No one will defend iPeregrine's statements or behavior.

I don't believe they will either. But I thought it was good to point out the attitude that some have.

There's two attitudes, or perhaps one with it taken to an extreme, that I have issue with.

It's the "No one should make me pay for my mistakes" attitude. The extreme case being iPeregrine's STFU and deal statement. But even some of the less aggressive statements still have the same basic attitude.

People trying to claim that the only sporting thing to do, is let someone take an action if they forgot. Or letting them use shortcuts should be the expected and default method of play, and if I don't accept that, I'm being a poor sport and not playing fair. It's this completely misguided concept of what is fair that sets me off. Because it's nothing more then someone trying to claim the moral high-ground as a way to get away with bad play.

Lets take an fairly extreme example...

I'm playing against a HSF list. It's the 3rd round and the guy playing HSF, was hugging the side of the board to avoid the asteroids. We've had one round of ineffective shooting so no real damage done yet.

The guy flying HSF intends to take a 3 left bank to get into the furball but instead sets the dial to a right bank flying right off the edge of the map, costing him the Falcon and half or more of his list. At this point the outcome of the game is pretty easy to see.

Now I would say that it would be nice of me, to let him take the maneuver that he clearly intended on, rather then make him fly the falcon off the edge of the table.

But at the same time, not letting him do so, would not be unfair of me. Making him do the turn he selected would be completely fair. Furthermore doing so would not make me a ass or a poor sport. It's not my fault that he picked the wrong maneuver. Expecting me to let you fix that mistake is poor sportsmanship, demanding that I let you is worse and IMO grounds to have you removed from the tournament.

That person has no right to get upset with me if I don't let him fix that mistake. He screwed up and that's just how things go some times. This isn't a case of me wanting to win at all costs. It's a case of me playing fairly, and by the rules.

Furthermore, if I did let him keep the Falcon and he went on to win the match, and the tournament... was that really a fair outcome? I mean by the rules he shouldn't of won, there's no provision in the rules for letting someone change their dial if both sides agree to it, like there is with a forgotten action.

Not only did he win unfairly... He effectively cheated a whole lot of other people out of a fair tournament, because I let him get away with a pretty major mistake.

No one will defend iPeregrine's statements or behavior.

I don't believe they will either. But I thought it was good to point out the attitude that some have.There's two attitudes, or perhaps one with it taken to an extreme, that I have issue with.It's the "No one should make me pay for my mistakes" attitude. The extreme case being iPeregrine's STFU and deal statement. But even some of the less aggressive statements still have the same basic attitude.People trying to claim that the only sporting thing to do, is let someone take an action if they forgot. Or letting them use shortcuts should be the expected and default method of play, and if I don't accept that, I'm being a poor sport and not playing fair. It's this completely misguided concept of what is fair that sets me off. Because it's nothing more then someone trying to claim the moral high-ground as a way to get away with bad play.Lets take an fairly extreme example...I'm playing against a HSF list. It's the 3rd round and the guy playing HSF, was hugging the side of the board to avoid the asteroids. We've had one round of ineffective shooting so no real damage done yet.The guy flying HSF intends to take a 3 left bank to get into the furball but instead sets the dial to a right bank flying right off the edge of the map, costing him the Falcon and half or more of his list. At this point the outcome of the game is pretty easy to see.Now I would say that it would be nice of me, to let him take the maneuver that he clearly intended on, rather then make him fly the falcon off the edge of the table.But at the same time, not letting him do so, would not be unfair of me. Making him do the turn he selected would be completely fair. Furthermore doing so would not make me a ass or a poor sport. It's not my fault that he picked the wrong maneuver. Expecting me to let you fix that mistake is poor sportsmanship, demanding that I let you is worse and IMO grounds to have you removed from the tournament.That person has no right to get upset with me if I don't let him fix that mistake. He screwed up and that's just how things go some times. This isn't a case of me wanting to win at all costs. It's a case of me playing fairly, and by the rules.Furthermore, if I did let him keep the Falcon and he went on to win the match, and the tournament... was that really a fair outcome? I mean by the rules he shouldn't of won, there's no provision in the rules for letting someone change their dial if both sides agree to it, like there is with a forgotten action.Not only did he win unfairly... He effectively cheated a whole lot of other people out of a fair tournament, because I let him get away with a pretty major mistake.

The oversight of how it effects other people who are not playing in the current game is a great point. Asking two people with the same Fly Casual approach to think of the other players in the room is a tuff sell I think. Worse, would be dictating our view of the rules onto their match. I only use our view of the rules as it obvious not everyone shares that view.

I want to make the following part crystal clear if I can, because it does speak to the attitude I have issues with. It's attitudes and statements like this that get me upset.

If you need to exploit your opponent forgetting actions to win it suggests you'd rather not have a fair game, you'd rather win based on rules lawyering.

And

And then I'll invoke my right as "not a mindless rule worshiper" to put the token there anyway and tell you to shut up and deal with it.

I challenge anyone to try and claim that either of those statements are examples of good sportsmanship and fair play.

No one will defend iPeregrine's statements or behavior. A couple times now I've asked for a reasonable response from him only to get ignored. He is not interested in finding a solution and work together, that's clear by his stance. I also don't see him as a representative of the casual crowd. His is indeed a rare breed. He is only interested in "My way or the highway". All while taking the "put up or shut up" stance calling me the unsportsmanlike, rules lawyer and doing anything to win. Only time he shows up for a post is to toss a molotov cocktail and keep the fight burning.

Well, let's not attack people like this. Probably could have stated something similar without direct naming! I like to follow the rule " only say things on the forums that I would only say to people in real life." Even saying THIS is a little harsh for me

Lets take an fairly extreme example...

I'm playing against a HSF list. It's the 3rd round and the guy playing HSF, was hugging the side of the board to avoid the asteroids. We've had one round of ineffective shooting so no real damage done yet.

The guy flying HSF intends to take a 3 left bank to get into the furball but instead sets the dial to a right bank flying right off the edge of the map, costing him the Falcon and half or more of his list. At this point the outcome of the game is pretty easy to see.

Now I would say that it would be nice of me, to let him take the maneuver that he clearly intended on, rather then make him fly the falcon off the edge of the table.

But at the same time, not letting him do so, would not be unfair of me. Making him do the turn he selected would be completely fair. Furthermore doing so would not make me a ass or a poor sport. It's not my fault that he picked the wrong maneuver. Expecting me to let you fix that mistake is poor sportsmanship, demanding that I let you is worse and IMO grounds to have you removed from the tournament.

That person has no right to get upset with me if I don't let him fix that mistake. He screwed up and that's just how things go some times. This isn't a case of me wanting to win at all costs. It's a case of me playing fairly, and by the rules.

Furthermore, if I did let him keep the Falcon and he went on to win the match, and the tournament... was that really a fair outcome? I mean by the rules he shouldn't of won, there's no provision in the rules for letting someone change their dial if both sides agree to it, like there is with a forgotten action.

Not only did he win unfairly... He effectively cheated a whole lot of other people out of a fair tournament, because I let him get away with a pretty major mistake.

I'd actually go the complete other way on your example. A lot of it has to do with intent. Mistakes like that happen due to a perspective problem with moving ships. Your opponent clearly have every intent to not forfeit the match. You know it and he knows it and its because his eyes got a little discombobulated, he loses the match. Even in a tourney I'd let him turn it around and I wouldn't hold it against him if he won. When you talk about capitalizing on mistakes its clear you mean any and all mistakes. A lot of people consider capitalizing on a "mistake" in games terms to mean taking advantage of a move your opponent did knowingly and didn't see the repercussions of that move. The accidentally flying off the board doesn't really fall into that line of thinking. The actions all at once thing that started this is at once completely different because the person knew what they were doing from the beginning.

No one will defend iPeregrine's statements or behavior.

I don't believe they will either. But I thought it was good to point out the attitude that some have.

There's two attitudes, or perhaps one with it taken to an extreme, that I have issue with.

It's the "No one should make me pay for my mistakes" attitude. The extreme case being iPeregrine's STFU and deal statement. But even some of the less aggressive statements still have the same basic attitude.

People trying to claim that the only sporting thing to do, is let someone take an action if they forgot. Or letting them use shortcuts should be the expected and default method of play, and if I don't accept that, I'm being a poor sport and not playing fair. It's this completely misguided concept of what is fair that sets me off. Because it's nothing more then someone trying to claim the moral high-ground as a way to get away with bad play.

Lets take an fairly extreme example...

I'm playing against a HSF list. It's the 3rd round and the guy playing HSF, was hugging the side of the board to avoid the asteroids. We've had one round of ineffective shooting so no real damage done yet.

The guy flying HSF intends to take a 3 left bank to get into the furball but instead sets the dial to a right bank flying right off the edge of the map, costing him the Falcon and half or more of his list. At this point the outcome of the game is pretty easy to see.

Now I would say that it would be nice of me, to let him take the maneuver that he clearly intended on, rather then make him fly the falcon off the edge of the table.

But at the same time, not letting him do so, would not be unfair of me. Making him do the turn he selected would be completely fair. Furthermore doing so would not make me a ass or a poor sport. It's not my fault that he picked the wrong maneuver. Expecting me to let you fix that mistake is poor sportsmanship, demanding that I let you is worse and IMO grounds to have you removed from the tournament.

That person has no right to get upset with me if I don't let him fix that mistake. He screwed up and that's just how things go some times. This isn't a case of me wanting to win at all costs. It's a case of me playing fairly, and by the rules.

Furthermore, if I did let him keep the Falcon and he went on to win the match, and the tournament... was that really a fair outcome? I mean by the rules he shouldn't of won, there's no provision in the rules for letting someone change their dial if both sides agree to it, like there is with a forgotten action.

Not only did he win unfairly... He effectively cheated a whole lot of other people out of a fair tournament, because I let him get away with a pretty major mistake.

Whoa. Hold on. How on earth did we go from not letting people take actions due to procedural issues and onto letting people change maneuver dials? Those are TOTALLY different. One is a person who has adopted a maybe bad practice that is semi-standard and accepted in many circles as a non-factor, the other is someone just blatantly flying their ship wrong. I know someone said they would let someone do change a dial, but I don't think many people are saying you should or that you would be some kind of jerk if you didn't. Someone flying off the board is definitely not a non-factor.

Great suggestion, but it just doesn't jive with reality. People are going to play casually and adapt to their local standard of play. I don't think most people go in thinking "I'm want to break the rules today and I'd better ask permission". They develop habits based upon play with their friends and local groups that they aren't giving thought to and are likely perceived amongst those groups as within the framework of the rules. They most often aren't even going to initially be thinking "I'm taking a shortcut here, I should ask permission" This is why it is sportsmanlike to give a warning (or two) if someone goes to do something out of order, but allow it initially. They likely aren't even cognizant of the issue.

The fact that you have to give players a warning or two in order for them to play by the rules is a little bit of a goofy concept when you think about it isn't it. But I understand it can become habit. So can just playing the rules out right in correctly, and I don't think anyone would allow someone to re-roll a re-roll for instance. But I've seen worse from certain playgroups that just don't know the rules of the game.

In my mind, not being understanding of these situations and taking a hard line on rules obeyance is bad for the community - even if things are on the line in a tournament. I hate to imagine a person who learned to play amongst friends taking the plunge into their first tournament and then having their opponent forbid them actions as described. That will be a lost player for the game for sure.

And if there issues are just plain not knowing the rules of the game? Where do you draw the line? Do you just let that player do pretty much whatever they want in fear of offending them?

You know what I think is worse. A player taking the plunge into his first event, expecting to play a game by the book, only to get taken advantage of by an opponent that plays fast loose with the rules; because that's how it's done at that store.

The rules are there for every player to learn.

There's no reason to abuse an opponents ignorance of the rules, but not following them should not be the default for a playgroup. That type of play only leads to problematic situations.

I don't know, I guess I don't find it at all goofy. We live in a world where people make mistakes, norms are adopted as a way to speed or ease things, etc. Expecting each and every player to execute the game perfectly in step in accordance with the rules and recognize each and every time they might not be is a bit too idealistic. People aren't perfect and I've never met anyone who didn't miss or misunderstand a rule somewhere. If someone does something that they believe to be either within the rules or "accepted practice" and you penalize them for it without warning, even if correct, you are going to be perceived as the type of person who takes advantage of easily understandable mistakes to gain an advantage - it will be seen as abusing an opponent's ignorance or misunderstanding. I'm not telling you it is right or that this is how it should be, just that this is how the world works and it will be. You aren't going to change the world on the FFG X-Wing forums.

I'm not going to entertain extreme examples or slippery slope fallacies such as people just not knowing how to play the game at all. Every social situation is different and up to you to decide how best to respond. That is how social interaction works and reputations are gained. There are no documented rules on how to be a "good sport" or where to draw the line in every situation.

A few random thoughts. The first time I ever saw a person move a swarm using only a movement template for the first was in a Worlds championship video. The first time I ever saw a person move a group of same PS ships and then pass them all an action was in a Worlds video. I am not saying this makes it the rule, but people will see these things and go "oh, this is allowed practice amongst the best, most experienced players" It often happens that higher levels of play adopt standards for efficiency that become so widely agreed upon as to become the standard of play. That is just what happens. You can make many arguments for why that shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the way it IS. Let's think of another example of this. I almost always see that when Ship A is going to move through Ship B, people mark Ship B's location with the "1" straight maneuver, then execute Ship A's maneuver with the template accurately and then replace Ship B. This is absolutely not what the rules say to do, but it is inarguably more accurate than holding the template above the model and making a best estimate as the rulebook dictates. Should we stop doing this because it is not RAW? Or another example - when Ship A is moving straight and will overlap Ship B, the rulebook says to slide the ship back over the guide keeping it in line with the template. I have very frequently seen people take a straight movement template, place it alongside Ship A, and then slide it forward until it touches Ship B. This is again not what the rules say to do, but it is definitely more accurate than the method presented in them. Should we not allow this?

I'll just add that there seems to be a lot of belief that people are using "fly casual" as a bludgeon to break rules. Aside from iPeregrine, I think everyone is just trying to say "understand that these things happen, make clear that you find it an unwelcome violation, and be forgiving on the first offense". If they continue or break rules and tell you to "deal with it", then by all means have at it.

I know someone said they would let someone do change a dial, but I don't think many people are saying you should or that you would be some kind of jerk if you didn't.

It's been said on this board more then once in the past. That if you 'force' the person to remove the ship when he clearly just had the dial backwards you're a jerk who only wants to win at all costs. I'm not putting words into anyones mouth here. People have come right out and said as much more then once.

I know someone said they would let someone do change a dial, but I don't think many people are saying you should or that you would be some kind of jerk if you didn't.

It's been said on this board more then once in the past. That if you 'force' the person to remove the ship when he clearly just had the dial backwards you're a jerk who only wants to win at all costs. I'm not putting words into anyones mouth here. People have come right out and said as much more then once.

Well, I'm not fully versed on every thread on this board and I doubt many are. Can we just keep this to the issues presented within this thread and not bring more and, in my mind, tremendously different examples into this?

If someone does something that they believe to be either within the rules or "accepted practice" and you penalize them for it without warning, even if correct, you are going to be perceived as the type of person who takes advantage of easily understandable mistakes to gain an advantage - it will be seen as abusing an opponent's ignorance or misunderstanding. I'm not telling you it is right or that this is how it should be, just that this is how the world works and it will be. You aren't going to change the world on the FFG X-Wing forums.

So the rulebook isn't warning enough? I mean it's there, in plain text, available to all. It's not like any of this is hidden information. I have no idea where people get it in their head that the rules aren't expected to be followed in a event. Why using the rules requires some sort of warning is beyond me.

In actuality I think anyone asking for any take back is displaying poor sportsmanship by placing their opponent in an awkward position rather then just accepting you made a mistake and moving on. Games are won and lost on mistakes. Ending in an un-advantageous position is a mistake, selecting the wrong action is a mistake, picking the wrong target is a mistake, ending on an asteroid is a mistake, and forgetting pilot abilities/actions is also a mistake.

The expectation isn't that people won't make mistakes, it's simply that they will happen and a player is going to have to deal with the consequences of them; big or small. I don't see that as unfair as it is meant to be applied to both players in all situations whether the mistake is a tactical error or just plain forgetting to do something.

So people have had a chance to get things off their chest and we've all been exposed to some new perspectives. Since no resolution is possible here (and everything Star Trek taught me about people was a false), why don't we just move on. No good for anyone will come out of continuing this.

It really depends on the situation. Everything in life is a fine line. I've yet to play against someone I didn't like. If they were being mean or insulting, I would definately let them fly a falcon off the table!

Still, I really don't like people that want to win at all costs. And when I say win at all costs, I mean certain people will value winning as more important than allowing an opponent to feel good about themselves and have fun in the game as well. Often those people don't have a personality type that can even understand what I'm talking about, and it's not that their "bad" people, they are just wired differently. This is a game after all. Games are supposed to be primarily about having fun.

Lets look at the fly a falcon off the board example. A "win person" in the final game at worlds would say, "the rules are the rules, this game means too much - it's the finals! The dial is dial, you loose." A fly casual person would say, "it's the intent, that was an obvious mistake, I'll be gracious and allow a redo."

The irony is that If the win person won, his victory would forever be known as "his opponent flew off the board." Whereas if the fly casual guy won, his victory would go down as an epic display of sportsmanship and his prowess would never be questioned. Who would be considered the better player?

As a side note I've experienced this myself. In my 3rd or so game ever I played one of the best players in our area at a tournament. He knew it was my 3rd game and I remember I had a shot of winning but I turned my dial the wrong way. Instead of being able to shoot his wedge I was pointed off the board. It was obvious I had made a mistake but he said "the dial is the dial" and I was actually kind of mad. I approached the game much more casually than that.

However, that experience made me a much better player. I've never made that mistake since. Not once. I also consider that player a friend of mine now. So really it is a judgement call. It all comes down to whether you "get it" or not. You'll never be able to convince someone that doesn't.

If someone does something that they believe to be either within the rules or "accepted practice" and you penalize them for it without warning, even if correct, you are going to be perceived as the type of person who takes advantage of easily understandable mistakes to gain an advantage - it will be seen as abusing an opponent's ignorance or misunderstanding. I'm not telling you it is right or that this is how it should be, just that this is how the world works and it will be. You aren't going to change the world on the FFG X-Wing forums.

So the rulebook isn't warning enough? .

Well, I just typed a page long post on why I don't feel that it is and we should be understanding of people adopting conventions not in the rules, especially when those conventions create an end result that is not different. I won't repeat it again. If you want to bring up the same points again, I suggest you just refer to that post each time for your answer.

If someone does something that they believe to be either within the rules or "accepted practice" and you penalize them for it without warning, even if correct, you are going to be perceived as the type of person who takes advantage of easily understandable mistakes to gain an advantage - it will be seen as abusing an opponent's ignorance or misunderstanding.

And once again... No one is saying you should pounce on someone on their first mistake, that they shouldn't get a friendly warning or anything of the sort. We all agree that they should get at least one warning perhaps more depending on the situation.

But that doesn't mean it's ok to keep using shortcuts when the other person asks you to stop using them. I don't need to justify my reasons for wanting to play the rules as written, the whole point is that they're the default everyone should fall back on.

If someone does something that they believe to be either within the rules or "accepted practice" and you penalize them for it without warning, even if correct, you are going to be perceived as the type of person who takes advantage of easily understandable mistakes to gain an advantage - it will be seen as abusing an opponent's ignorance or misunderstanding. I'm not telling you it is right or that this is how it should be, just that this is how the world works and it will be. You aren't going to change the world on the FFG X-Wing forums.

So the rulebook isn't warning enough? I mean it's there, in plain text, available to all. It's not like any of this is hidden information. I have no idea where people get it in their head that the rules aren't expected to be followed in a event. Why using the rules requires some sort of warning is beyond me.

In actuality I think anyone asking for any take back is displaying poor sportsmanship by placing their opponent in an awkward position rather then just accepting you made a mistake and moving on. Games are won and lost on mistakes. Ending in an un-advantageous position is a mistake, selecting the wrong action is a mistake, picking the wrong target is a mistake, ending on an asteroid is a mistake, and forgetting pilot abilities/actions is also a mistake.

The expectation isn't that people won't make mistakes, it's simply that they will happen and a player is going to have to deal with the consequences of them; big or small. I don't see that as unfair as it is meant to be applied to both players in all situations whether the mistake is a tactical error or just plain forgetting to do something.

I think its just that you differ in your perception of a mistake from the others. Just taking the "I chose the opposite turn by mistake and flew off the board" as an example, some people brought up the idea of beating someone at their best because they want a fair and complete match. To illustrate this just think about how if you managed to beat the reigning world champ, but he accidentally flew a ship off the board people would assume you only won because of a fluke. Another way to think about is people kind of view it as getting a win in a FPS through lag kills.

As stated before, maybe we should let this thread die. The same resolution/lack of resolution keeps occurring.

To illustrate this just think about how if you managed to beat the reigning world champ, but he accidentally flew a ship off the board people would assume you only won because of a fluke.

That's not a fluke, that was a mistake that cost him the game.

You could say it was more that he lost then I beat him. But that's not all the same thing as saying I won by a fluke.

I'll make you a deal, when people stop trying to equate being a better player, with letting people get away with sloppy playing, I'll let it drop.

But as long as people insist that the sporting, and morally superior thing to do, is let someone break the rules because it doesn't really matter, or their intent is clear then I'll keep point out how those people are trying to use "fly casual" as a bludgeon to excuse sloppy play.

A fly casual person would say, "it's the intent, that was an obvious mistake, I'll be gracious and allow a redo."

Having been here when the phrase was first started to be used, I can tell you that no, that's not at all correct. The term was never intended to be used as a way to let someone play poorly and get away with it.

Furthermore... If this did happen, the person who made the mistake, and accepted the redo... Well lets be honest, win or lose no one would ever accept them as the true world champion. They'd always be known as the guy who should of lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0

Oh, wait...

In actuality I think anyone asking for any take back is displaying poor sportsmanship by placing their opponent in an awkward position rather then just accepting you made a mistake and moving on. Games are won and lost on mistakes.

I guess I just don't think that moving all of your ships of same PS and then taking actions unaffected by that movement to be a "mistake". Just a different way of getting to the same end result. Yes, it isn't in the rules, but the guy is probably perfectly aware and capable of doing it the right way. It isn't that he "forgot" something and wanted a take-back. He knew all along he intended to take those actions.

Flying off the board? A mistake. Forgetting your action? A mistake. Forgetting Pilot ability? A mistake. I agree that you should just eat these mistakes and roll with it - not asking for, or at least not pushing for or expecting take-backs. And I don't feel people are obligated to give in on these. (I would, but I don't think everyone needs to)

And once again... No one is saying you should pounce on someone on their first mistake, that they shouldn't get a friendly warning or anything of the sort. We all agree that they should get at least one warning perhaps more depending on the situation.

Actually, I get the impression that is exactly what ScottyATF is saying. He just said it - "So the rulebook isn't warning enough?"

I guess I just don't think that moving all of your ships of same PS and then taking actions unaffected by that movement to be a "mistake". Just a different way of getting to the same end result.

Ok, but what if they aren't the same way of getting the same end result? What if by doing that way you're actually gaining an advantage?

That's the whole problem here, as long as people are taking that short cut, then every move becomes a judgement call on if that shortcut has an impact on the game or it doesn't. Moving 3 PS4 ships and dropping a focus on them? Sure that's most likely not going to have an effect. Moving those 3 ships then barrel rolling them? What about a TL, or some other action?

Isn't it better to do it in proper order and avoid any possible conflict in the first place?

But that doesn't mean it's ok to keep using shortcuts when the other person asks you to stop using them. I don't need to justify my reasons for wanting to play the rules as written, the whole point is that they're the default everyone should fall back on.

And I don't think that it is ok to keep using shortcuts when the other person asks you to stop either. I believe completely the opposite.

I guess I just don't think that moving all of your ships of same PS and then taking actions unaffected by that movement to be a "mistake". Just a different way of getting to the same end result.

Ok, but what if they aren't the same way of getting the same end result? What if by doing that way you're actually gaining an advantage?

That's the whole problem here, as long as people are taking that short cut, then every move becomes a judgement call on if that shortcut has an impact on the game or it doesn't. Moving 3 PS4 ships and dropping a focus on them? Sure that's most likely not going to have an effect. Moving those 3 ships then barrel rolling them? What about a TL, or some other action?

Isn't it better to do it in proper order and avoid any possible conflict in the first place?

And I think it is perfectly understandable for you to want them to do things in the proper order and insist upon for the entire game it if you feel it is needed. Just that if someone does it, clearly thinking it was ok the first time, you should be nice about it and let them know "not again". I don't think we disagree on this, or at least not by far.

And I don't think that it is ok to keep using shortcuts when the other person asks you to stop either. I believe completely the opposite.

Then we agree and peace will exist on the forms... At least until the next post.

But there are plenty of examples in this thread where people don't agree with that. They feel that they should be able to keep using those shortcuts or even take actions they out and out forgot, and that if we don't allow that, we're being unfair and poor sports.

I think I've said quite enough (probably too much) on this. I'm going to do as suggested and just let this one die if possible.

In actuality I think anyone asking for any take back is displaying poor sportsmanship by placing their opponent in an awkward position rather then just accepting you made a mistake and moving on. Games are won and lost on mistakes.

I guess I just don't think that moving all of your ships of same PS and then taking actions unaffected by that movement to be a "mistake". Just a different way of getting to the same end result. Yes, it isn't in the rules, but the guy is probably perfectly aware and capable of doing it the right way. It isn't that he "forgot" something and wanted a take-back. He knew all along he intended to take those actions.

Flying off the board? A mistake. Forgetting your action? A mistake. Forgetting Pilot ability? A mistake. I agree that you should just eat these mistakes and roll with it - not asking for, or at least not pushing for or expecting take-backs. And I don't feel people are obligated to give in on these. (I would, but I don't think everyone needs to)

Is it to much to ask, instead of following through with the short cut the player ask if it's ok to do so first?