This seams to be a common thing in new expansions now a days ( get a new hero or unique ally that you cant use in a new scenario ) and i like to read your thoughts about this.

I thing that's part of the fact that the " lets make a cool new quest with nice new mechanisms " have changed to " we have to make a new quest to "attack" the current meta " and during this effort they have created some really hard but heavily luck based and frustrating scenarios, in my opinion.

Lack based? Lack of what?

I believe it has to be "luck based".

Is this discussion about Morgul Vale, where you can´t use Faramir and the first VoI quest where you can´t use Grima?

If it is then I would say they are one-offs and the story being told was better for it in Morgul Vale and I have confidence it will add to the story in the Ring-Maker cycle as well.

Yep i mean "luck" sorry my english are really poor

I would describe to "more luck based than it should be". To Catch an Orc is a fine example how you should NOT design a quest. The outcome depends to a large margin of when you're revealing Mugash. At least that's my impression for solo play.

However, i think the designers are still doing a good job. The main problem to me seems to be that OTOH we need strong and ugly encounter cards to make things hard enough, but then if you draw these cards too earlly you don't stand a chgance most of the time. To get a good balance here is the key to deliver a good scenario.

I think devs can do a better job with how they do this. You get a new hero that your all excited to play and then you can't play him/her. This was really kind of silly in the ATS cycle when we got Faramir in AP4 and the we could not use him in AP's 5 and 6.

I think the the design of unlocking a hero or ally is a cool idea, and I would have been happy if Faramir was an objective ally and we got his Hero card as a result of defeating Morgul Vale. That is kind of how I see Grima in VoI. I think they did a good job with this and Arwen since she was Objective ally in first 2 Dwarodelf APs and then we got her in the third AP. I like that, But I think they got it all backwards with Faramir, although his hero was IMO not worth playing in the following two scenarios after his release anyway.

I "mildly agree" on the original post and "completely disagree" on the comment on To Catch an Orc. I think I was annoyed more with not being able to use Faramir in Blood of Gondor since we'd just got him. In the case of Grima it was just the first quest of three and you got him as an ally. The designers are trying to tell a story along with making a Play Against the System game that works for solo and multi-player. A tough design goal. Which brings me to the second point.

To Catch an Orc forces you to redesign your deck so that you have a greater chance that the cards you want are in your deck and not Mugash's. This means fewer one and two ofs. Regarding the outcome depending entirely on when you draw Mugash, well I've beaten it when he comes out early and when he comes out late. It is a luck based game in which we try to put the odds in our favor through our deck design. But it is still a luck based game.

The designers only have so many knobs, levers and switches available. I think the Mugash deck was quite good.

To Catch an Orc is an interesting one and I've kind of gone back and forth on the "luck-based vs. well-designed" verdict, while not being able to shake the fact either way that it's ultimately my favorite in VoI. The tough part for the designers is that you need to introduce random elements for the sake of tension, otherwise a scenario and the game itself becomes too much of a puzzle. Of course, this can be taken too far, and perhaps I have a higher tolerance for "rolling the die", as it were, but I think To Catch an Orc hits the right notes.

I "mildly agree" on the original post and "completely disagree" on the comment on To Catch an Orc. I think I was annoyed more with not being able to use Faramir in Blood of Gondor since we'd just got him. In the case of Grima it was just the first quest of three and you got him as an ally. The designers are trying to tell a story along with making a Play Against the System game that works for solo and multi-player. A tough design goal. Which brings me to the second point.

To Catch an Orc forces you to redesign your deck so that you have a greater chance that the cards you want are in your deck and not Mugash's. This means fewer one and two ofs. Regarding the outcome depending entirely on when you draw Mugash, well I've beaten it when he comes out early and when he comes out late. It is a luck based game in which we try to put the odds in our favor through our deck design. But it is still a luck based game.

The designers only have so many knobs, levers and switches available. I think the Mugash deck was quite good.

But even in a luck based game it is possible to reduce the amount of luck needed to a tolerable minimum. I also like the idea of the Migash deck, which probably works fine for multiplayer games. However, I think that with only some slight changes this scenario would be more versatile and enjoyable:

1) The easiest way: set Mugash's threat level to 49. This allows players to delay the fight if they're running on high WP

2) The other way: instead of adding one card to decide it all into the Mugash deck, add 3-5 bodyguard cards (which shouldn't be as strong as the bodyguards deliered with this game). Mugash will enter the game once a certain number of these cards have been revealed.

3) Or you add some cards like in 2), but instead these are attachments that make Mugash stronger. The players are free to engage Mugash everytime they draw such a card.

That's what I came up with after 5 minutes of thinking. And I think each of these suggestions are better for solo play than the solution that the designers came up with.

to be honestand short... I dont like the idea to limit heroes in some quests in this game. this is just a sign of bad design

I think devs can do a better job with how they do this. You get a new hero that your all excited to play and then you can't play him/her. This was really kind of silly in the ATS cycle when we got Faramir in AP4 and the we could not use him in AP's 5 and 6.

Actually you can use Faramir Hero in AP5 - by the set-up sequence your hero is revealed before the quest setup instruction brings out the Faramir Objective ally - which will then fail to enter play because unique Faramir is already in play.

Therefore you would just have the Alcaron Objective ally - and your Faramir Hero gets captured when you hit Stage 2.

Obviously this does weaken you significantly - you lose a powerful ally for stage 1 and a hero in stage 2 - but it is legal.

By contrast Morgul Vale specifically prohibits the use of Faramir Hero (or Ally).

I "mildly agree" on the original post and "completely disagree" on the comment on To Catch an Orc. I think I was annoyed more with not being able to use Faramir in Blood of Gondor since we'd just got him. In the case of Grima it was just the first quest of three and you got him as an ally. The designers are trying to tell a story along with making a Play Against the System game that works for solo and multi-player. A tough design goal. Which brings me to the second point.

To Catch an Orc forces you to redesign your deck so that you have a greater chance that the cards you want are in your deck and not Mugash's. This means fewer one and two ofs. Regarding the outcome depending entirely on when you draw Mugash, well I've beaten it when he comes out early and when he comes out late. It is a luck based game in which we try to put the odds in our favor through our deck design. But it is still a luck based game.

The designers only have so many knobs, levers and switches available. I think the Mugash deck was quite good.

But even in a luck based game it is possible to reduce the amount of luck needed to a tolerable minimum. I also like the idea of the Migash deck, which probably works fine for multiplayer games. However, I think that with only some slight changes this scenario would be more versatile and enjoyable:

1) The easiest way: set Mugash's threat level to 49. This allows players to delay the fight if they're running on high WP

2) The other way: instead of adding one card to decide it all into the Mugash deck, add 3-5 bodyguard cards (which shouldn't be as strong as the bodyguards deliered with this game). Mugash will enter the game once a certain number of these cards have been revealed.

3) Or you add some cards like in 2), but instead these are attachments that make Mugash stronger. The players are free to engage Mugash everytime they draw such a card.

That's what I came up with after 5 minutes of thinking. And I think each of these suggestions are better for solo play than the solution that the designers came up with.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree because I don't like your ideas as well as what we have. In my opinion this is really a multi-player game that can be played solo. At least that's the way it seems they have always built the quests.

I think devs can do a better job with how they do this. You get a new hero that your all excited to play and then you can't play him/her. This was really kind of silly in the ATS cycle when we got Faramir in AP4 and the we could not use him in AP's 5 and 6.

Actually you can use Faramir Hero in AP5 - by the set-up sequence your hero is revealed before the quest setup instruction brings out the Faramir Objective ally - which will then fail to enter play because unique Faramir is already in play.

Therefore you would just have the Alcaron Objective ally - and your Faramir Hero gets captured when you hit Stage 2.

Obviously this does weaken you significantly - you lose a powerful ally for stage 1 and a hero in stage 2 - but it is legal.

By contrast Morgul Vale specifically prohibits the use of Faramir Hero (or Ally).

Good point, but I'll stick with Faramir ally objective over the hero version any day.

Actually the the second paragraph of my post was written with the 3rd cycle in mind. I love the black riders and i don't yet have the voice of isengard

I "mildly agree" on the original post and "completely disagree" on the comment on To Catch an Orc. I think I was annoyed more with not being able to use Faramir in Blood of Gondor since we'd just got him. In the case of Grima it was just the first quest of three and you got him as an ally. The designers are trying to tell a story along with making a Play Against the System game that works for solo and multi-player. A tough design goal. Which brings me to the second point.

To Catch an Orc forces you to redesign your deck so that you have a greater chance that the cards you want are in your deck and not Mugash's. This means fewer one and two ofs. Regarding the outcome depending entirely on when you draw Mugash, well I've beaten it when he comes out early and when he comes out late. It is a luck based game in which we try to put the odds in our favor through our deck design. But it is still a luck based game.

The designers only have so many knobs, levers and switches available. I think the Mugash deck was quite good.

But even in a luck based game it is possible to reduce the amount of luck needed to a tolerable minimum. I also like the idea of the Migash deck, which probably works fine for multiplayer games. However, I think that with only some slight changes this scenario would be more versatile and enjoyable:

1) The easiest way: set Mugash's threat level to 49. This allows players to delay the fight if they're running on high WP

2) The other way: instead of adding one card to decide it all into the Mugash deck, add 3-5 bodyguard cards (which shouldn't be as strong as the bodyguards deliered with this game). Mugash will enter the game once a certain number of these cards have been revealed.

3) Or you add some cards like in 2), but instead these are attachments that make Mugash stronger. The players are free to engage Mugash everytime they draw such a card.

That's what I came up with after 5 minutes of thinking. And I think each of these suggestions are better for solo play than the solution that the designers came up with.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree because I don't like your ideas as well as what we have. In my opinion this is really a multi-player game that can be played solo. At least that's the way it seems they have always built the quests.

Yeah, I guess it depends on the PoV. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with the direction this game is going, but IMO the developers sometimes miss the opportunity to offer a convincing solo mode for a scenario (The Steward's Fear, Assault on Osgiliath).