As a swarm player, I tend not to cut the corners but to play devils advocate here:

If you have a problem with your swarm opponent grouping his movements and actions and cutting corners and not following the strictest of rules: How will you feel when your opponent adheres to your strict requirements but this causes him to take longer during the game, not an intentional delay just normal delay for having more ships (though I often find myself with 8 ships ready before my opponent who has 3-4 ships)? This delay in the game could be the difference between you scoring a modified or full win for the round. Just a thought...

I'm sure this will sound kinda harsh but it's not mean to be. If you are unable to follow the rules and it is constantly causing you to get modified wins( and that bothers you), time to research a new squad or tactics. The time restrictions for tournament play tend to push for an offensive squad. Eliminating all the ships from the other player seems to happen more often then not, from my experience as both a player and TO. Bending the rules should never have to happen for the sake of time.

As a swarm player, I tend not to cut the corners but to play devils advocate here:

If you have a problem with your swarm opponent grouping his movements and actions and cutting corners and not following the strictest of rules: How will you feel when your opponent adheres to your strict requirements but this causes him to take longer during the game, not an intentional delay just normal delay for having more ships (though I often find myself with 8 ships ready before my opponent who has 3-4 ships)? This delay in the game could be the difference between you scoring a modified or full win for the round. Just a thought...

I'm sure this will sound kinda harsh but it's not mean to be. If you are unable to follow the rules and it is constantly causing you to get modified wins( and that bothers you), time to research a new squad or tactics. The time restrictions for tournament play tend to push for an offensive squad. Eliminating all the ships from the other player seems to happen more often then not, from my experience as both a player and TO. Bending the rules should never have to happen for the sake of time.

What he's saying is that a Swarm player moving his formation in formation is a convenience for both players...

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Depends on where you are in the game and what the maneuvers and actions being made are.

There's a lot of situation in which moving a swarm as a formation will give you a fairly large advantage and perhaps even end up with ships in the wrong spot. At that point it's not a convenience for both people by any means.

Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

It never dawned on me until now what this could mean. I always took this to mean a player cant distract his oppenent into forgetting to take actions causing "missed opportunities". I now see it can be read both ways as a player who has missed his chance to take an action cant force his "missed opportunity".

It never dawned on me until now what this could mean.

I always thought that was pretty clear.

I can't badger the other guy with "Are you done? Are you done? Are you done?" in the hopes that by doing so he'll miss something because he can't concentrate on what he's doing.

It also means this...

If I have a PS4 ship and you have a PS4 ship, but you have init, so you move first. I can't start moving my ship the moment you finish your move, and then claim you missed your chance to take your action.

It never dawned on me until now what this could mean.

I always thought that was pretty clear.

I can't badger the other guy with "Are you done? Are you done? Are you done?" in the hopes that by doing so he'll miss something because he can't concentrate on what he's doing.

It also means this...

If I have a PS4 ship and you have a PS4 ship, but you have init, so you move first. I can't start moving my ship the moment you finish your move, and then claim you missed your chance to take your action.

But it could also mean if I moved two ships and missed the opportunity to give an action to the first one, I cant force the action.

But it could also mean if I moved two ships and missed the opportunity to give an action to the first one, I cant force the action.

Of course you can't.

This idea that iPeregrine came up with, that somehow moving 2 or more PS X ships at the same time and not declaring actions for them is different then moving some ships and wanting to go back because you forgot an action is complete and utter nonsense, according to the rules.

Either way you moved a ship and didn't take an action for it in the proper activation sequence, how much time has expired is meaningless.

My biggest problem with this shortcut is that it's unnecessary, and does nothing to actually make the game smother or quicker. Moving a ship and dropping a focus token on it may take a second longer then moving 2 ships and dropping focus tokens on both of them. It's not like you'll get a whole extra turn in by doing it.

At a minimum, they can do as you said, and simply state their action after they're done and put the tokens down after the fact.

Moving all your PS X ships at the same time, and then declaring actions is quite clearly covered under the missed opportunities rule, so doing so puts you at the mercy of the other person. It also turns each move into a judgement call, because now both sides have to agree if that action should be allowed or not, which could very likely take much longer to sort out then any time saved.

As a swarm player, I tend not to cut the corners but to play devils advocate here:

If you have a problem with your swarm opponent grouping his movements and actions and cutting corners and not following the strictest of rules: How will you feel when your opponent adheres to your strict requirements but this causes him to take longer during the game, not an intentional delay just normal delay for having more ships (though I often find myself with 8 ships ready before my opponent who has 3-4 ships)? This delay in the game could be the difference between you scoring a modified or full win for the round. Just a thought...

As long as you don't milk the "extra" steps you're being "forced" to take (ie. stalling/delaying) it shouldn't be an issue. The actual time lost "following the rules" shouldn't be too great although I guess if you are so used to doing it one way then adjusting to the "correct" way may be a problem that eats some extra time.

Now based on some of what has been said here a bigger waste of time would be the swarm player arguing that his shortcuts should be allowed. This falls under the idea that it is often faster, and easier, to just do something "the right way" to start with than it is to try a shortcut which may save save time but could also lead to actually taking more time when issues arise. Although you may not see it shortcuts can lead to more time lost down the road if/when those things come back to bite you.

I've made several attempts to find resolve with some members of this discussion. To find a better way to implement the short cut than the way it is currently used. My suggestions have been ignored only to come back with the same "deal with it" responses. It seems trolling this thread instead of talking about a solution is the only thing happening here. I've requested a clarification on these short cuts from FFG. As I get a response from the rules committee on this issue for clarification, I will post it here. Since FFG is the only authority that should be the end of it.

As a swarm player, I tend not to cut the corners but to play devils advocate here:

If you have a problem with your swarm opponent grouping his movements and actions and cutting corners and not following the strictest of rules: How will you feel when your opponent adheres to your strict requirements but this causes him to take longer during the game, not an intentional delay just normal delay for having more ships (though I often find myself with 8 ships ready before my opponent who has 3-4 ships)? This delay in the game could be the difference between you scoring a modified or full win for the round. Just a thought...

I'd be willing to bet less time will be taken by that than by the TIE player arguing "but they started in formation, there's no way they could collide now": once he actually moves them as individuals.

In the tournament rules there is a provision for margin of error. So no short cuts but allowed to keep them lined up properly. I'd take that and be happy

As personal preference, if my opponent flew a swarm and asked if he could take "short cuts" on opening straight moves, I would politely say no. It doesn't matter if he's played a swarm 100 times or 1 time, the movement templates are there for a reason and should be used accordingly.

Not sure if someone mentioned it earlier, but letting someone use shortcuts gives them an advantage in that they don't have to use mental ability to 1) set the template, 2) move the ship, 3) take an action, 4) lather rinse repeat 6 more times. It gives them a moment to relax and not have to think about the game. If I'm playing a swarm player, I want them to go through the motions each and every time because they choose to fly that build and should be bound by flying it accordingly. Over time, it might wear them out mentally, and might give me a slight advantage.

As personal preference, if my opponent flew a swarm and asked if he could take "short cuts" on opening straight moves, I would politely say no. It doesn't matter if he's played a swarm 100 times or 1 time, the movement templates are there for a reason and should be used accordingly.

Not sure if someone mentioned it earlier, but letting someone use shortcuts gives them an advantage in that they don't have to use mental ability to 1) set the template, 2) move the ship, 3) take an action, 4) lather rinse repeat 6 more times. It gives them a moment to relax and not have to think about the game. If I'm playing a swarm player, I want them to go through the motions each and every time because they choose to fly that build and should be bound by flying it accordingly. Over time, it might wear them out mentally, and might give me a slight advantage.

Deltmi, I agree that a player should be prepared to fly the squad they bring. The other side of this argument is going to take offense to the idea that you'll gain an advantage from not allowing short cuts.

Here is one for you. Someone else mentioned this and none of the sticklers to the rules ever addressed it.

When your ship is passing through another ship, how do you handle it? Do you mark the ship in the way with the 1 straight, pick it up off the table, move your ship with the correct template, and then replace the original ship?

Or, do you follow the rules:

Everyone I have ever played with has done the first option. They mark the ship. It's more accurate and feels correct. They do it in sponsored tournaments too.

So I ask, what are the rule stickers doing? Are you walking the walk, or talking the talk? Because if you have ever marked and then moved a ship, you are arguing against your own behavior.

I do the hover move, and always ask if my opponent agrees. But if they wish to spike a piece I let them.

When it comes to a movement template running over another ship I thought the rules state you can take the Ship off the base to measure with the ship returned immediately afterwards to resume play. A "hovering" template may not be as precise as marking a position somewho but you need no wave it over a TIE Fighter standing on three pegs to make the judgment.

Here is one for you. Someone else mentioned this and none of the sticklers to the rules ever addressed it.

When your ship is passing through another ship, how do you handle it? Do you mark the ship in the way with the 1 straight, pick it up off the table, move your ship with the correct template, and then replace the original ship?

Or, do you follow the rules:

To execute a maneuver through another ship, the

player should hold the movement template above the

ships and make his best estimation of where the ship

should end its movement. Then he picks up his ship

and moves it to its final location. Both players must

agree on the ship’s final position and facing.

Everyone I have ever played with has done the first option. They mark the ship. It's more accurate and feels correct. They do it in sponsored tournaments too.

So I ask, what are the rule stickers doing? Are you walking the walk, or talking the talk? Because if you have ever marked and then moved a ship, you are arguing against your own behavior.

I think that is a fair question, I have done both. Although never have I just taken one of my opponents ships and moved it without asking for permission. I have twice had a player say no and I hovered the template and placed it in what we felt was the correct position. The point is not so much as " see he does bend the rules" as it didn't happen with out concent. Most of the argument I've been making is the other player making the assumption it's ok to bend the rules without out even checking first. The problem I have is when the other player bends the rules, I call him on it and now I'm the bad guy. When my opponent said I couldn't mark his ship for movement, I didn't through a fit argu with him. I simply reverted back to the written rule and played on.

The thing is, with a swarm, if they all have the same manoeuvre, particularly with banks, and to a lesser degree turns, they won't all end up in formation after the move, so just moving one and keeping the rest in formation is wrong. Because the inside edge of the manoeuvre template is shorter than the outside edge, it changes the formation of the ship. There is a great three part article on this over at the metal bikini.

Part 1:

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

The thing is, with a swarm, if they all have the same manoeuvre, particularly with banks, and to a lesser degree turns, they won't all end up in formation after the move, so just moving one and keeping the rest in formation is wrong. Because the inside edge of the manoeuvre template is shorter than the outside edge, it changes the formation of the ship. There is a great three part article on this over at the metal bikini.

Part 1:

http://www.themetalbikini.com/2013/02/maneuvering-as-formation-part-1.html

For a bank or a turn, of course I want my opponent to use the template, and it goes for me too. But when moving straight with a swarm in formation, if they all move the same distance, I don't care that he use the template just for one and then move the others accordingly and keep in formation. But I play casual and only against my friends, so I know them and they are not the type to try to gain an edge by puting their ship 1-2 mm front/back/left/right or wherever to gain an advantage. It does save time a little and remove the risk of knocking a ship over while moving another, which is worst in term of might-not-end-up-where-he-belong than just keeping them in formation.

But, if I was in tournament, and a player asked me NICELY to use the template for all my ship, I would do so without arguing because it is the rule and quite frankly, I don't really care, I just want to have fun. I personally, would not force it on my opponent, I don't see the point to argue for something that I find really trivial. We are grown-up playing a game about moving little toy ship around, don't take it too seriously because the joke's on you.

So FFG has blessed us with a definitive answer to this debate from the new FAQ:

"Missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action.

• If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to

the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

These rules are not intended to punish players, or encourage players to

rush through timing windows in order to deny their opponent an opportunity. Players must allow their opponents ample time to perform actions, execute maneuvers, and declare game effects."

So let it be said, move then action not move move action action! " These rules are not intended to punish players" but rather just follow the rule.

So FFG has blessed us with a definitive answer to this debate from the new FAQ:

"Missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action.

• If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to

the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

These rules are not intended to punish players, or encourage players to

rush through timing windows in order to deny their opponent an opportunity. Players must allow their opponents ample time to perform actions, execute maneuvers, and declare game effects."

So let it be said, move then action not move move action action! " These rules are not intended to punish players" but rather just follow the rule.

Yes, they do give you something to fall back on. However, I'm sure there will be plenty of people who forgive their opponents an honest oversight.

As it were, it's a players choice.

I've never seen them not use the dials, although, honestly, I've never looked or had someone look at my dials to see if what was executed matched what was planned.

But yeah, frequently seen them move without using the template to maintain the formation.

That last bit... I'm a die-hard Imp, and that's a no-go. Every ship, every move uses the template for its move. Period. If they don't, call them on it and don't feel a whiff if regret.

So FFG has blessed us with a definitive answer to this debate from the new FAQ:

"Missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action.

• If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to

the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

These rules are not intended to punish players, or encourage players to

rush through timing windows in order to deny their opponent an opportunity. Players must allow their opponents ample time to perform actions, execute maneuvers, and declare game effects."

So let it be said, move then action not move move action action! " These rules are not intended to punish players" but rather just follow the rule.

This was never a rules question. It was a question of player character. The games you will feel best about are the ones where you played perfectly, your opponent played perfectly, and you won, but it was close. If you win because your opponent repeatedly forgets to focus neither player will be as happy with the game. That's the debate. I don't think a single person was arguing that the rules allowed for retroactive actions. But as an opponent, if it's within the same relative Pilot skill I see no reason not to let the player get things done. It saves time to move my two PS6 Tie fighters, then go grab the tokens from the token box while my opponent is moving. I offer the same courtesy to my opponents. Note I call it a courtesy.

I try to remind my opponent to do his/her actions.

As you say. It is no fun winning because the other player forgot.