Do we know what actual scale the CR90 is? Eyeballing it appears to be around 350mm in length, so somewhere between 1:400 and 1:450. Allowing sliding scale and putting the vigil at 1:500 would make it 500mm in length. Bigger enough I think than the corvette, but possibly more practical in game terms.

I think this discussion is missing something, the core of the game IMO is maneuvers and having all your points sunk in a almost Napoleonic style ship battle with the ships to big to really make them interesting to move takes away from the core of the game. As epic as it would truly be it just subtracts from the total game experience.

If they want to do capital ships right, they really just need to start over and do a whole different game entirely.

Start with an ISD about the size of the current Corvette coming out and go from there (maybe slightly larger). Fighter squadrons could be simulated with the current fighter models, tokens, etc, kind of how the old Star Wars game Rebellion used to do it. One fighter visually was actually a squad of 12. The rules would be way different, but you could still follow the same basic gameplay.

Adding a way off scale ISD to the current game would just be rather silly.

I think this discussion is missing something, the core of the game IMO is maneuvers and having all your points sunk in a almost Napoleonic style ship battle with the ships to big to really make them interesting to move takes away from the core of the game. As epic as it would truly be it just subtracts from the total game experience.

I agree.

What I envision 'Epic Play' being is one, or possibley two, maximum 'Capital-Class' ships per side (CR-90/Vigil/Whatever) with ISDs/MonCals 'off camera.' The remainder of the battle being thematic use of our existing ships. Escort, Seek-and-Destroy, Blockade Run, Whatever.

I think the 'Capital' ships are meant to be used as showpieces added to the starfighter dogfighting game, not to be used in a capital slugfest where annoying starfighters happen to be buzzing around.

Do we know what actual scale the CR90 is? Eyeballing it appears to be around 350mm in length, so somewhere between 1:400 and 1:450. Allowing sliding scale and putting the vigil at 1:500 would make it 500mm in length. Bigger enough I think than the corvette, but possibly more practical in game terms.

A CR90 is 150 meters long.

I think the 'Capital' ships are meant to be used as showpieces added to the starfighter dogfighting game, not to be used in a capital slugfest where annoying starfighters happen to be buzzing around.

I would disagree. For one, it makes little marketing sense to release a model that players will only be able to use once every two-dozen games (only as a showpiece on top of that). Second, from what has been revealed so far, the big ships have a variety of weapons and/or equipment upgrades available to be a real threat to the fighters in the area (which, with the inevitable point cap increase that comes with the big ships, will be far more numerous).

Point being I think they intend it still be a fighter based game, not a capital ship game.

I think the 'Capital' ships are meant to be used as showpieces added to the starfighter dogfighting game, not to be used in a capital slugfest where annoying starfighters happen to be buzzing around.

I would disagree. For one, it makes little marketing sense to release a model that players will only be able to use once every two-dozen games (only as a showpiece on top of that). Second, from what has been revealed so far, the big ships have a variety of weapons and/or equipment upgrades available to be a real threat to the fighters in the area (which, with the inevitable point cap increase that comes with the big ships, will be far more numerous).

You are confused, marketing doesn't care if you don't use it just that you buy it case and point the ability for GW to sell an entire marine chapter to a player at a silly price. You will probably never use it. Marketing says buy it the model will look cool, you will use it, the reality will be very different.

The point is the core of the game will be lost if it becomes about two pieces that's a third the length of the board spiralling around each other because the ship hits everything on the board anyway.

Not saying epic play is a bad thing just that to much will ruin the game. There is nothing better than pulling a cheeky maneuver on an enemy ship and lighting him up to win the game. Could you imagine two big YT1300s with 3-4 times the hull and shields in a fight with a dial worst than a shuttle?

Boring

Point being I think they intend it still be a fighter based game, not a capital ship game.

Oh I agree, which is why the Corvette's weapons and upgrades are geared towards close-range fighter action rather than long-range slugfests.

But big ships are coming, and there will be people making lists centered around them.

You are confused, marketing doesn't care if you don't use it just that you buy it case and point the ability for GW to sell an entire marine chapter to a player at a silly price. You will probably never use it. Marketing says buy it the model will look cool, you will use it, the reality will be very different.

The point is the core of the game will be lost if it becomes about two pieces that's a third the length of the board spiralling around each other because the ship hits everything on the board anyway.

Not saying epic play is a bad thing just that to much will ruin the game. There is nothing better than pulling a cheeky maneuver on an enemy ship and lighting him up to win the game. Could you imagine two big YT1300s with 3-4 times the hull and shields in a fight with a dial worst than a shuttle?

Boring

Of course marketing cares whether people can use it. Because this isn't a collection model, it's a gaming model. If people can't use it, the majority won't buy it. Even GW's models are sold to be used, that's why their previously exclusive Apocalypse model is slowly being merged with the main game: Because it sells better.

Not saying epic play is a bad thing just that to much will ruin the game. There is nothing better than pulling a cheeky maneuver on an enemy ship and lighting him up to win the game. Could you imagine two big YT1300s with 3-4 times the hull and shields in a fight with a dial worst than a shuttle?

Boring

Exactly.

We also need planet tokens so the huge ships will be able to perform free turns in their gravity well.

Not saying epic play is a bad thing just that to much will ruin the game. There is nothing better than pulling a cheeky maneuver on an enemy ship and lighting him up to win the game. Could you imagine two big YT1300s with 3-4 times the hull and shields in a fight with a dial worst than a shuttle?

Boring

Exactly.

There are also people who find TIE-swarm VS TIE-swarm boring to fight. Should we ban those as well?

Look.. it's a starfighter game... adding some fluff psudo cap ship action is fun for a scenario, and the more I see the more I am convinced they aren't coming out with larger ships..

Think about it for the transport scenario they are using an off board effect for the ISD that works perfectly for the game, and gives the Empire a great chance to fight the small transport, with some added effects "off camera" so the players can imagine there is a guy standing on a bridge saying. 'Good, our first catch of the day' no ship needed because our minds will work better fornthe effect.

I for one hope they never build a skimpy lame undersized ISD.. it will destroy the credibility of the ship and make it a joke.. a sad fate for such an awesome ship...

Even GW's models are sold to be used, that's why their previously exclusive Apocalypse model is slowly being merged with the main game: Because it sells better.

I completely understand that.

Unfortunately, and I am trying to avoid opening the pandora's box that is a discusion about GW business practices on the FFG forum, GW is selling to a smaller and smaller audience whom have larger and larger bank accounts.

Apocalypse is not about any of the small things on the table, it is about the giant vehicles with D-Weapons that wipe the small things on the table (literally) away by the armload. The only reason infantry and small tanks are there is to 'grab objectives' and for the novelty of removing them.

I sincearly hope that FFG leaves that kind of play to those who serve that Emperor and not our Emperor.

There are also people who find TIE-swarm VS TIE-swarm boring to fight. Should we ban those as well?

Very true.

I am not one of those folks, but to me at least, moving around 7-8 TIE fighters per side around the board would be more fun to play than standing next to a half dozen (or more if my understanding what you would prefer Epic Play to be) capital ships per side that stand still because there is just not enough room on the board for them all and the most dramatic maneuvering is where it 'lists lazily to the left.' (Hehe, Blue Harvest )

There are also people who find TIE-swarm VS TIE-swarm boring to fight. Should we ban those as well?

Very true.

I am not one of those folks, but to me at least, moving around 7-8 TIE fighters per side around the board would be more fun to play than standing next to a half dozen (or more if my understanding what you would prefer Epic Play to be) capital ships per side that stand still because there is just not enough room on the board for them all and the most dramatic maneuvering is where it 'lists lazily to the left.' (Hehe, Blue Harvest )

I highly doubt epic play will be "half a dozen" capital ships. Assuming FFG wants players to be able to field a fully upgraded Corvette, we're looking at somewhere around 150 to 200 points. That's barely enough to field two stock Corvette's.

I highly doubt epic play will be "half a dozen" capital ships. Assuming FFG wants players to be able to field a fully upgraded Corvette, we're looking at somewhere around 150 to 200 points. That's barely enough to field two stock Corvette's.

Which is why I said this:

That implied, to me at least, that you are advocating many capital ships on the table at the same time. Since Apocalypse and GW was the example, where a standard WH40k game is 1500pts, and Apoc games start at 3000 and go up to 700,000 or more.

I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant.

No apologies needed, looks like a double misunderstanding on both our ends. I thought you were implying that the Corvette's would only be set pieces, playable only in a limited amount of scenario's that specifically call for them.

Nope. I am stoked to use 'em!

I can imagine flying a Star Destroyer being an amazing experience. Having to get just the right placement to focus enough batteries on different ships to take them out, knowing that I cannot take sustained fire for more than 3 rounds, pumping actions and energy into my scattered support ties, trying to get everything right. It would be amazing. FFG can make that happen. That isn't boring, it's something different, but it isn't boring. Certainly less boring than having a super manueverable 360 degree turret ship that neuters all forms of position.

If the big ships make me feel like an Admiral we're good and FFG gets my monies.

We're going to need a bigger boat.

And 48 TIE Fighter, 12 TIE Interceptors, 12 TIE Bombers, 8 Lambda Shuttles, 15 yet-unreleased Stormtrooper transports, 5 yet-unreleased Assault Gunboats, and possibly some Skipray blastboats.

I am for an ISD to replace my Plano Tackle box to store my wing of Imperial fighters. Right now pictured is only 34 TIE Fighters, 18 TIE Interceptors, 12 TIE Bombers, 9 TIE Advances, and 2 Lambda Shuttles.

I am looking to replace one standard squadron of TIE Fighters with a mix of TIE Advances / Interceptors.

I am waiting for The Imperial Supply Corp to deliver 6 more Lambda Shuttles. (In the mail)

Finally figured out how to post the darn picture.

That isn't boring, it's something different, but it isn't boring.

What you describe isn't a ISD either. Lets say you have even 250 points to play with. A ISD should have zero issue destroying 250 points worth of stuff before it takes even minor damage.

That's the problem with the ISD. It's just too powerful to fit in this game in anything less then a 750 point list. People keep talking about how they can maybe make the rules work with epic, but that's just wishful thinking.

The capabilities of a ISD is a known factor, it's a fact of canon, not an opinion. Same goes for the CR-90. So we can look at those two ships and say for a irrefutable fact how much more powerful a ISD is then a CR-90.

So there's only two options here. Either the ISD has the equivalent firepower of a ISD or it doesn't. How the rules work out doesn't really matter, either it has the power of a ISD compared to a CR-90 or it doesn't. There's no way the rules can make 1=10, it's just a matter of simple math here.

If it has the correct amount of firepower then it needs to be balanced with the point cost. If it doesn't then it's not really an ISD. In that case just be honest and use the Vigil-Class Corvette rather then nerf a ISD.

I've seen 3 Rookie Xwings take down an ISD. (Early mission, Rebel Assault 1) They were meant for capitol ship engagements not for fighting fighters, significantly reducing their point costs relative to X-wing as a game. Big ships were always vulnerable to Torpedo Strikes from manueverable ships. Hell, the empire built smaller anti fighter ships to combat the problem. So yes, what I described is a Star Destroyer trying to deal with nuke loaded gnats.

EERRRRR.....

I dont think the Rebel Assault games count as being... totally acurate.... XD

Anyways indeed Star Destroyers are more suited for Capital ship engagements, but the ISD2 was upgraded with more point defences I thought?

Also they kinda come with a boatload of TIE's.... Would be weird to just have an empty ISD flaoting around.... not counting th Errant Venture but thats a special kind of special

I've seen 3 Rookie Xwings take down an ISD. (Early mission, Rebel Assault 1)

Video games are not canon and so don't really count for this discussion.

What is canon however, is how it took 2 full squads of X-Wings firing torpedoes and using a special tracking system to make them all hit at the same moment to take out a ISD.

Since when aren't the games canon? They were for ages, and that's more than enough for me. Every EU ship we have started in a comic or a game. Star Destroyers can 100% feel right in X-wing. The only way it can't is if you as a player don't let it. The game is about fun. There are fun ways to put a Destroyer into X-wing. It is not about cinematic accuracy or even scale combat. And I can think of very few things I would find more fun than fielding a 100 point 2 foot long Star Destroyer in this game. Win or lose. Fair or not. It would be amazing, because the designers have made everything in this game absolutely amazing. Even the things about it I hate.(Mainly the Falcon)