I've seen this several times and not even just in swarms. Sometimes it's just players being lazy.

Most recently I've played a few games (in tournaments) where someone has revealed a maneuver, saw that the ship would bump and then picked it up and moved it by hand in an approximation of the turn until it bumped.

I was flabbergasted! I could not believe it.

Definitely one of my pet peeves in X-wing.

I once had an opponent assume his X Wing bumped my ship, instead of flying passed over it, range 1 into its arc, so he picks up the ship and moves it. At best, it BARELY didnt make it, but I'm fairly certain the 2 Fwd flew passed. Bah, then when I asked him to put the ship back and measure, he continued to nudge the ship until it didn't make it. I mean, once he picked it up, there was no way to accurately measure anymore, but it was quite annyoing as it was clearly a move in his favor. Woulda put his Wedge range 1 of a Tie fighter.

Obviously I let it go, and yes, it did contrubute to my modified win instead of full win.

That all came off a bit meaner than I wanted . Sorry! Just wanted to share and let players know that you really NEED to measure movements and not assume, cuz our eyes can measure wrong. I know I'd feel bad if I did that to my opponent. At LEAST, ask your opponent if it is okay to just move the piece. Both players should be in agreement or you are not playing fair.

I totally understand Osoroshii, and also understand Bilisknir.

The last tournament one guy had Wedge with Swarm Tactics. The first time he wanted to use it, he didn't "announce" he was using it until after Wedge had already shot. I told him that in the spirit of good sportsmanship, I would allow him to use it this time, but from now on, he had to announce it at the start of the combat phase, and I would hold him to the rules from now on. He agreed.

Also he was a kid, probably 14 yrs old and was really nice, so I'd have felt awful if I was a jerk to him.

I think we owe it to ourselves and to each other to be good sports, and when someone makes a simple mistake that doesn't really have an impact on the game we can at LEAST offer them a warning the FIRST time. Even in a tournament.

Technically, this is not an optional thing. He MUST use ST if there is a ship within R1 of Wedge. This is also true for if the only ship in range is Luke w/ VI - Wedge brings his skill down from 10 to 9. Or if Wedge gets the injured pilot crit and is treated as PS0 - he must swarm that to someone within R1.

I'll repeat the key parts from my post.

Both players need to be in agreement before you do anything questionable.

For example, when I fly swarms, I set up my dials in the current formation, instead of on the cards or directly next to the ships. I always ask if this is okay, as it is not impossible for me to just pick up a different dial for a ship when I know I've messed up. And sometimes it DOES matter, like bank maneuvers and weird hard turn maneuvers that combine 1 and 3 speeds. Etc.

I'm a TIE Swarm player, and I move all of my ships with templates and would expect my opponents to do so. Similarly for best play I would expect my opponents to resolve one ship at a time, to declare their actions and so on, before moving forward. It's what I do with my ships and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that my opponents do so as well.

I let it slide on occasion because I know this attention to detail and procedure can get grating, but in a tournament play I am often confirming things with my opponent because it is competitive.

I am forgiving for new players when they issue their dials and inadvertently go the wrong direction- this game does take some understanding to succeed with- but if they take Bobba fett on the table I do not let them get away with this since it DOES matter for his pilot ability.

His first move was the rookie forward 3 and then his two daggers forward 3 one right after the other. After completing the moves for the daggers he places a focus next to each of them. At this point I told him he can't have a focus for the first dagger he moved

And this is poor sportsmanship. Your opponent was clearly just waiting to place the focus tokens until after the models were moved, to avoid having to go back and forth between the table and the token pile. Whether or not they explicitly declared "focus" before moving the next ship that's the action they had chosen and they gained no advantage by waiting to place the tokens (since, as you said, they moved one right after the other, without measuring/checking arcs/etc). That's a clear time saving measure, whether or not it is technically legal. You're the cop giving a ticket for going 1mph over the speed limit. Technically you're right, but you shouldn't be surprised if nobody wants to play with you unless the tournaments pairings force them to.

And this is poor sportsmanship.

Expecting people to abide by the rules is never poor sportsmanship. Exploiting loopholes is, but that's not what's going on here. He expected people to abide by the timing rules as they're written and he has every right to do so. Especially in a tournament setting, where the rules should be followed as written.

If he refused to let the guy put that focus down after pointing out the mistake, then that would enter the realm of poor sportsmanship, because you're now using the rules to gain an advantage over someone.

I find this to be 100% beneficial to the person playing the swarm. It saves all of the time, making it good manners, not bad as a competently played swarm done template by template will almost always mean a modified win for the swarms opponent at best, hampering their further tournament play.

His first move was the rookie forward 3 and then his two daggers forward 3 one right after the other. After completing the moves for the daggers he places a focus next to each of them. At this point I told him he can't have a focus for the first dagger he moved

And this is poor sportsmanship. Your opponent was clearly just waiting to place the focus tokens until after the models were moved, to avoid having to go back and forth between the table and the token pile. Whether or not they explicitly declared "focus" before moving the next ship that's the action they had chosen and they gained no advantage by waiting to place the tokens (since, as you said, they moved one right after the other, without measuring/checking arcs/etc). That's a clear time saving measure, whether or not it is technically legal. You're the cop giving a ticket for going 1mph over the speed limit. Technically you're right, but you shouldn't be surprised if nobody wants to play with you unless the tournaments pairings force them to.

Sportsmanship

1)the character, practice, or skill of a sportsman.

2)sportsmanlike conduct, as fairness, courtesy, being a cheerful loser, etc.

You are missing the part where I still let him have that action "as fairness" warned him it would not happen again if he failed to follow the rules. This is in a tournament setting, not the kitchen table or practice. The player understood what I was expecting of him and followed the rules the rest of the match. When we put prizes out on the table for the winner such as Special Pilot cards, acrylic tokens and a advantage for a regional championship, I would hope everyone follows the rules. If my intention is to focus all my ships, I often will hold the tokens in my hand and drop them as I move each ship. I do this in the interest in saving time however I still move one ship and take the action then move the other.

iPeregrine, if I showed up with a core set and two aces packs at your store championship would you allow me to play with Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax?

When flying swarms I sometimes ask, for the straight maneuvers, if the opponent minds if I do that. I'd thought of it as a courtesy to save them time. Occasionally if we're way out of range and I do a turn where the square formation is preserved, but never with anything that would break it. There have been some really frustrating games on that really slidy paper though that they use at FFG, esp. where it raises up at the edges. In the high level championship videos they seem to do this too. Maybe I won't do this again though, since a couple of odd experiences have made me paranoid. It's weird though, tried to cut people the benefit of the doubt but it doesn't seem to go both ways.

When it comes to moving formations if every ship is taking the same forward maneuver not measuring for each can be excused. If any kind of turn or bank is done then measuring is a must. Banks require different speeds to be smooth but with hard turns there needs to be separation at the start because the bases aren't exactly square.

For Actions as long as you announce a legal action when you make the move I think you should be good waiting to drop token. Now if any measuring is done then actions need to be up to date when that happens. I wouldn't let you move up a line of X-Wings and then declare a TL with one to "ping" the distance for the line which could lead to the others taking different actions.

easy way to fix swarm problems.. each side has a 45 second turn limit... when times up you forfeit your turn... lol

Expecting people to abide by the rules is never poor sportsmanship

Except this isn't a case of "abide by the rules", it's a case of "play exactly by the strictest possible interpretation of the rules even though it doesn't actually make any difference in what happens". It's just like how we say the cop pulling someone over for going 1mph over the speed limit is a {censored}. Is it technically illegal? Yes. Is it a case of caring more about worshiping the rules for the sake of having rules than the actual intent of the rules? Yes.

This is in a tournament setting, not the kitchen table or practice. The player understood what I was expecting of him and followed the rules the rest of the match. When we put prizes out on the table for the winner such as Special Pilot cards, acrylic tokens and a advantage for a regional championship, I would hope everyone follows the rules.

But let's look at how MTG, a game where people are playing for tens of thousands of dollars in cash prizes, handles similar situations. There's a long set of tournament rules explaining precisely how every possible situation is handled, and then there's a statement saying something like "players often use shortcuts that don't technically follow the rules, this is ok as long as the end result is the same". For example, if you want to end your turn you can just say "done" without having to explicitly end each phase of your turn, and unless your opponent decides to do something during one of those phases then the turn just ends.

What we have here is a very similar situation: the player accomplished the exact same end result as doing it exactly according to the rules, but with a bit of a time-saving shortcut. They didn't forget to take an action and then go back to do it a few minutes later, they didn't move and then contemplate their actions to see if they wanted to change the first ship's actions based on where the second ship ended up, and they didn't take any boost/barrel roll actions that might have an effect on movement by other ships. All they did was use the common shortcut of moving a group of ships with similar maneuvers and then dropping the default tokens on them. No advantage was gained, and the only reason to object to it is if you're the kind of person who cares more about the letter of the law than the intent of the law.

iPeregrine, if I showed up with a core set and two aces packs at your store championship would you allow me to play with Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax?

No, because that's gaining a clear advantage that isn't supposed to be allowed. I don't know why you don't see the difference between "I want to do X which is clearly against the rules" and "I want to do X which is clearly legal, but I'm going to be a bit casual about representing X because it's more convenient".

Would you let someone move all their ships, then boost/barrel roll? Of course not, because ship positioning matters when performing those actions. So if you're going to require those actions to be taken as soon as a ship moves, you should require ALL actions to be taken as soon as a ship moves.

I have no problem with actually placing the tokens all at once, but my opponent had better declare what each ship is doing after it moves and before the next one does.

Just to add, if a player is doing something for convenience or simply forgetting, I'd hate to gain an advantage simply because of a situation like that where the end result would have been the same and I held someone to a rule that probably didn't matter.

The Tie swarm depends on the type of move. Straight is not a big deal, but banks and turns? Different story.

So if you're going to require those actions to be taken as soon as a ship moves, you should require ALL actions to be taken as soon as a ship moves.

That doesn't follow at all. Boost and barrel roll have to be done in the correct sequence because otherwise you can create illegal moves that would have been blocked by the correct action timing. Other actions don't. The difference between moving two ships without any pause between them then immediately dropping two focus tokens and moving one, dropping a focus token, then moving the other and placing a token is nonexistent. The only objection would be if they stopped and considered their actions before committing to it, as if they're trying to use the second ship's move to provide information to help their action choices. But doing it all in quick sequence is just a case of "I know I'm doing X, I'm just going to save a bit of time by taking this shortcut".

Expecting people to abide by the rules is never poor sportsmanship

Except this isn't a case of "abide by the rules", it's a case of "play exactly by the strictest possible interpretation of the rules even though it doesn't actually make any difference in what happens". It's just like how we say the cop pulling someone over for going 1mph over the speed limit is a {censored}. Is it technically illegal? Yes. Is it a case of caring more about worshiping the rules for the sake of having rules than the actual intent of the rules? Yes.

This is in a tournament setting, not the kitchen table or practice. The player understood what I was expecting of him and followed the rules the rest of the match. When we put prizes out on the table for the winner such as Special Pilot cards, acrylic tokens and a advantage for a regional championship, I would hope everyone follows the rules.

But let's look at how MTG, a game where people are playing for tens of thousands of dollars in cash prizes, handles similar situations. There's a long set of tournament rules explaining precisely how every possible situation is handled, and then there's a statement saying something like "players often use shortcuts that don't technically follow the rules, this is ok as long as the end result is the same". For example, if you want to end your turn you can just say "done" without having to explicitly end each phase of your turn, and unless your opponent decides to do something during one of those phases then the turn just ends.

What we have here is a very similar situation: the player accomplished the exact same end result as doing it exactly according to the rules, but with a bit of a time-saving shortcut. They didn't forget to take an action and then go back to do it a few minutes later, they didn't move and then contemplate their actions to see if they wanted to change the first ship's actions based on where the second ship ended up, and they didn't take any boost/barrel roll actions that might have an effect on movement by other ships. All they did was use the common shortcut of moving a group of ships with similar maneuvers and then dropping the default tokens on them. No advantage was gained, and the only reason to object to it is if you're the kind of person who cares more about the letter of the law than the intent of the law.

iPeregrine, if I showed up with a core set and two aces packs at your store championship would you allow me to play with Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax?

No, because that's gaining a clear advantage that isn't supposed to be allowed. I don't know why you don't see the difference between "I want to do X which is clearly against the rules" and "I want to do X which is clearly legal, but I'm going to be a bit casual about representing X because it's more convenient".

Let's review, you may have never read this, it might help

The Game Round

1. planning phase: Each player secretly plans

his ships’ maneuvers by assigning them facedown maneuver dials.

2. activation phase: Each ship moves and performs one action. In ascending order

of pilot skill, reveal each ship’s maneuver dial, execute the chosen maneuver, and then the ship may perform one action.

3. combat phase: Each ship may perform one attack. In descending order of pilot skill, each ship can attack one enemy ship that is inside its firing arc and within range.

4. end phase: Players remove unused action tokens from their ships (except target locks) and resolve any “End Phase” abilities on cards.

Action Phase Overview

1. Reveal Dial

2. Set Template

3. Execute Maneuver

4. Check Pilot Stress

5. Clean Up

6. Perform Action

So this seems clear to me. It also addresses the original post question. These be the rules I know for movement and action. I believe I understand the intent of the rule but I may be wrong. Steps one thru six in that order! Not 1 to 3 jump back to 1 then to 5 back to 4 and finally 6 and 6 again. This is the intent? So your unsportsmanlike decision to not let me Play my aces is based on unfair advantage why can you not buy them as well, maybe there's a rule for that too.

Would you let someone move all their ships, then boost/barrel roll? Of course not, because ship positioning matters when performing those actions. So if you're going to require those actions to be taken as soon as a ship moves, you should require ALL actions to be taken as soon as a ship moves.

I have no problem with actually placing the tokens all at once, but my opponent had better declare what each ship is doing after it moves and before the next one does.

Exactly!! I would give this post 10 likes if I could. That is all I'm asking for just tell me the action each one is taking as you move it.

Steps one thru six in that order! Not 1 to 3 jump back to 1 then to 5 back to 4 and finally 6 and 6 again.

Sigh. Once again, the actions are happening in that order. Nobody is proposing a special rule change where you can move other ships in the middle of a ship's activation sequence. What we're talking about is a case of following those six steps in the intended sequence, but placing the tokens out of sequence as a shortcut to make the game go a bit faster.

Here's another example: let's say I have a block of four TIEs, would you allow me to declare "everyone focuses", move them all, and then place the tokens? Assume that there's no bumping or other loss of actions to worry about. When you answer, keep in mind that this is illegal according to the strictest interpretation of the rules, since I'm doing step 6 for multiple ships out of sequence.

So your unsportsmanlike decision to not let me Play my aces is based on unfair advantage why can you not buy them as well, maybe there's a rule for that too.

I did buy my aces expansion, but that's not the point. FFG has specifically said that the new cards in that expansion are not legal for tournaments yet, so you are asking to do something which is not permitted. Your "out of order" action example is completely different, because it's just a shortcut for placing bits of cardboard on the table that accomplishes the exact same end result as following the strictest interpretation of the rules.

Steps one thru six in that order! Not 1 to 3 jump back to 1 then to 5 back to 4 and finally 6 and 6 again.

Sigh. Once again, the actions are happening in that order. Nobody is proposing a special rule change where you can move other ships in the middle of a ship's activation sequence. What we're talking about is a case of following those six steps in the intended sequence, but placing the tokens out of sequence as a shortcut to make the game go a bit faster.

Here's another example: let's say I have a block of four TIEs, would you allow me to declare "everyone focuses", move them all, and then place the tokens? Assume that there's no bumping or other loss of actions to worry about. When you answer, keep in mind that this is illegal according to the strictest interpretation of the rules, since I'm doing step 6 for multiple ships out of sequence.

So your unsportsmanlike decision to not let me Play my aces is based on unfair advantage why can you not buy them as well, maybe there's a rule for that too.

I did buy my aces expansion, but that's not the point. FFG has specifically said that the new cards in that expansion are not legal for tournaments yet, so you are asking to do something which is not permitted. Your "out of order" action example is completely different, because it's just a shortcut for placing bits of cardboard on the table that accomplishes the exact same end result as following the strictest interpretation of the rules.

And if the player said the action as he moved his ship, before moving the other I'd be ok with that. Moving both and then going back to declare the action is what I'm talking about. It's not that the tokens were placed simultaneously by each ship, it is that no indication of an action was taken after he moved his first ship. Hence he skip step 6 and moved to step 1 of the next ship. Maybe I'm not being clear in my explanation of how it happened.

Wow. This thread sure went plaid.

Rule # 1: don't be a jerk.

You should normally be able to tell when someone is trying to game you or pull something. If they aren't gaining an advantage then it shouldn't be an issue.

If they are clearly gaining an advantage then I would feel within my right to tactfully not allow them to be able to do something because of the gained advantage.

Typically most things can be handled as teaching moments. It's really easy to stop a game for 1 minute and show someone how the mechanics of side by side banking with the same speed works (or doesn't work). After you show them it should be obvious.

Be nice. Have fun. Teach when the moments arise.

Have a nice day!

And if the player said the action as he moved his ship, before moving the other I'd be ok with that.

And the point is that the difference between clearly announcing it and just going move-move-tokens is nonexistent. There's only a difference if the player is stopping to consider their actions and trying to use information that shouldn't be available, not just executing a pre-planned sequence as efficiently as possible. You might like to have that explicit statement, but you're the cop pulling people over for going 1mph over the speed limit. You're technically correct, but you're imposing a ridiculous "rules for the sake of rules" policy that accomplishes absolutely nothing but annoying people.

For the few times that I have flown the swarm:

I leave enough space so that the ships won't bump if they perform a bank turn.

If the ships won't be barrel rolling etc, I will measure the first few and then move the remainder after checking with my opponent that they are happy for me to do so.

Obviously once ships start bumping, this approach is no longer valid and I return to normal measuring.

In regards to actions, I will usually simply say that all ships are performing a focus action, or specify which ones are different, move all of them and then drop the tokens down to save time for myself and my opponent.

I just make sure it's clear what I'm doing for my opponent before I do it and should they ask me to move each ship individually, I will do so according to the rules.

The best part is if they bank it messes up the sitting positions relative to others. I was told I was taking things to serious when at the Store Championship I played at yesterday when my opponent moved both daggers and went back to focus the first one and I said he couldn't. My understanding is you move and then action. So did the guy also move all and then claimed to give all an action. I would only allow him to take the action on the very last one he picked up ( outside of Using the template for movements).

Dude, you should play me in a Store Championship sometime. You'd get a definite win.

I'd probably have an incredulous look on my face, ask "Are you serious?", and then, when I saw that you were, I'd politely concede the game to you and move on. Life's too short, and I know I wouldn't enjoy a game against someone who took it sooo serious. At the end of the day, it's just a game and it should be fun, tournament or not. Enjoy the win, brother!

Just my two cents.

The title of the thread was swarm etiquette. I believe that good etiquette is not putting your opponent in a position where he has to watch you carefully to make sure you are not breaking the rules under the guise of conveinance. The transgression may not even be intentional, merely resulting from sloppy form. Just play by the rules. Even in casual games, as developing bad habits during casual play can lead to them being used in other situations.

And if the player said the action as he moved his ship, before moving the other I'd be ok with that.

And the point is that the difference between clearly announcing it and just going move-move-tokens is nonexistent. There's only a difference if the player is stopping to consider their actions and trying to use information that shouldn't be available, not just executing a pre-planned sequence as efficiently as possible. You might like to have that explicit statement, but you're the cop pulling people over for going 1mph over the speed limit. You're technically correct, but you're imposing a ridiculous "rules for the sake of rules" policy that accomplishes absolutely nothing but annoying people.

Ok, so I made my point clearly. At this point we will have to agree to disagree. All I ask, if you attend a tournament be prepared to follow the rules as written. I would recommend you follow these same rules in casual play as you could develop bad habits for when you enter the tournament scene. If all you do is casual play, house rule it up. One of the most wonderful things about X-Wing is the simplicity of the rules. Believe it or not I hate being a rule enforcer. However I do insist the rules be followed in a competitive environment like a tournament.