Great suggestion, but it just doesn't jive with reality. People are going to play casually and adapt to their local standard of play. I don't think most people go in thinking "I'm want to break the rules today and I'd better ask permission". They develop habits based upon play with their friends and local groups that they aren't giving thought to and are likely perceived amongst those groups as within the framework of the rules. They most often aren't even going to initially be thinking "I'm taking a shortcut here, I should ask permission" This is why it is sportsmanlike to give a warning (or two) if someone goes to do something out of order, but allow it initially. They likely aren't even cognizant of the issue.

The fact that you have to give players a warning or two in order for them to play by the rules is a little bit of a goofy concept when you think about it isn't it. But I understand it can become habit. So can just playing the rules out right in correctly, and I don't think anyone would allow someone to re-roll a re-roll for instance. But I've seen worse from certain playgroups that just don't know the rules of the game.

In my mind, not being understanding of these situations and taking a hard line on rules obeyance is bad for the community - even if things are on the line in a tournament. I hate to imagine a person who learned to play amongst friends taking the plunge into their first tournament and then having their opponent forbid them actions as described. That will be a lost player for the game for sure.

And if there issues are just plain not knowing the rules of the game? Where do you draw the line? Do you just let that player do pretty much whatever they want in fear of offending them?

You know what I think is worse. A player taking the plunge into his first event, expecting to play a game by the book, only to get taken advantage of by an opponent that plays fast loose with the rules; because that's how it's done at that store.

The rules are there for every player to learn.

There's no reason to abuse an opponents ignorance of the rules, but not following them should not be the default for a playgroup. That type of play only leads to problematic situations.

"Also, you aren't actually performing any steps out of sequence, you're just silently doing them in sequence and then dropping the physical token once you've moved the ships. This isn't a case of trying to, say, move a ship so that you clear space for the previous ship's barrel roll action. The game state at the end of the whole sequence is identical to the one produced by explicitly announcing and following every step of the activation process."

Could I ask that you not perform them silently and just as you finish the move to say I'm going to focus this ship? It's really easy, I'm playing the game with you, just communicate verbally what you are doing.

...

And, again, that's not what it's about. Let's look at three different situations:

1) I move a model, move another model, think about the second model's actions and decide to barrel roll, then spend some time fine-tuning the exact move. Then I realize I forgot to do the first ship's action, and ask to go back and fix my mistake.

2) I move a model straight ahead in open space, move the model next to it with an identical move, and drop a focus token next to each of them without pausing between the steps.

3) I have a block of ships in open space, flip all of their maneuver dials and say "everyone is 5 straight and focus".

...

for me, these cases are actually a good example for not to allow too many shortcuts, at least not as the default way of doing it without agreeing on them beforehand. While for experienced players the differences might be obvious, for a newer player case 2,3 could establish a pattern where he doesn't see the difference to case 1.

So what "usual" shortcuts are and can be depends a bit on who you play with,and what you know about his definitions of "usual". In the end you could end up using more time to agree on certain shortcuts (and/or explaining why this works and that not) than you save by using these.

PS: my biggest problem with this discussion is actually, that the rules of X-Wing are relatively easy and straight-forward compared to other games and the effective savings through shortcuts are actually relative minimal. But hey we need a topic until the next expansion is in our hands.

And then I'll invoke my right as "not a mindless rule worshiper" to put the token there anyway and tell you to shut up and deal with it.

The part you don't seem to get is that you don't have the right to break the rules just because you don't feel they matter, or need to be followed as written.

You pull something that at a tournament and you will not only lose but will most likely be asked to leave by the TO.

There's no reason to abuse an opponents ignorance of the rules, but not following them should not be the default for a playgroup.

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse for breaking them. Sure someone might play fast and lose with the rules because they do it that way in their group.

But if they have the rules pointed out to them, and are asked to follow them. At that point they either do it, or else they should quit the match. Because the rules are the rules, and if you can't play by them, then you shouldn't be playing in a tournament.

It's not like they're even really complex rules here. If the following is too hard to remember, then I question if you even have enough brains to play the game at all...

Move 1 ship.

Take that ships action.

Move your next ship.

I mean really please tell me what so hard about that? Please explain how doing that way is such a massive burden that you should be allowed to break the rules?

Also please tell me what kind of f'ed up mindset you have to have in order to come to the conclusion that following the rules as written = playing to win at all costs.

And then I'll invoke my right as "not a mindless rule worshiper" to put the token there anyway and tell you to shut up and deal with it.

In a game of chess do you move the knight diagonally to take an opponents piece? If you did would you tell your opponent to STFU and deal with it?

How is that any different than breaking the rules of x-wing?

I want a good game as much as the next guy, and will often allow forgotten tokens to be placed in the name of having a better game, but I wouldn't wish to play against anyone with your attitude and blatant disrespect for the rules.

I hold myself to a much higher standard than my opponents. For instance I accidently switched a named and an academy TIE pilot's dials pre-movment and realized only after I revealed the wrong move, rather than forcibly switch the dials or even ask my opponent to allow me to reset the proper moves I just ate my mistake, which involved Mauler Mithel pulling a 1 Hard turn into an asteroid. I made the mistake, and I paid for it.

Sloppy play is forgivable, but I wouldn't wish to play against anyone who just has a blatant disregard for the rules that make the game what it is. You can't just pick and choose which rules to follow of a contest: the rules are there to protect the game from people like you.

EDIT: I just reread your post, and realize now that you were talking about tokens out of sequence presumably when moving pilots of the same Pilot Skill. I'm not certain how much of a time saver it is, but in equal measure you are gaining a small advantage of seeing ahead in time to final placements of your models to judge firing arcs and such before you commit to your actions.

How diddly doodie.

1. Manouvering

I read up to about page four, so apologies if this has already been posted, but it is an excellent explanation of why moving only one ship with a template and following up with everyone else, is basically cheating.

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

I've no problem with what people want to do when indulging in casual play, but bring that sort of thing to a tournament and I'm going to throw a hissy fit like you wouldn't believe.

2. Token Placement

For tournament play, again I'd follow the rules and if I forget to place a token then that's my loss.

For casual play my group and I agree that if we've forgotten to place a token at the right time, then we are restricted to placing focuses.

but I wouldn't wish to play against anyone with your attitude and blatant disrespect for the rules.

Given the stuff he says here and in some other posts... I don't think iPeregrine has a very good grasp of the rules in the first place.

But yeah, if someone were to pull that in a tournament, I don't think there's a TO out there that would let him get away with it.

The rules are extremely clear and simple to follow.

It's not like someone is being taken advantage of by following the rules.

It's not like there is some sort of burden put on you by following the proper sequence.

You avoid possible issues by doing it right the first time, rather then making each turn a judgement call on if this action is going to have an effect or not.

The Tournament Rules say the following...

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent

So it's not up to him to decide if he can put that token down or not, it's up to the other guy to allow him or not. If someone drops a token, and the other person says "you can't do that." If they do it anyway they're clearly breaking the above rule. That is grounds for being removed from the tournament, if they're an ass about it like iPeregrine said he'd be in that post... It's not only breaking that rule, but also breaking the rules of good sportsmanship and conduct, which will pretty much always get you kicked out of a tournament.

but I wouldn't wish to play against anyone with your attitude and blatant disrespect for the rules.

Given the stuff he says here and in some other posts... I don't think iPeregrine has a very good grasp of the rules in the first place.But yeah, if someone were to pull that in a tournament, I don't think there's a TO out there that would let him get away with it.The rules are extremely clear and simple to follow.It's not like someone is being taken advantage of by following the rules.It's not like there is some sort of burden put on you by following the proper sequence.You avoid possible issues by doing it right the first time, rather then making each turn a judgement call on if this action is going to have an effect or not.The Tournament Rules say the following...

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent

So it's not up to him to decide if he can put that token down or not, it's up to the other guy to allow him or not. If someone drops a token, and the other person says "you can't do that." If they do it anyway they're clearly breaking the above rule. That is grounds for being removed from the tournament, if they're an ass about it like iPeregrine said he'd be in that post... It's not only breaking that rule, but also breaking the rules of good sportsmanship and conduct, which will pretty much always get you kicked out of a tournament.

Of course there is the subtle, that consent is allowed subtext that makes it so denying someone is a sign of weakness. If you need to exploit your opponent forgetting actions to win it suggests you'd rather not have a fair game, you'd rather win based on rules lawyering. If you're ok with that, for all means, but tournaments are communities. Alienating that community will quickly lead to unpleasant hostile tournaments all around, which kills the game for the area.

This talk of playing fast and loose with the letter of the rules has me thinking baseball/softball. More specifically it has me thinking of all the "shortcuts" that may be taken to "make the game more fun" yet if you saw such a thing in a major league game someone would likely be fired. A few points:

1. Balls and Strikes: Who hasn't see these rules mangled badly in the issue of fun? You get things like t-ball which just set the ball right where one needs to hit it. You also get times where someone is pitched balls until they put one into play. To a lesser extreme you also have times when the only strikes that count are when the bat is actually swung. There is so much potential for "sloppy" play in baseball's most basic exchange that expecting to learn one way and continue with it into the big leagues is crazy.

2. Infield Fly: A rule many people don't even know. How often have you seen one and NOT seen it called in little league or pee-wee ball?

3. Base Running: Specific rules may vary hear depending on the game but again you see a lot more forgiveness at the earliest levels.

4. Outs: Even this most basic of baseball rules gets thrown out in the interest of "fun" at times.

Now maybe you'll say none of these translate into playing X-Wing but the idea is there. Even if the rules are relaxed in some situation you should not expect them to always be that way.

If you need to exploit your opponent forgetting actions to win it suggests you'd rather not have a fair game, you'd rather win based on rules lawyering.

Wow...

So because I don't given in and let the other guy break the rules and do anything he wants... I'm a rule lawyer who wants to win at all costs and should be shunned from the community.

I mean lets just throw out the rule book completely and let everyone play based on how they feel the game should go and what's fair.

If I'm about to drive your Falcon off the board with Ion's well.. I might hurt your feelings so I better chose another target because making you fly it off might not be fair.

Or if you roll really poorly, I should let you roll again, because well it's only fair right? I don't want to be seen as a mean old rules lawyer who only wants to win at all costs.

Maybe I should let you play with 110 points, because well, that's what makes your list really work the best. I'd be some sort of ogre who wants nothing more then to crush you if I don't let you pay your optimal list right.

Apparently for some people in the X-Wing community have a very distorted concept of fair... to them it means I have let the other person get away with each and very mistake they make. Because we can't expect someone to remember to take their action. Oh no, asking someone to take on that massive burden is just too much to ask and makes me a bad person.

I hope the scorn I feel for this mind set has been properly expressed.

The rules are the rules. They're not open for people to play or not play based on their feelings and opinions.

Fair means both sides are playing by the same ruleset. What some people are suggesting here is the polar opposite of fair, because they're saying they should be allowed to play by a different rule set then everyone else.

Edit: I have no issue with cutting someone some slack if they make a really boneheaded mistake, I cut people slack all the time when I'm playing.

What I object to, what I am heaping scorn on is this idea that if I don't do it, I'm a rule lawyers and poor sport. That somehow it's expected that I have to do it.

Any community in which expecting people to follow the rules as written, and play fair is considered a hostile thing, is a community I want no part of. Because you are not only no longer not playing fair. You're using the 'fly casual' concept as a bludgeon to fix your sloppy playing.

Oo the logical falacies. What a fun thread. Going to give it one shot.

So because I don't given in and let the other guy break the rules and do anything he wants... I'm a rule lawyer who wants to win at all costs and should be shunned from the community.

Straw man. We are not talking about letting the guy do anything he wants. The specific example here was doing something which while not in complete accordance to the rules gives EXACTLY THE SAME RESULT as if the rules had been followed to the letter, but is faster.

Don't know why you keep re-interpreting it. Is it a complicated concept?

I guess EXACTLY is a slippery concept here, and almost exactly is better. There is a margin of error, ships get knocked around and so on. So if the end result is within a small margin the same as if the rules had been followed to the letter is more accurate, but fuzzier.

The rules are the rules. They're not open for people to play or not play based on their feelings and opinions.

Any community in which expecting people to follow the rules as written, and play fair is considered a hostile thing, is a community I want no part of. Because you are not only no longer not playing fair. You're using the 'fly casual' concept as a bludgeon to fix your sloppy playing.

This is a game. The idea is to have fun. If you cannot have fun without slavishly following the rules at all times then fine, I can respect that. I just would not want to play with you. I guess you would not want to play with me either, so that is win/win.

Anyway you are not going to see anyone else's point of view on this (the fact that this thread has gone on for 10 pages shows that).

Can you at least accept that for some people it is ok not to follow the rules exactly as long as the end result is the same? There is no advantage so there is no not playing fair involved.

Fly casual is don't sweat the small stuff. The disagreement about "is this small stuff?". If the end result is the same, to me that is small stuff, so you should let it go. I understand you will very likely never agree to that, so going to leave it there.

Without the rules of the game, it's not really much of a game. Expecting someone else to ignore the rules is folly.

However, this is X-Wing, not SPARTA! What's the point of a game if you aren't having fun? This isn't the Roman Colosseum, where you need to take advantage of any and every little opportunity to slaughter your opponent.

I think there are three problems here:

1. The attitude that a "favor" is a "right." (I forgot this... You HAVE to let me focus. )

2. The attitude that "playing by the rules" means "you can't deal mercy." (You forgot that. Too bad, so sad. )

3. The thinking that people are only in category 1 or 2. (If someone is okay with favors, they hate the rules. If someone is okay with rules, they hate favors.)

I am pretty chill with saying, "Oh, you forgot that focus? No worries this time" because I would hope he would've granted me that favor/mercy in return. I would hate to lose a game because of something so small as planning to use a focus on a ship, but simply forgetting to drop the token.

At the same time, if someone did the same thing and demanded that I let him use that focus, you better believe that I would dig my heels in, and not allow him to use it.

I am 100% for following the rules. At the same time, I feel like this is a board game, and fun should be the goal, at home or at a store.

This is where the "Fly Casual" part comes in.

Example 1

Player 1: Forgot to focus before moving next PS_ ship. Demands that Player 2 let him focus.

Player 2: Says, "Sorry, but no. Rules say (blah)."

Player 1 isn't "Flying Casual" for expecting a favor and being a ****** about it. Player 2 has no incentive to grant mercy, so he wont (and shouldn't).

Example 2

Player 1: Forgot to focus before moving next PS_ ship. Asks if he can still focus, won't happen again.

Player 2: Says, "Nope! Rules state: (blah). YOU made the mistake, YOU have to live with it!"

Player 2 isn't "Flying Casual" NOT because he should have granted the favor, but because he is being a ****** about it. Chances are that this game isn't going to be fun for anyone anymore. Player 1 is going to be watching like a hawk, hoping that Player 2 makes a mistake, and Player 2 is just being a haughty bastard.

Example 3

Player 1: Forgot to focus before moving next PS_ ship. Asks if he can still focus, won't happen again.

I wasn't planning on posting anything after my pic on page... 8..

But this gave me a hilarious visual.

In a game of chess do you move the knight diagonally to take an opponents piece? If you did would you tell your opponent to STFU and deal with it?

I imagine a chess player moving his knight like a bishop, standing up, flipping the other guy off, shouting, "STFU! DEAL WITH IT!" then sitting back down to continue the game.

Thank you for that.

Deleting this post...

Also please tell me what kind of f'ed up mindset you have to have in order to come to the conclusion that following the rules as written = playing to win at all costs.

Just FYI, you are getting dangerously close to the line of RAI v RAW debates which doesn't really work for this discussion. RAW is kind of a loaded term like "social sanctions" used earlier in the discussion. The idea that RAW = playing to win at all costs is a is a pretty typical reaction that has been engendered because of other games lack of clarity on the rules and odd rules conundrums ...cough...GW....cough.

An example of this was in 40K when an artillery piece could shoot out of a building with a roof but couldn't be shot back by other artillery pieces because their shells would hit the same roof; i.e. the the rules covered being shot at by an artillery piece while in a building but not shooting out. RAW advocates say RAW. RAI advocates say that's really silly and stupid and you are taking advantage of a rule that was never meant to be done that way. Ultimately when FAQ dealing with the exact question does come out they do usually tend to fall in line with RAI (at least from my own personal experience).

Thankfully, FFG and the X-Wing rules don't seem to have the same kind of issue. This post was really just a word of caution to not make RAW your banner cry (not saying you are) and to explain while RAW doesn't strictly mean playing to win at all costs it has developed that meaning.

I think there are three problems here:

Thank you! Because you actually get it.

My issue is with this entilement attitude that some people seem to show. iPeregrin even going as far as saying that he'd do it anyway and tell me to STFU if I didn't like it.

Exactly how is that good sportsmanship? Yet according to some people not letting him get away with it makes me a bad person.

I am pretty chill with saying, "Oh, you forgot that focus? No worries this time" because I would hope he would've granted me that favor/mercy in return... At the same time, if someone did the same thing and demanded that I let him use that focus, you better believe that I would dig my heels in, and not allow him to use it.

Exactly it's the attitude that I have an issue with. This idea that somehow it's required that I let someone fix each and every mistake they make, because doing otherwise isn't playing fair.

At the same time, I feel like this is a board game, and fun should be the goal, at home or at a store.

Playing fair in which both people play by the rules as written, unless they otherwise agree to allow some shortcuts. Like dropping focus tokens on ships out of turn... Is the only way you can really know that you'll have a fun game.

Expecting me to allow you to fix your mistakes, and having a fit if I don't, is not going to be conductive for a fun game.

This is where the "Fly Casual" part comes in.

I agree with each and every example you list here. It is the Attitude being expressed here that's the problem. This sense that I have to let you get fix your mistakes, or else I'm a weak player who can't win fairly that I object to so strongly.

There is nothing fair about expecting and worse demanding that the other guy let you fix your mistakes.

RAW is kind of a loaded term like "social sanctions" used earlier in the discussion. The idea that RAW = playing to win at all costs is a is a pretty typical reaction that has been engendered because of other games lack of clarity on the rules and odd rules conundrums ...cough...GW....cough.

Oh I get that. I've played 40k and been on 40k boards. I know how RAW can be used to beat someone up. I understand as I said before, that due to the attitudes of many 40k players there's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to RAW in X-Wing.

But it also seems that some people have gone so far the other direction that they consider someone wanting to follow the proper sequence of activation to be a overtly hostile action.

Oo the logical falacies. What a fun thread. Going to give it one shot.

So because I don't given in and let the other guy break the rules and do anything he wants... I'm a rule lawyer who wants to win at all costs and should be shunned from the community.

Straw man. We are not talking about letting the guy do anything he wants. The specific example here was doing something which while not in complete accordance to the rules gives EXACTLY THE SAME RESULT as if the rules had been followed to the letter, but is faster.

Don't know why you keep re-interpreting it. Is it a complicated concept?

I guess EXACTLY is a slippery concept here, and almost exactly is better. There is a margin of error, ships get knocked around and so on. So if the end result is within a small margin the same as if the rules had been followed to the letter is more accurate, but fuzzier.

The rules are the rules. They're not open for people to play or not play based on their feelings and opinions.

Any community in which expecting people to follow the rules as written, and play fair is considered a hostile thing, is a community I want no part of. Because you are not only no longer not playing fair. You're using the 'fly casual' concept as a bludgeon to fix your sloppy playing.

This is a game. The idea is to have fun. If you cannot have fun without slavishly following the rules at all times then fine, I can respect that. I just would not want to play with you. I guess you would not want to play with me either, so that is win/win.

Anyway you are not going to see anyone else's point of view on this (the fact that this thread has gone on for 10 pages shows that).

Can you at least accept that for some people it is ok not to follow the rules exactly as long as the end result is the same? There is no advantage so there is no not playing fair involved.

Fly casual is don't sweat the small stuff. The disagreement about "is this small stuff?". If the end result is the same, to me that is small stuff, so you should let it go. I understand you will very likely never agree to that, so going to leave it there.

Please don't just give a drive by comment.

I by your definition am one of the players you would avoid and it's a win/win. I refuse to believe we can't come to terms on this issue other then avoiding each other. I do not want to force you to fit in a box designed by myself. I think there is room here to grow the community's understanding of each side. I'm willing to move towards the center if you are. In my earlier description I made the stomp my foot and take a stand position when the player failed to assign an action to his ship. I will now, not wait until the rules infraction is over but interrupt the mistake before it happens and point out my opponent he is skipping his action for the ship. Although I will not do that every time durning the match but once as a friendly reminder of the rules. If the speed of play is your primary reason for doing this move all ships then place actions, here is the middle ground. Move all you ships leaving the tokens off until the end. However as you finish the movement for each ship verbally indicate the action you want to assign to the ship and once all your ships a placed get the tokens on the board. The casual crowd should be ok with this as they still get to move all the ships without worrying about putting tokens on the table. I'm satisfied that you have recognized the turn order and indicated your actions at the proper time.

So, my casual X-Wingers does the the solution seem to work for you? Or are we so far apart we need to divorce the community and fight for custody over the tournaments?

Oo the logical falacies. What a fun thread. Going to give it one shot.

So because I don't given in and let the other guy break the rules and do anything he wants... I'm a rule lawyer who wants to win at all costs and should be shunned from the community.

Straw man. We are not talking about letting the guy do anything he wants. The specific example here was doing something which while not in complete accordance to the rules gives EXACTLY THE SAME RESULT as if the rules had been followed to the letter, but is faster.

Don't know why you keep re-interpreting it. Is it a complicated concept?

I guess EXACTLY is a slippery concept here, and almost exactly is better. There is a margin of error, ships get knocked around and so on. So if the end result is within a small margin the same as if the rules had been followed to the letter is more accurate, but fuzzier.

The rules are the rules. They're not open for people to play or not play based on their feelings and opinions.

Any community in which expecting people to follow the rules as written, and play fair is considered a hostile thing, is a community I want no part of. Because you are not only no longer not playing fair. You're using the 'fly casual' concept as a bludgeon to fix your sloppy playing.

This is a game. The idea is to have fun. If you cannot have fun without slavishly following the rules at all times then fine, I can respect that. I just would not want to play with you. I guess you would not want to play with me either, so that is win/win.

Anyway you are not going to see anyone else's point of view on this (the fact that this thread has gone on for 10 pages shows that).

Can you at least accept that for some people it is ok not to follow the rules exactly as long as the end result is the same? There is no advantage so there is no not playing fair involved.

Fly casual is don't sweat the small stuff. The disagreement about "is this small stuff?". If the end result is the same, to me that is small stuff, so you should let it go. I understand you will very likely never agree to that, so going to leave it there.

Please don't just give a drive by comment.

I by your definition am one of the players you would avoid and it's a win/win. I refuse to believe we can't come to terms on this issue other then avoiding each other. I do not want to force you to fit in a box designed by myself. I think there is room here to grow the community's understanding of each side. I'm willing to move towards the center if you are. In my earlier description I made the stomp my foot and take a stand position when the player failed to assign an action to his ship. I will now, not wait until the rules infraction is over but interrupt the mistake before it happens and point out my opponent he is skipping his action for the ship. Although I will not do that every time durning the match but once as a friendly reminder of the rules. If the speed of play is your primary reason for doing this move all ships then place actions, here is the middle ground. Move all you ships leaving the tokens off until the end. However as you finish the movement for each ship verbally indicate the action you want to assign to the ship and once all your ships a placed get the tokens on the board. The casual crowd should be ok with this as they still get to move all the ships without worrying about putting tokens on the table. I'm satisfied that you have recognized the turn order and indicated your actions at the proper time.

So, my casual X-Wingers does the the solution seem to work for you? Or are we so far apart we need to divorce the community and fight for custody over the tournaments?

Just changing up the order can really save a lot of heartache and confusion. At the store championship I was playing in instead of waiting until I moved everything I told my opponent that I'm focusing with all my B-Wings with all of my B-Wings before I moved them and asked him if this was OK. Everyone said yes, there was no dispute, game got a little faster which was important in 60 min games (to both our benefit because it takes some time to burn through 3 B-Wings).

Oo the logical falacies. What a fun thread. Going to give it one shot.

So because I don't given in and let the other guy break the rules and do anything he wants... I'm a rule lawyer who wants to win at all costs and should be shunned from the community.

Straw man. We are not talking about letting the guy do anything he wants. The specific example here was doing something which while not in complete accordance to the rules gives EXACTLY THE SAME RESULT as if the rules had been followed to the letter, but is faster.

Don't know why you keep re-interpreting it. Is it a complicated concept?

I guess EXACTLY is a slippery concept here, and almost exactly is better. There is a margin of error, ships get knocked around and so on. So if the end result is within a small margin the same as if the rules had been followed to the letter is more accurate, but fuzzier.

The rules are the rules. They're not open for people to play or not play based on their feelings and opinions.

Any community in which expecting people to follow the rules as written, and play fair is considered a hostile thing, is a community I want no part of. Because you are not only no longer not playing fair. You're using the 'fly casual' concept as a bludgeon to fix your sloppy playing.

This is a game. The idea is to have fun. If you cannot have fun without slavishly following the rules at all times then fine, I can respect that. I just would not want to play with you. I guess you would not want to play with me either, so that is win/win.

Anyway you are not going to see anyone else's point of view on this (the fact that this thread has gone on for 10 pages shows that).

Can you at least accept that for some people it is ok not to follow the rules exactly as long as the end result is the same? There is no advantage so there is no not playing fair involved.

Fly casual is don't sweat the small stuff. The disagreement about "is this small stuff?". If the end result is the same, to me that is small stuff, so you should let it go. I understand you will very likely never agree to that, so going to leave it there.

Please don't just give a drive by comment.

I by your definition am one of the players you would avoid and it's a win/win. I refuse to believe we can't come to terms on this issue other then avoiding each other. I do not want to force you to fit in a box designed by myself. I think there is room here to grow the community's understanding of each side. I'm willing to move towards the center if you are. In my earlier description I made the stomp my foot and take a stand position when the player failed to assign an action to his ship. I will now, not wait until the rules infraction is over but interrupt the mistake before it happens and point out my opponent he is skipping his action for the ship. Although I will not do that every time durning the match but once as a friendly reminder of the rules. If the speed of play is your primary reason for doing this move all ships then place actions, here is the middle ground. Move all you ships leaving the tokens off until the end. However as you finish the movement for each ship verbally indicate the action you want to assign to the ship and once all your ships a placed get the tokens on the board. The casual crowd should be ok with this as they still get to move all the ships without worrying about putting tokens on the table. I'm satisfied that you have recognized the turn order and indicated your actions at the proper time.

So, my casual X-Wingers does the the solution seem to work for you? Or are we so far apart we need to divorce the community and fight for custody over the tournaments?

Just changing up the order can really save a lot of heartache and confusion. At the store championship I was playing in instead of waiting until I moved everything I told my opponent that I'm focusing with all my B-Wings with all of my B-Wings before I moved them and asked him if this was OK. Everyone said yes, there was no dispute, game got a little faster which was important in 60 min games (to both our benefit because it takes some time to burn through 3 B-Wings).

I know I'm going to be called a hypocrite but I see that as less of an issue then moving (saying nothing) then placing the tokens. Here you are putting yourself at a slight disadvantage by predetermining your actions before the movement. See where a ship sits after it's movement is information you should have when deciding your action. As such if you made the deceleration of your intention and once the ship was in place ( with out moving the next ship) and you decided at that point another action would be better. I would not hold your feet to the fire on the pre-action you declared as you are in the proper moment to declare that action. If you moved another ship and tried to go back and change you verbal action, all bets are off.

Isn't there room to just try to be kind human beings? If it's going to make a difference in a match I'll definitely insist on rules, but I also don't want to win just because somebody missed something. I like what Osoroshii says about trying to point stuff out, which I usually do. There are definitely times when the monomaniacal focus on winning can ruin the experience though.

My weirdest match was with a guy, (and the next time I saw him he made a point of being friendly which was much appreciated, but I really don't want to play with him again), who said my ships bumped when I was really careful about placement and saw that they didn't. I'm not really sure if he just said that or maybe the model rocked forward somehow after I let go of it, but I had paid really close attention since it was a swarm banking maneuver. He even agreed that with the movements I had done and the initial placement that it absolutely shouldn't have bumped, "but stuff happens when moving," and he forced it to go to a roll off. After that he lost one of his dice and started acting like I'd taken it, which got me to accidentally flip the wrong dial while I was looking for it, since that made me wonder if he was also going to claim I was slow-playing him or something, which he then latched onto as well. So I spent the rest of the game handing him every single dial for his inspection and when he pulled a maneuver that looked like it should have hit an asteroid I didn't feel like I could call him on it since it would just appear like retribution on my part. He ended up winning and I asked him if he actually thought I was trying to put one over on him, which was kind of insulting, and he just said "well you could have picked up any dial you wanted." I'm still not sure if he genuinely thought there was something going on or was just trying to mess with me and throw me off.

In a later game I made a silly mistake and forgot that my Howlrfunner was at ps0 froma crit so had swarmed another tie, which should have made him 0 as well. That player pointed it out and, aside from it being funny, I appreciated it, since it just wasn't something I'd thought about before. So my plea would be to try to educate, if the other player misses something help them out so you can both have fun, and just make fun the point of it? Most of the time, if you approach the other player as someone who's also playing a game and trying to have a good time rather than an enemy or potential thief, stealing your professional x-wing playing livelihood, you'll get a positive response. That still lets you tell them, kindly, that you think something is wrong and not just let them do whatever. It's not so much about the what, but the mindset you bring to it.

Can you at least accept that for some people it is ok not to follow the rules exactly as long as the end result is the same? There is no advantage so there is no not playing fair involved.

Yes I can. In fact that's how I normally play with my friends. It' sloppy and I tend to not do it myself, but I let him get away with it more often then not. In your example above, about the 3 B-Wings... I'd agree to letting you say you're going to focus and then move. Wouldn't bother me a bit.

But and I just don't know if I can stress this point enough, because it seems to keep getting missed.

That is not the way people should play by default. They should not expect everyone to agree to play like that. They should however be willing to play correctly, if someone asks them to do so.

Letting people take shortcuts like that however can lead to a bad situation, and that's why I'm in general against it. Sure letting you focus on ships you moved and forgot, that won't harm anything. But it also can become a habit, and then when you say "Oh I forgot to boost" do you mind? Well now that may be a very different story.

Then what happens is every move starts to become a judgement call on if what ever it is is going to have a big impact or not. I'd rather avoid having to slow the game down to consider that with every ship moved. Opposed to doing it in the correct order not leaving any room for judgment calls.

I want to make the following part crystal clear if I can, because it does speak to the attitude I have issues with. It's attitudes and statements like this that get me upset.

If you need to exploit your opponent forgetting actions to win it suggests you'd rather not have a fair game, you'd rather win based on rules lawyering.

And

And then I'll invoke my right as "not a mindless rule worshiper" to put the token there anyway and tell you to shut up and deal with it.

I challenge anyone to try and claim that either of those statements are examples of good sportsmanship and fair play.

I want to make the following part crystal clear if I can, because it does speak to the attitude I have issues with. It's attitudes and statements like this that get me upset.

If you need to exploit your opponent forgetting actions to win it suggests you'd rather not have a fair game, you'd rather win based on rules lawyering.

And

And then I'll invoke my right as "not a mindless rule worshiper" to put the token there anyway and tell you to shut up and deal with it.

I challenge anyone to try and claim that either of those statements are examples of good sportsmanship and fair play.

No one will defend iPeregrine's statements or behavior. A couple times now I've asked for a reasonable response from him only to get ignored. He is not interested in finding a solution and work together, that's clear by his stance. I also don't see him as a representative of the casual crowd. His is indeed a rare breed. He is only interested in "My way or the highway". All while taking the "put up or shut up" stance calling me the unsportsmanlike, rules lawyer and doing anything to win. Only time he shows up for a post is to toss a molotov cocktail and keep the fight burning.

. And then I'll invoke my right as "not a mindless rule worshiper" to put the token there anyway and tell you to shut up and deal with it.

NOT because of the shortcuts, because of your attitude

agree or disagree "shut up and deal with it" is the wrong response

(The sad point? I AGREE with letting shortcuts THAT DONT AFFECT THE GAME be used....its your attitude that sucks)

The tough part for me to get behind is if your opponent doesn't declare that he is going to move all his ships, then place a focus token on each ship, then you don't know if he just forgot to do the action, or whether he planned it that way, which doesn't seem fair to me.

For the sake of fairness, every player SHOULD declare that each action intention in some way, verbally or physically, at the time moving each ship, or before you move a group.

With that in mind, sometimes I do let players throw on an action. Just depends on the situation, and never more than 1 mistake forgiven. It's easier to forgive new players. But if a known veteran forgets, I probably wouldn't allow it.

I know remembering actions is second nature for most of us, because we play often enough. Isn't it the mark of a good player to remember all actions at all times? It's like learning the basics of any game. It's not your opponent's fault if you forget to take an action, or even, forget to not K turn a ship when you are already stressed. You shouldn't feel bad if your opponent knew better than to do the K turn, letting you turn his dial to put his ship off the map. Once you set the dials down and start revealing, they are locked in. Once you reveal a dial and move another ship, the actions of the previous ship are SET. It's sort of like moving a piece in chess, then saying, wait wait wait , I meant to move THIS piece.

My posts turn into off topic rants sometimes. I tell ya, I get the same way when I try to explain something to my wife. It usually comes off as a lecture.