However I do insist the rules be followed in a competitive environment like a tournament.

I agree, tournaments should be played competitively. We should handle it like MTG tournaments for $50,000 cash prizes do: shortcuts and "casual" action statements are allowed as long as no advantage is gained. And no advantage was gained in your X-Wing example, so you should be prepared to be that guy that nobody wants to play against unless the tournament pairings force them to.

3 things

1-nobody likes someone who takes a game of plastic space ships too seriously, nobody.

2-that line between taking it too seriously and just trying to have a sensible game based off rules has a lot of grey areas.

3- I think this is a symptom of the 1 hour for game time including set up this game has. At my lgs you get an hour to shake hands, read lists, deploy, and play. Thats not a lot of time. Stacking another 15 minutes onto each game would give the players more time to make sure everything is alright. And would let lists that are stronger in the end game do better.

I honestly don't see how putting down a focus token after each ship moves is appreciably slower than doing them after all the ships have moved.

However I do insist the rules be followed in a competitive environment like a tournament.

I agree, tournaments should be played competitively. We should handle it like MTG tournaments for $50,000 cash prizes do: shortcuts and "casual" action statements are allowed as long as no advantage is gained. And no advantage was gained in your X-Wing example, so you should be prepared to be that guy that nobody wants to play against unless the tournament pairings force them to.

iPeregrine you seem to have an understanding of Magic the Gathering, this is how I view the move both then place actions in X-Wing. I have an enchantment that reads " during your upkeep you may place a 1/1 solider token onto the battlefield". I start my turn, I untap and draw a card and put it in my hand. Would you let me go back to my upkeep and place my soldier token?. The question is rhetorical as I know where you stand. This is just an example of how I see the timing of these things.

Would you let me go back to my upkeep and place my soldier token?

No, because that's a case of forgetting to take an action, not using a common shortcut for convenience. The B-wing player didn't forget about their action, they just executed the same sequence in a slightly different order that accomplishes the exact same end result.

The equivalent in MTG would be if I had two copies of the enchantment and just placed both tokens onto the battlefield simultaneously without explicitly putting the abilities on the stack in order, passing priority to my opponent, and then resolving them one at a time (with another priority pass in between). Everyone knows that the correct timing is implied to be happening, we just don't need to be explicit about it unless there's something happening where the details are actually relevant.

(PS: you can use that shortcut just fine in a MTG tournament with a $50,000 cash prize.)

Would you let me go back to my upkeep and place my soldier token?

No, because that's a case of forgetting to take an action

I love that you chose that wording.

I love that you chose that wording.

Because it's accurate. There is no common time-saving shortcut in MTG where you draw your card and then go back and do your upkeep effects, so if you draw a card and then try to claim your token it's because you forgot to do it when you were supposed to. This is completely different from the X-Wing situation, where there IS a common time-saving shortcut where you move multiple ships and then place their tokens.

Hey guys, PMs maybe?

I love that you chose that wording.

Because it's accurate. you forgot to do it when you were supposed to.

Now we can go round and round on the different sides of the fence and I'll toss all the same reasoning you gave me. That fact remains there are 6 steps to moving a ship in X-Wing step 6 being "take an Action" by moving another ship you restart the steps at 1 for that ship. In essence you are drawing a card. So why should I let you go back to step 6 on that other ship? You won't mind if I quote you here " that's a case of forgetting to take an action " so why would I warn you not to do that ( again I'll quote you) "you forgot to do it when you were supposed to".

Now in that same Store Championship I had a player declare his attack from his PS 6 pilot while his PS 7 pilot had a shot. I stopped him before he rolled the attack and reminded him he had a higher pilot skill who should shoot first. In my reminder I informed him I would not point that out again. I know, I know, I'm being too competitive wanting to follow the rules. Funny thing is he never again forgot to fire with that PS 7.

Hey guys, PMs maybe?

Point well taken, I'm sorry. Walking away

And this thread is exactly why I don't like tournaments.

And this thread is exactly why I don't like tournaments.

Yep.

What's the consensus on TIE Swarm movement etiquette? I've faced several in recent tournaments, and without exception, the players feel like they can just set up in perfect formation, move one TIE using the template, and then just pick up the subsequent ships (sometimes just the ones with the same pilot skill, sometimes all the ones that are in the same formation) and move them to maintain the same relative position with the first ship.

I've not brought it up at the table -- I'm pretty casual even in tournament play -- but it kind of bugs me. TIE swarms are a pain in the ass enough as it is, but they require exact positioning. I feel like ignoring the minor discrepancies that creep into ship positioning during play, whether from the inadvertent jostle, the slight variations from template placement, etc., flies (as it were) in the face of what it should take to maintain formation flying, and makes running an effective swarm easier than it should be. It also makes it faster, which is an issue in tournament play.

Apologies if somebody already explicitly addressed this, but moving blocks of TIEs around "in formation", assuming they all went straight isn't really that big of a deal, but if they are touching and they all picked the same turn or bank most definitely is a big deal as it makes them collide.

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/tie-swarm-movement-and-maneuvering-part.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-3.html

Long story short, there are perfectly legal moves that can be made that don't result in collisions when flying in formation, but I can't really tell from the original post if that's what your opponent did or not.

As for the Actions, I don't know. Me personally I'd just still drop them in order as dropping them out of order or all at once is a bad habit to get into when/ if you start playing with ships that are all at a different PS, but I doubt I'd kick up too much of a fuss. It is illegal however, so mileage is going to vary, and as others have said, I can't imagine dropping tokens at once really saves any appreciable amount of time versus dropping them one by one.

Peace!

What's the consensus on TIE Swarm movement etiquette? I've faced several in recent tournaments, and without exception, the players feel like they can just set up in perfect formation, move one TIE using the template, and then just pick up the subsequent ships (sometimes just the ones with the same pilot skill, sometimes all the ones that are in the same formation) and move them to maintain the same relative position with the first ship.

I've not brought it up at the table -- I'm pretty casual even in tournament play -- but it kind of bugs me. TIE swarms are a pain in the ass enough as it is, but they require exact positioning. I feel like ignoring the minor discrepancies that creep into ship positioning during play, whether from the inadvertent jostle, the slight variations from template placement, etc., flies (as it were) in the face of what it should take to maintain formation flying, and makes running an effective swarm easier than it should be. It also makes it faster, which is an issue in tournament play.

Apologies if somebody already explicitly addressed this, but moving blocks of TIEs around "in formation", assuming they all went straight isn't really that big of a deal, but if they are touching and they all picked the same turn or bank most definitely is a big deal as it makes them collide.

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/tie-swarm-movement-and-maneuvering-part.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-3.html

Long story short, there are perfectly legal moves that can be made that don't result in collisions when flying in formation, but I can't really tell from the original post if that's what your opponent did or not.

As for the Actions, I don't know. Me personally I'd just still drop them in order as dropping them out of order or all at once is a bad habit to get into when/ if you start playing with ships that are all at a different PS, but I doubt I'd kick up too much of a fuss. It is illegal however, so mileage is going to vary, and as others have said, I can't imagine dropping tokens at once really saves any appreciable amount of time versus dropping them one by one.

Peace!

They do if they both bank (or strictly speaking, turn), which is what he was talking about.

And this thread is exactly why I don't like tournaments.

Come to our tournaments, we have laughs, joke and generally a good time. Don't let one person represent what a full tournament scene looks like.

What's the consensus on TIE Swarm movement etiquette? I've faced several in recent tournaments, and without exception, the players feel like they can just set up in perfect formation, move one TIE using the template, and then just pick up the subsequent ships (sometimes just the ones with the same pilot skill, sometimes all the ones that are in the same formation) and move them to maintain the same relative position with the first ship.

I've not brought it up at the table -- I'm pretty casual even in tournament play -- but it kind of bugs me. TIE swarms are a pain in the ass enough as it is, but they require exact positioning. I feel like ignoring the minor discrepancies that creep into ship positioning during play, whether from the inadvertent jostle, the slight variations from template placement, etc., flies (as it were) in the face of what it should take to maintain formation flying, and makes running an effective swarm easier than it should be. It also makes it faster, which is an issue in tournament play.

Apologies if somebody already explicitly addressed this, but moving blocks of TIEs around "in formation", assuming they all went straight isn't really that big of a deal, but if they are touching and they all picked the same turn or bank most definitely is a big deal as it makes them collide.

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/tie-swarm-movement-and-maneuvering-part.html

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-3.html

Long story short, there are perfectly legal moves that can be made that don't result in collisions when flying in formation, but I can't really tell from the original post if that's what your opponent did or not.

As for the Actions, I don't know. Me personally I'd just still drop them in order as dropping them out of order or all at once is a bad habit to get into when/ if you start playing with ships that are all at a different PS, but I doubt I'd kick up too much of a fuss. It is illegal however, so mileage is going to vary, and as others have said, I can't imagine dropping tokens at once really saves any appreciable amount of time versus dropping them one by one.

Peace!

Two ships that take the exact same manuever and were touching the time before do not count as colliding. There was a ruling on this. There is no overlap at any time(when done perfectly.) Touching does not mean colliding, only creating an overlap.

Sure they do, man. They overlap. Check out the links. I took pics even!

And this thread is exactly why I don't like tournaments.

This isn't what X-Wing tournaments are like though. The vast majority anyway.

for me it's rather simple

since talking to your opponent isn't forbidden, you can discuss most shortcuts/variations etc when they come up (either because you or the other one want to employ them), if you can't agree on using the specific instance, you fall back to the rules.

And if that written rule states you have to stand on one foot during the game and do 50 push-ups on loosing a ship, then ..well.. you do it.

not every shortcut/variation is the self-evident way to go, so be prepared if people disagree.

that this naturally leads to a trend towards a more strict rule interpretation in tournaments isn't that surprising.

Besides, if one would intend to play at a tournament, preparing oneself to play to a strict rule-set seems to be a good idea, even if in some instances one can agree on some abbreviations.

From Tournament rules ...

Missed Opportunities

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

So ... While it is accurate that actions take place in proper order, opponent CAN consent it to happen ... legally. So it's up to you. "Fly Casual" is allowed ;-)

Also with swarm movement ... Have you watched any of the National or World championship videos???

It doesn't get more official than that and swarm movement was constantly used. Obviously they didn't do banks ... Good swarm players know how formation movements happen. These are timed events.

I play swarms quite often, I measure each move with the template for each ship every time. There are instances where you will not maintain formation, even with taking the same maneuver. Each ship needs to be moved independently, just as detailed in the rules.

What's the consensus on TIE Swarm movement etiquette? I've faced several in recent tournaments, and without exception, the players feel like they can just set up in perfect formation, move one TIE using the template, and then just pick up the subsequent ships (sometimes just the ones with the same pilot skill, sometimes all the ones that are in the same formation) and move them to maintain the same relative position with the first ship.

I've not brought it up at the table -- I'm pretty casual even in tournament play -- but it kind of bugs me. TIE swarms are a pain in the ass enough as it is, but they require exact positioning. I feel like ignoring the minor discrepancies that creep into ship positioning during play, whether from the inadvertent jostle, the slight variations from template placement, etc., flies (as it were) in the face of what it should take to maintain formation flying, and makes running an effective swarm easier than it should be. It also makes it faster, which is an issue in tournament play.

Apologies if somebody already explicitly addressed this, but moving blocks of TIEs around "in formation", assuming they all went straight isn't really that big of a deal, but if they are touching and they all picked the same turn or bank most definitely is a big deal as it makes them collide.

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/tie-swarm-movement-and-maneuvering-part.html http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-3.html

Long story short, there are perfectly legal moves that can be made that don't result in collisions when flying in formation, but I can't really tell from the original post if that's what your opponent did or not.

As for the Actions, I don't know. Me personally I'd just still drop them in order as dropping them out of order or all at once is a bad habit to get into when/ if you start playing with ships that are all at a different PS, but I doubt I'd kick up too much of a fuss. It is illegal however, so mileage is going to vary, and as others have said, I can't imagine dropping tokens at once really saves any appreciable amount of time versus dropping them one by one.

Peace!

Two ships that take the exact same manuever and were touching the time before do not count as colliding. There was a ruling on this. There is no overlap at any time(when done perfectly.) Touching does not mean colliding, only creating an overlap.

Sure they do, man. They overlap. Check out the links. I took pics even!

Turn sharp your fist turn and fly along the edge to make the tie-player bank a bit

It breaks up the formation and then you attack:)

ok, I realize Im WAY late into this....and just starting in the game to add to my iggnorance

I didnt realize till last night (watching YouTube) that turns affected swarm positions (yes that new)

I would have let him move the block without even thinking

TODAY however.....

straight moves? sure...move the block....tell me you are using focus avoid...whatever....and we move on

ANYTHING but a straight ahead move? You are going to use the template

not trying to be an jerk, but I have been screwed on other games (played 40K, WFB, Warmachines, Hordes, etc for YEARS) by ppl "stretching the movement"....measuring from the front....then placing the back of the base instead of the front

a simple mistake? sure...I'll let you drop a token a lil late.....if you forget something....unless its an OBVIOUS reaction to something i did? Im likely to let you go ahead

at least once...maybe a couple...but then you get warned...and then I stop being nice

Courtesy in a tournament is not a requirement, its a gift...dont abuse it

Except this isn't a case of "abide by the rules", it's a case of "play exactly by the strictest possible interpretation of the rules even though it doesn't actually make any difference in what happens".

No, unless you have some other, very odd definition of the term rules . Following the rules is following the rules.

The rules are quite simple and clear in this case. All that is expected is for people to abide by them. The fact that playing a bit sloppy doesn't change the outcome simply doesn't matter. The idea that you can break the rules if it doesn't matter is a classic slippery slope. Because now you're going to get into debates over if the choice actually effects the game or not...

That's the whole point of the rules, so everyone is playing the same way.

But hey if you live in a world in which expecting people to play by the rules is somehow unfair... Then feel free to keep playing how you are.