with the Force, a character has to not only have the spec, but also buy into a power so that there can be some effect on the narrative. Of course, the character wouldn't know they have the power, but the player would be guiding their story that way.

I definitely think a player should work a story around that development, rather than just waking up one day and yanking star destroyers out of the sky. It's just that you can't have a secret talent that occasionally shows up when there is no actual talent there. It's like having a character that has an undiscovered talent at piloting when the character has an agility of 2 and no ranks in the skill. The crunch doesn't support the narrative you are telling.

Maybe it's just that I think the player can put down talents/powers on the sheet that the character doesn't know they have. The player knows the pilot prodigy has an agility of 4, but the character thinks they would be terrible at piloting.

Isn't the main story reason for being Force Sensitive just "born with it?" I don't know what GMs want here other than having players jump through hoops.

The way that buying into the specialization works already encourages things to gradually unfold. You buy the spec, and end up with nothing really; just a Force Rating that you can't use yet. That's the "something is different" moment right there. It's only once a player starts buying into force powers (or certain talents from the tree) that it has any real impact on the narrative.

The point is to encourage players thinking about it before the game starts. Look at Leia. She was born FS but didn't tap into her latent talent until she was nearing middle age. Presumably she always had a low degree of sensitivity but couldn't use it. That's not what FR 1 is supposed to represent; I'd say FR 1 is supposed to be a Jedi initiate (just adopted by the order, a child but displaying sensitivity) or someone who has naturally developed the talent consciously or subconsciously. Leia presumably had it (even if that was an EU deus ex machina since she never displayed anything Force-like in the OT) but Imo shouldn't be treated as FR 1.

What I want is some thought put into it, and if not starting with FS, a plot hook for the player to experience as a story to develop sensitivity if they choose to. Letting a player save some XP and say "by the way, I'm Force-Sensitive, gimme dat FR 1 nao, PS I'm also buying other Force stuff nao" is narratively bulls*** and equally a pain as having some arbitrary FR 1 that you are not allowed to use due to a wholly other GM Fiat.

I would like to be clear with everyone here that I don't feel that the force breaks the game, it is not even OP.

Well, that's not entirely true, but I agree that this system does not encourage the d20 notion of "take X as a mechanic with no narrative connection to anything else" like the complicated multiclass/PrC builds from D&D or even Saga.

My thought here is that there is a chicken/egg thing going on. To have those moments where a character starts to realize that they may have a talent with the Force, a character has to not only have the spec, but also buy into a power so that there can be some effect on the narrative. Of course, the character wouldn't know they have the power, but the player would be guiding their story that way.

I sort of disagree with this on the point that I think delayed gratification of presently-spent XP isn't really fair to the player that spent it.

My personal opinion as a better and more narrative method is that I don't think a character NEEDS to have FR 1 to start having inklings of it; if the player has brought up this interest to the GM before, the GM can certainly work Force-like spider sense or visions or whatever into the character's life before they ever buy into FSEx and get FR 1. That's the narrative solution, really, that could spur an interest in what's happening to them and lead them to a method of training or self-actualization that would justify actually buying the spec.

The point is to encourage players thinking about it before the game starts. Look at Leia. She was born FS but didn't tap into her latent talent until she was nearing middle age. Presumably she always had a low degree of sensitivity but couldn't use it. That's not what FR 1 is supposed to represent; I'd say FR 1 is supposed to be a Jedi initiate (just adopted by the order, a child but displaying sensitivity) or someone who has naturally developed the talent consciously or subconsciously. Leia presumably had it (even if that was an EU deus ex machina since she never displayed anything Force-like in the OT) but Imo shouldn't be treated as FR 1.

What I want is some thought put into it, and if not starting with FS, a plot hook for the player to experience as a story to develop sensitivity if they choose to. Letting a player save some XP and say "by the way, I'm Force-Sensitive, gimme dat FR 1 nao, PS I'm also buying other Force stuff nao" is narratively bulls*** and equally a pain as having some arbitrary FR 1 that you are not allowed to use due to a wholly other GM Fiat.

Leia is a great example, because Lucas had no idea she was related to Luke when she was first written (that was something he introduced after Leigh Brackett's treatment of The Empire Strikes Back). We can't anticipate how a story will change a character – that goes double for roleplaying. Discovery is part of the fun of play. I don't think locking down options makes the game either more fun or more "real."

I was wondering how would you feel if after the game starts and a player comes to you asking about becoming force sensitive.

Would you agree if another player whose character is force sensitive agrees to tutor them using their experiences to help them realise they're also force sensitive?

If no such character is present in the party would them making contact with a Rebel cell that ultimately locates a suitable tutor so they can become a Force Emergent be a good way to handle this?

If that player comes up with their own explanation what criteria would you use to decide whether its actually suitable?

What if they want to become a Dark Jedi or Sith in an Edge game would that be agreeable with you?

Personally the group I roleplay with has no force users, largely because no one wants the obilgation of being one and also that they typically make terribly boring characters. I can't even begin to tell you how many sith/Crazy old men I saw in the D20 system.

If they wanted to be force senstive though, I would personally allow them as the abilties on there are largely passive traits that can really make him have the force occur around him or her in subtle ways., but I wouldn't allow them to pick up any old force power without flying it by me first. They may not necessarily need a mentor for it, after all even the annicent Jedi had to have eventurally learnt how to turn their mind to bigger things, but they would need some sort of stimulous to put the peices together. Be it an holocron, a encounter with a powerful rival or nemisis or simply to aim to go on a journey of self discovery. Visiting various places that is strong in the force to enable them to start really feeling.

If I didn't want any force users period in a campiagn, then I have no problems in saying that theriter likely won't be covered in this setting. I have absolutely zero problems with being in or DMing a character with a complete absence of force related material. Though that doesn't inherently mean I won't throw a curveball in there.

For example my character has recently obtained a lightsaber and, being the machanical genus (Gadgetteer), managed to fix it way before the GM's projected timeline. The ship was destoryed recently and my character, compelled by some unknown urge to keep hold of it, has kept a secert that the lightsaber had been removed from the ship prior to the raid. I don't feel a complusion to turn him into a force based character just because he's picked up a glow stick, but having hold of this rare artifiact has added a new element of excitement and attachment to a distant lore.

I was wondering how would you feel if after the game starts and a player comes to you asking about becoming force sensitive.

Would you agree if another player whose character is force sensitive agrees to tutor them using their experiences to help them realise they're also force sensitive?

If no such character is present in the party would them making contact with a Rebel cell that ultimately locates a suitable tutor so they can become a Force Emergent be a good way to handle this?

If that player comes up with their own explanation what criteria would you use to decide whether its actually suitable?

What if they want to become a Dark Jedi or Sith in an Edge game would that be agreeable with you?

I think to become "skilled" in the Force, you'd need a teacher, or lots and lots and lots of time to yourself to study your mysterious new powers. The latter isn't really probable unless you do several year-long breaks in story. I think where your teacher comes from, is a matter of writing and plot development. EU kinda points out that quite a few Jedi were in hiding after Order 66. The players could stumble across one who recognises their potential and helps them become more.

I think working with a player to come up with an explanation is the best way to determine it being suitable. Try to keep things as reasonable as your setting has been up to that point.

In terms of Dark Jedi/Sith? To learn the Sith Code, they'd probably need some sort of teacher, be it a random Dark Jedi that you make up, or a Sith Holocron that teaches its ways to a susceptible mind (I'm doing the latter in my game). But to fall into the lure of the Dark Side... Well, that could just be a result of not having a teacher...

"Ooo. I can make lightning. This feels really good. I'm going to do this a lot.... Hm, when did I start looking so jaundiced?"

I was wondering how would you feel if after the game starts and a player comes to you asking about becoming force sensitive.

I wouldn't have a problem with it. It would actually bother me more if a character had to give up a characteristic boost at chargen in order to be force sensitive. I don't see any evidence in lore that a character needs to suffer some trait just because they are force sensitive, but then I'm in the "Jedi are superior" camp

Common sense and party/GM agreement. If all players and GM agree with anything, just let it be

In my group of gaming players sometimes created rich, high experienced or powerful in the Force characters. I don't have the need to "compensate" or balance the others players unless anyone of them say something like "if he/she is so strong will break the game story". Then I discuss with them and change the concept or level of power from the game or character.

Common sense and "Fun first, rules second" as the GM chapter told us

Edit: I almost forgot it. You always have the Obligation/Duty rule. Adapt it to your games, for example:

If you hero is an super powerful, but untrained, Force user with Force Rating 6 from the beginning, then add +10, +20, +30... to Obligation meaning that someone really powerful from the Empire (an Inquisitor for example) has targeted that player because his/her connection to the Force. Thanks FFG

I was wondering how would you feel if after the game starts and a player comes to you asking about becoming force sensitive.

Would you agree if another player whose character is force sensitive agrees to tutor them using their experiences to help them realise they're also force sensitive?

If no such character is present in the party would them making contact with a Rebel cell that ultimately locates a suitable tutor so they can become a Force Emergent be a good way to handle this?

If that player comes up with their own explanation what criteria would you use to decide whether its actually suitable?

What if they want to become a Dark Jedi or Sith in an Edge game would that be agreeable with you?

I wouldn't require training. I'd just require some plot points for them to truly "discover" their latent potential before being allowed to pay XP for the spec. Likewise I wouldn't require formal training to develop real powers. Sure, being a Jedi/Sith makes it easier to learn powers because you have institutional support, but I would not make it harder than spending XP to learn the power once the Spec was bought into.

It's important to note that FSExile and FSEmergent are not tied to any one creed, organization, etc, whether Forceful or mundane. That pre-Knight Jedi might be Exile or Emergent depending whether she focuses on lightsabers or Force talent. Likewise for Gand findsmen or any new Force sect your player decides to invent on the spot.

I was wondering how would you feel if after the game starts and a player comes to you asking about becoming force sensitive.

It really depends on the tone of the game. I've played darker, rougher games where a darker force user would fit and I've played upstanding Jedi games where having someone "evil" would quickly come to blows. But generally? No real objection - as long as it fits.

Specifically regarding a player who was interested in their character delving into the Sith - who am I to not give them the rope to hang themselves? Seriously if you're playing a Firefly/Han Solo inspired game, you're outlaws and smugglers. Criminals, but not necessarily Evil. An Evil character (which Sith will typically turn into) don't usually fly even with morally gray party-mates. You're going to attract attention from law enforcement and possible abandonment by your compatriots if you step out of their moral comfort zones. That would make a hell of a story.

What if they want to become a Dark Jedi or Sith in an Edge game would that be agreeable with you?

Actually, I'm going to change my answer - I am VERY okay with someone wanting to do this.

Our group, sometime here in the future (probably when F&D comes out) would like to do an The Old Republic campaign, something set during the Sith/Jedi Cold War. When we get around to doing this, the rest of the group are probably going to play your usual Good Guys with Republic leanings (I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing they'll be light-ish side). The character I'd like to do, on the other hand, is a straight up Sith (not the red guys, but a dark-sider). He'll be a gunslinger who keeps his force powers on the down low, while on the run from the Empire for some kind of really heinous infraction.

So, the Republic wants to capture and question him, the Sith want to kill him as a traitor, the other players - if they find out his true dark side nature - will have all sorts of issues with him. In short, pretty much everyone in the universe will want to do him hurt. It should make for some . . . interesting story telling times!