For the guys who say it's ok to move all the same PS then go back and give actions. Here is my squad Dutch, Garvin, Kyle all PS 6 and depend on range when they use an action. so you'd let me move all my ships then measure range?

I am pretty sure the people you're talking about were referring to your original example:

my opponent moved both daggers and went back to focus the first one and I said he couldn't.

Obviously if the moving of all the same PS ships before assigning actions gave them an advantage it shouldn't be allowed.

Focus doesn't give them an advantage because of range.

Evade doesn't either.

Barrel roll does. And shouldn't be allowed.

If he wants to drop tokens at the same time, that's fine. Now, if he's going to barrel roll after moving both, that's a big no no.

I am pretty sure the people you're talking about were referring to your original example:

Yes, if there's no advantage in moving all the ships and then giving actions. Such as Focus, or even TL, then there's no problem. Barrel Rolls, boosts, R1 effects, ect... are all a different thing.

People should be able to look at it and see quite clearly if moving like that gives an unfair advantage or not, and decide accordingly. If nothing else, I don't thin the person who did it should lose their action. Just be limited to actions that don't allow for the unfair advantage.

So in the case of the 2 B-Wings, allowing them to barrel roll is a no-no, but the other guy should still be allowed to take a focus action.

ok, So I am just picking a fight. If we have all these exceptions to this non rule why don't we just follow the rule and be done with it? It's really not that hard to move and then action. I'll never sit on the side that promotes sloppy play and IMO casual does not equal sloppy.

I tend to announce that dagger 1 is taking a focus, move dagger 2 state he's focusing as well, and then plop the tokens out. It's a time save to not have to reach off to the side and grab the token and then re orientate yourself to move the second ship.

It's really not that hard to move and then action. I'll never sit on the side that promotes sloppy play and IMO casual does not equal sloppy.

I think most of us would agree.

But there's a difference between allowing sloppy play and punishing someone for a simple mistake. In a Store Championship it is a different thing, because you're no longer talking about casual play.

But moving all my PS1 Accadmy Pilots and then putting evade tokens on them all at once, is faster then moving each one and putting a token on them. Perhaps not a lot faster but when you're dealing with tie swarms and time limits, every little bit helps.

I have no problem with saying the action and then just placing both tokens down. As long as you place the token you declared. There really are so many advantages you can gain by moving the group at the same PS and then going back to assign actions. If you let this happen the player is getting more information then what should be there at the time he should be taking the action.

If you let this happen the player is getting more information then what should be there at the time he should be taking the action.

Again, that all depends.

Moving a formation of PS1 Ties isn't going to give you any extra information. Nothing else has moved and you knew where the ties would end up anyway.

Same with the 2 Daggers, the only difference there is that 1 of the daggers is in a different spot, but you already knew where that spot would be. So you didn't actually gain any information you didn't already have.

I wouldn't say that Osoroshii. If they are all performing the same move nothing is gained. Now if they are performing different moves then that is diffferent entirely. But the same forward/turn move and they are next to each other? Nothing gained there. (Note doesn't hold for banks...)

The one bit of additional info I can see is whether or not the second one cleared / eyeball whether it has a shot. I suppose that could in SOME instances determine actions of the first. For example:

You control two TIE/ln. TIE 1 (3 hull) is in front of TIE 2 (1 hull), so you want to move it first because TIE 2 would hit TIE 1 if it moved first. T1 moves, and is for sure a legal target of the opponent, a lone X wing. Obviously T2 is the preferred target, but you are unsure if it will be in arc or not. If it is in arc, T2 wants to evade, and T1 wants to focus (for offense). If it's not in arc, T1 wants to evade since it will be the target of the X wing's attack.

This is about the only time I could see getting additional info from moving the second before the first acts, and it's a very rare occurrence.

The one bit of additional info I can see is whether or not the second one cleared / eyeball whether it has a shot. I suppose that could in SOME instances determine actions of the first. For example:

You control two TIE/ln. TIE 1 (3 hull) is in front of TIE 2 (1 hull), so you want to move it first because TIE 2 would hit TIE 1 if it moved first. T1 moves, and is for sure a legal target of the opponent, a lone X wing. Obviously T2 is the preferred target, but you are unsure if it will be in arc or not. If it is in arc, T2 wants to evade, and T1 wants to focus (for offense). If it's not in arc, T1 wants to evade since it will be the target of the X wing's attack.

This is about the only time I could see getting additional info from moving the second before the first acts, and it's a very rare occurrence.

And game changing at that! If you really start thinking you'll find many more, for instants target lock selection. On a one by one basis yes they do come up infrequently but start stacking them and you'll see the unfair "against the rules" advantage you can gain. I really don't see why asking someone to follow the rules such a bad thing. I can't help but hear " I follow the rules unless I don't want to bother with them" on every counter point.

The one bit of additional info I can see is whether or not the second one cleared / eyeball whether it has a shot. I suppose that could in SOME instances determine actions of the first. For example:

You control two TIE/ln. TIE 1 (3 hull) is in front of TIE 2 (1 hull), so you want to move it first because TIE 2 would hit TIE 1 if it moved first. T1 moves, and is for sure a legal target of the opponent, a lone X wing. Obviously T2 is the preferred target, but you are unsure if it will be in arc or not. If it is in arc, T2 wants to evade, and T1 wants to focus (for offense). If it's not in arc, T1 wants to evade since it will be the target of the X wing's attack.

This is about the only time I could see getting additional info from moving the second before the first acts, and it's a very rare occurrence.

And game changing at that! If you really start thinking you'll find many more, for instants target lock selection. On a one by one basis yes they do come up infrequently but start stacking them and you'll see the unfair "against the rules" advantage you can gain. I really don't see why asking someone to follow the rules such a bad thing. I can't help but hear " I follow the rules unless I don't want to bother with them" on every counter point.

I think it's less about following except when you want to, and more about "taking short cuts when it doesn't <normally> affect the game." With the number of modified wins there are, being efficient in your moves is necessary. Time can be cut in determining your maneuvers, which typically comes at a bit of a "oh, I should have done that, but I didn't spend 5 minutes thinking it all through" as well as maneuvers - grabbing both the 5 straight and the 1 straight for the boost since you know your A wing is going to boost... As well as in the combat phase, you declare targets and roll rather quickly, assuming you're aware whether your opponent has elusiveness/SJ. And another short cut is to do your token actions all at once.

Not saying it's right, or even really should be allowed. But that's the reasoning behind it. It's not intended to be a cheat, but rather a "If I can save 5 seconds / ship, that's 30sec/round, over 6 rounds that's 3 minutes... we might be able to get another round in before it goes to time."

I understand the reasons for allowing the rule to be bent on behalf of time. I just fear you will never know if the player your facing will bend it to a personal advantage. Time of rounds should always be considered when building a squad. If you have a squad that can't effectively win in the allotted time consider changing things up.

Move all ships with templates, Yes. If the ships are in formation and he's just moving quickly and moves all ships and places a focus/evade with out measuring (distances after moving) anything, I don't care. Boosts/BR is another matter. Ive gone to two store championships. One guy turned the wrong way twice when he was the first to move and I let him switch it due to it being obvious, I let another guy change his 2 straight to a 1straight (before measuring) because a 2 would obviously put him on an asteroid. Its all judgment calls. None of it really changed the flow of the game, they gained some advantages but most ones they should of had but were caused to rushing. Personal preference and how much you really wanna win I guess. (Placed 1st and third respectfully in those tournaments)

Edit: I'll also point out if a ship didn't take an action if the move to another PS level ship and forgot to do an action, didn't see a target in arc, or just thought something was out of range.

Move all ships with templates, Yes. If the ships are in formation and he's just moving quickly and moves all ships and places a focus/evade with out measuring (distances after moving) anything, I don't care. Boosts/BR is another matter. Ive gone to two store championships. One guy turned the wrong way twice when he was the first to move and I let him switch it due to it being obvious, I let another guy change his 2 straight to a 1straight (before measuring) because a 2 would obviously put him on an asteroid. Its all judgment calls. None of it really changed the flow of the game, they gained some advantages but most ones they should of had but were caused to rushing. Personal preference and how much you really wanna win I guess. (Placed 1st and third respectfully in those tournaments)

Edit: I'll also point out if a ship didn't take an action if the move to another PS level ship and forgot to do an action, didn't see a target in arc, or just thought something was out of range.

My head just exploded !!!

Playing for fun vs. Playing to win.

I'd rather a good game enjoyed by all than winning at all costs...

Playing for fun vs. Playing to win.

I'd rather a good game enjoyed by all than winning at all costs...

And when it comes down to it, you really shouldn't need those small things (outside of not using templates to move formations) to matter in you winning.

Playing for fun vs. Playing to win.

I'd rather a good game enjoyed by all than winning at all costs...

Following the rules = winning at all cost, got it. So I conceded my whole argument and want to become a better casual player. In my quest for casual playing can someone point out other rules I may be following that don't matter to casual play. I mean god forbid I follow a rule and get accused of wining at all cost.

Move all ships with templates, Yes. If the ships are in formation and he's just moving quickly and moves all ships and places a focus/evade with out measuring (distances after moving) anything, I don't care. Boosts/BR is another matter. Ive gone to two store championships. One guy turned the wrong way twice when he was the first to move and I let him switch it due to it being obvious, I let another guy change his 2 straight to a 1straight (before measuring) because a 2 would obviously put him on an asteroid. Its all judgment calls. None of it really changed the flow of the game, they gained some advantages but most ones they should of had but were caused to rushing. Personal preference and how much you really wanna win I guess. (Placed 1st and third respectfully in those tournaments)

Edit: I'll also point out if a ship didn't take an action if the move to another PS level ship and forgot to do an action, didn't see a target in arc, or just thought something was out of range.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a forgiving opponent so long as it's the exception and not the rule. I no longer let my wife go back and fix things mid turn because she is consistently beating me, so dealing with her mistakes is now something she has to prepare for rather than expect forgiveness of.

I really don't see why asking someone to follow the rules such a bad thing. I can't help but hear " I follow the rules unless I don't want to bother with them" on every counter point.

No one is saying, "Do this instead of following the rules."

No one is saying, "Follow the rules unless you don't want to bother with them."

No one is even saying, "Following the rules is okay, unless you are trying to save time."

Anyone who has said anything to you has most likely felt the instant regret when they forget to put a focus token down because they are so busy focusing on where their next ship is going to move. Not because they want to gain some kind of unfair advantage over you.

IMO casual does not equal sloppy.

Literally everyone here would agree with you.

We all agree that there are plenty of instances where moving more than one ship THEN taking an action for all ships moved would present unfairness. No one thinks that this should be allowed. Moving a few ships then giving them actions that would give them ANY advantage is not fair, and not "flying casual."

However, if you wanna be the police officer who tickets people for going 1 mile over the speed limit, (because its the law), prepare for some flak.

Telling someone they missed an action that wouldn't have given them any advantage over you = 1 MPH over posted limit ticket.

Telling someone they can't use an action that would have given them any advantage over you = 20 MPH over posted limit ticket.

Both tickets are justifiable, according to the law.

One guy is enforcing the law.

The other guy is being kind of a tool.

Well, there's rules, and then there's Rules.

There's ones like whether you place your dial next to your ship or on top of the Pilot card it corresponds to -- I can't see caring about that one way or the other.

But movement, in a game of millimeters, I can see being a little more uptight about. I'm sure we've all had situations where you know you were lined up to miss an asteroid, but a couple moves later you clip it by a hair because the table got jostled, or just the infinitesimal adjustments that come from template slips and sticky fingers that add up over time.

Is that 'position drift' a part of the game to be accepted and dealt with, or ignored and hand-waved? I think the former, especially in situations where your ability to fly your ships precisely is the core concept of the list. (And with obvious exceptions for physiological issues.)

But I guess my real question is, am I being a **** if I insist on everyone using the maneuver template for every ship.

Playing for fun vs. Playing to win.

I'd rather a good game enjoyed by all than winning at all costs...

Following the rules = winning at all cost, got it. So I conceded my whole argument and want to become a better casual player. In my quest for casual playing can someone point out other rules I may be following that don't matter to casual play. I mean god forbid I follow a rule and get accused of wining at all cost.

Now don't get me wrong. I call people out for things that WOULD give a serious advantage, moving then measuring firing distance with out doing a target lock action, people barrel rolling then taking it back, and other big ticket items that give visual aids that they shouldn't have or taking actions inside the combat round.

I mean god forbid I follow a rule and get accused of wining at all cost.

I have to agree. Following the rules does not make you a bad person, or a should be thought of as violating the idea of Fly Casual. Especially when you're in the middle of something like the story championship.

When I'm playing for fun I tend to be a bit more lax on the rules, but if I were playing a tourney that's a different thing.

I don't think most of us are disagreeing with your larger point. People should follow the rules as written. They should decide their actions after the move each ship, not as a group and so on. The only thing I'd say, is that if someone does forget, it should be a judgement call on what they can do, that would still be considered fair.

For example when I'm playing, if someone forgets to take an action I'll normally let them focus, because that's sort of the default action.

But I guess my real question is, am I being a **** if I insist on everyone using the maneuver template for every ship.

Not at all.

The difference between someone using a template and NOT using the template is huge.

It literally places the ships in different locations.

If you went 20mph over the speed limit, you can't really accuse the police officer for being a **** for giving you a ticket.

I totally understand Osoroshii, and also understand Bilisknir.

The last tournament one guy had Wedge with Swarm Tactics. The first time he wanted to use it, he didn't "announce" he was using it until after Wedge had already shot. I told him that in the spirit of good sportsmanship, I would allow him to use it this time, but from now on, he had to announce it at the start of the combat phase, and I would hold him to the rules from now on. He agreed.

Also he was a kid, probably 14 yrs old and was really nice, so I'd have felt awful if I was a jerk to him.

I think we owe it to ourselves and to each other to be good sports, and when someone makes a simple mistake that doesn't really have an impact on the game we can at LEAST offer them a warning the FIRST time. Even in a tournament.

But I guess my real question is, am I being a **** if I insist on everyone using the maneuver template for every ship.

Not at all.

The difference between someone using a template and NOT using the template is huge.

It literally places the ships in different locations.

If you went 20mph over the speed limit, you can't really accuse the police officer for being a **** for giving you a ticket.

So here is what happened at the Store Championship. Round 1: I'm flying a Tie Swarm of 6 named pilots and my opponent is playing Bigs walks the dogs. His first move was the rookie forward 3 and then his two daggers forward 3 one right after the other. After completing the moves for the daggers he places a focus next to each of them. At this point I told him he can't have a focus for the first dagger he moved. I went on to explain the rules for movement and then action. He is a competitive Magic the Gathering player so I used a similar instance of the same rule there. After explaining the rule I let him have the focus but warned him it was the last time if he made that mistake again. I as well would hold myself to the same standard. We finished our game and he never made that mistake again. Since it was a smaller group that was playing they all heard the rule and all the games I played no one else made that mistake. The rules for the most part are clearly defined and if your playing at a Store Championship you should know then all and abide by them. To the original posters point,Never would I allow any movement with out a template and further more I would ask that he follow the movement and then action rule as well. This is the reason I brought up what happened at SC I played in as I saw the same broken rule in the OP.