I was just pointing to that with 120 guns (60 Ion, 60 turbo), it could never bring more than 60 to bear on a target.

True enough.

But we know what a single Turbo Laser does right now... So even though we don't have all the rules, we do have some stuff released.

Now consider that's just a single Turbo Laser not a Battery... Now consider using 30 of those to fire on a CR-90 in one turn.

You'll need to place several damage decks on the ship card.

in a flat design you can never have all guns on one target, only in a round cylinder shape can you achieve that..

the efficient design of the ISD is that it can bring the fight to all sides, of there is an enemy above and below they can shoot it, and double the coverage on a target ahead of it if they want to destroy it. look how handily it to out the Tantive IV... the ISD could have easily destroyed that ship had that been the objective..

The ISD is a nice way to get in the middle of your enemies and start doing damage..

You don't have to lose that all around firepower. I meant that if you took the ISD, if you spaced the guns properly or elevated the rear guns, you could get every gun to fire directly forward while still maintaining that ability to fly into the middle and shoot in all directions.

I just wouldn't count out CR90 in a space battle with ISD's. They lasted at Endor although there were a lot of other targets; I guess the point is we don't know how long a CR90 should last.

I was just pointing to that with 120 guns (60 Ion, 60 turbo), it could never bring more than 60 to bear on a target.

True enough.

But we know what a single Turbo Laser does right now... So even though we don't have all the rules, we do have some stuff released.

Now consider that's just a single Turbo Laser not a Battery... Now consider using 30 of those to fire on a CR-90 in one turn.

Could you imagine the hate that would flow if ISD's couldn't use that? I know we have some things that give clues but I doubt that a ISD will have the ability to equip 30 of those. I actually think that the ISD if it ever comes out won't be as customizeable as the CR90. Which kind of makes sense.

Now consider that's just a single Turbo Laser not a Battery... Now consider using 30 of those to fire on a CR-90 in one turn.

That is the reason having an actual model on the table would have to be reduced to something that is no longer an ISD.

The amount of firepower that it could bring to bear, not to mention the firepower needed to get through the shielding, is rediculous at this level of a game.

You would be playing two games at that point.

One where the capital ships pound eachother into submission. The other where the fighters blast each other into oblivion.

indeed, at 8 points a pop, and figure the ISD .. in 2 parts let's say.. at 150 each.. games just got seriously out of hand.. minimum 400 points, for 1 ISD and a 100 point squad.

I see what you are saying about the guns, but the ISD that took out the Tantive IV didn't seem to have any problems. with the design of the triangular ISDs they don't need to raise anything the rear guns are already in a position to not be blocked by forward gun positions.

I know we have some things that give clues but I doubt that a ISD will have the ability to equip 30 of those.

Which is the whole point. If you can't equip and fire 30 turbo laser batteries, then you no longer have a ISD. So why bother?

I mean if you have to reduce it to 1/10th of it's real size, and 1/10th of it's real firepower... All you're left with is a ISD looking Corvette. Why use one then? I'd much rather that they pick one of the many ships the Empire used that is already at the correct scale in terms of size and firepower.

Now consider that's just a single Turbo Laser not a Battery... Now consider using 30 of those to fire on a CR-90 in one turn.

That is the reason having an actual model on the table would have to be reduced to something that is no longer an ISD.

The amount of firepower that it could bring to bear, not to mention the firepower needed to get through the shielding, is rediculous at this level of a game.

All I'm calling for is level head when it comes to that notion because you should preface it with "I think..." No one will argue with you that it should be more powerful than the CR90. Its just a matter of how much more powerful and if it fits into the game which people differ on. No one can say with any real certainty until it is ever released, which it may never be.

It's a game so the game should come first. If starfighter lasers can hurt an ISD like in the games, so be it (although I know some really don;t like this idea). I also don;t think its an exact sience. The challenge will be to create something that hits other capital ships hard and is itself hard to kill. It does't mathematically need 10 times more firepower than the CR90. Its not an exact science. I'd be happy with a ship like that but I think I feel the - alternative term for hate- again.

-edit- when I mean other games, I mean the computer games.

indeed, at 8 points a pop, and figure the ISD .. in 2 parts let's say.. at 150 each.. games just got seriously out of hand.. minimum 400 points, for 1 ISD and a 100 point squad.

I see what you are saying about the guns, but the ISD that took out the Tantive IV didn't seem to have any problems. with the design of the triangular ISDs they don't need to raise anything the rear guns are already in a position to not be blocked by forward gun positions.

Take a look at the Wookipedia article. The problem is the ship was made for movies so the guns are put into these nice blocks in nice lines so directly forward the guns in the back can't shoot. Please don't read this as snotty. Dang internet and lack of tone.

As to the firepower equation we already see firepower scaling. An X-Wing is not firepower 4 compared to Tie. It's not that unfeasible to see it happen with the bigger ships.

Its just a matter of how much more powerful and if it fits into the game which people differ on.

In one book for example it took 5 of them to do meaningful damage to a single ISD, and one that was already damaged to start with.

It's a game so the game should come first.

Yes it should, that means if something doesn't work right in the game, it shouldn't be included.

If starfighter lasers can hurt an ISD like in the games, so be it...

And again, we have plenty of canon sources that show that the video games were wrong. The only weapon a X-Wing really has that can do any damage to a ISD is the proton torpedo.

Thing is... X-Wing miniatures doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a ton of canon information out there on the capabilities of these ships, and FFG has to match up this game to what's already out there.

As to the firepower equation we already see firepower scaling.

No, there's no firepower scaling in this game. A-Wings were never as hard hitting as a X-Wing was, and Tie Fighters can shoot down a X-Wing or Y-Wing fairly easily.

The amount of firepower the fighters have compared to the rest of the fighters is pretty much dead on.

Its just a matter of how much more powerful and if it fits into the game which people differ on.

There's more then enough canon sources out there to show just exactly how much more powerful then a CR-90 a ISD should be.

In one book for example it took 5 of them to do meaningful damage to a single ISD, and one that was already damaged to start with.

It's a game so the game should come first.

Yes it should, that means if something doesn't work right in the game, it shouldn't be included.

If starfighter lasers can hurt an ISD like in the games, so be it...

And again, we have plenty of canon sources that show that the video games were wrong. The only weapon a X-Wing really has that can do any damage to a ISD is the proton torpedo.

Thing is... X-Wing miniatures doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a ton of canon information out there on the capabilities of these ships, and FFG has to match up this game to what's already out there.

Why does it HAVE to match up with canon? The video games were under Lucasarts and they didn't for the sake of the game. If they got the feel of an ISD right without being technically correct like they've done with the small ships (ex. Ties taking more than one hit), I'd be ok with it.

All I'm calling for is level head when it comes to that notion because you should preface it with "I think..." No one will argue with you that it should be more powerful than the CR90. Its just a matter of how much more powerful and if it fits into the game which people differ on. No one can say with any real certainty until it is ever released, which it may never be.

It's a game so the game should come first. If starfighter lasers can hurt an ISD like in the games, so be it (although I know some really don;t like this idea). I also don;t think its an exact sience. The challenge will be to create something that hits other capital ships hard and is itself hard to kill. It does't mathematically need 10 times more firepower than the CR90. Its not an exact science. I'd be happy with a ship like that but I think I feel the - alternative term for hate- again.

-edit- when I mean other games, I mean the computer games.

I understand.

I guess the basis for how I feel is based in the information that we do have about ISDs.

When you combine all the sources we have, which includes movies, books, games, etc, we have an estimate on the relative firepower of an ISD.

I feel that based on that information, we can safely assume that you would have to drastically reduce the firepower of an ISD in order to include it in XWMG. At that point it is no longer an ISD, but a ship that looks like an ISD that was designed to be used in XWMG.

The only weapon a X-Wing really has that can do any damage to a ISD is the proton torpedo.

That's easy to implement with a pilot ability for the ISD: "When defending, you may add three evade results."

As to the firepower equation we already see firepower scaling.

No, there's no firepower scaling in this game. A-Wings were never as hard hitting as a X-Wing was, and Tie Fighters can shoot down a X-Wing or Y-Wing fairly easily.

The amount of firepower the fighters have compared to the rest of the fighters is pretty much dead on.

I think we might be working from a different stance here. I was simply trying to point out that an X-Wing has twice the firepower than a Tie in canon but not in the game.

indeed, at 8 points a pop, and figure the ISD .. in 2 parts let's say.. at 150 each.. games just got seriously out of hand.. minimum 400 points, for 1 ISD and a 100 point squad.

I see what you are saying about the guns, but the ISD that took out the Tantive IV didn't seem to have any problems. with the design of the triangular ISDs they don't need to raise anything the rear guns are already in a position to not be blocked by forward gun positions.

Take a look at the Wookipedia article. The problem is the ship was made for movies so the guns are put into these nice blocks in nice lines so directly forward the guns in the back can't shoot. Please don't read this as snotty. Dang internet and lack of tone.

As to the firepower equation we already see firepower scaling. An X-Wing is not firepower 4 compared to Tie. It's not that unfeasible to see it happen with the bigger ships.

Not offended my friend.. you'd have to try harder to offend me or upset me than what you are doing now.. haha.

I realize it was designed more for a broad side effect, but the ISD is an all around fighter.. it can take all comers and dish it out... all the guns on an ISD are turrets, so they can turn as needed. sure some of the ones next to them may get in the way of that forward fire solution, but that's what firing arcs are for.. to delineate where a gun can shoot..

and needless to say I am totally in agreement with Vanor on this as well.

I feel that based on that information, we can safely assume that you would have to drastically reduce the firepower of an ISD in order to include it in XWMG. At that point it is no longer an ISD, but a ship that looks like an ISD that was designed to be used in XWMG.

I just wouldn't assume.

it's hard to judge fire power from a movie.. look how many X wings got one shot by a TIE. and then all the TIEs getting one shot.. but in the X wing game there is no way a TIE can one shot a X wing. and I discount video games completely.. I mean who will play a video game where you get no reward for all that shooting at the target.. be it a ISD or a Lancer or some such.. those games are all about making the players happy.. X wing is trying to keep a game balance, but I also feel they are working the official stats of the ships they create. So yeah, X wings one shot a TIE pretty often, that's why you throw 2 TIEs at one.. so points are geared towards that too.. I mean, who would play the empire if they always died and never won.. no bodoy

The only way to do it is mess with the scale of the ship, or have a section represented on a map. I really don't see the need for it.

it's hard to judge fire power from a movie.. look how many X wings got one shot by a TIE. and then all the TIEs getting one shot.. but in the X wing game there is no way a TIE can one shot a X wing. and I discount video games completely.. I mean who will play a video game where you get no reward for all that shooting at the target.. be it a ISD or a Lancer or some such.. those games are all about making the players happy.. X wing is trying to keep a game balance, but I also feel they are working the official stats of the ships they create. So yeah, X wings one shot a TIE pretty often, that's why you throw 2 TIEs at one.. so points are geared towards that too.. I mean, who would play the empire if they always died and never won.. no bodoy

Why discount that video game stance when you could easily apply it X-Wing minis?

-edit- Like the upcoming Tie Phantom. For the sake of the game it can still be shot when it's cloaked. The developers get creative. They get the feel of the ship right even though its not up to canon.

it's hard to judge fire power from a movie.. look how many X wings got one shot by a TIE. and then all the TIEs getting one shot.. but in the X wing game there is no way a TIE can one shot a X wing. and I discount video games completely.. I mean who will play a video game where you get no reward for all that shooting at the target.. be it a ISD or a Lancer or some such.. those games are all about making the players happy.. X wing is trying to keep a game balance, but I also feel they are working the official stats of the ships they create. So yeah, X wings one shot a TIE pretty often, that's why you throw 2 TIEs at one.. so points are geared towards that too.. I mean, who would play the empire if they always died and never won.. no bodoy

Why discount that video game stance when you could easily apply it X-Wing minis?

-edit- Like the upcoming Tie Phantom. For the sake of the game it can still be shot when it's cloaked. The developers get creative. They get the feel of the ship right even though its not up to canon.

video games aren't usually designed to the hard concepts of the canon info, but more to make them fun and entertaining.. My own opinion there.. so I discount their validity to any type of game that uses canon concepts and ideas..

and as for the Phantom being able to be shot.. there is a precedence for that concept. I would have possibly used an idea where you remove the ship and drop the token and when it decloaked you could put the ship any where around it in say.. a 2 straigh out from it.. if you're in an arc, then someone can take a shot. but that might be too OP.. but you could tweek the stats or not give it the extra 2 evade dice.

Why does it HAVE to match up with canon?

A couple reasons.

One this is a competitive game, not a single player video game. We're not the heroes of the story who can do extraordinary things against a computer that can't complain about it.

Two, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because it was done wrong in one source doesn't mean it should be done wrong in other sources.

Three, I didn't spend $200 for a single ISD model when I bought X-Wing. So I'm going to be a lot more picky about how that ISD works in XWM.

I was simply trying to point out that an X-Wing has twice the firepower than a Tie in canon but not in the game.

Actually if you look at the odds of how much damage a X-Wing can do vs a single Tie, it's pretty close to that.

I just wouldn't assume.

I agree assume is a divisive word. Deduce?

Why discount that video game stance when you could easily apply it X-Wing minis?

-edit- Like the upcoming Tie Phantom. For the sake of the game it can still be shot when it's cloaked. The developers get creative. They get the feel of the ship right even though its not up to canon.

I know what you are saying and I agree that in order to make the game playable FFG needs to, hehe, make it playable. A ship that is untouchable in a game is no fun.

There is a huge difference between the Phantom and a ship as large as a ISD though.

Video games allow you to do the impossible. No matter how much you crouch behind a wall, the 50cal machine gun you took to the face will never heal.

it's hard to judge fire power from a movie.. look how many X wings got one shot by a TIE. and then all the TIEs getting one shot.. but in the X wing game there is no way a TIE can one shot a X wing. and I discount video games completely.. I mean who will play a video game where you get no reward for all that shooting at the target.. be it a ISD or a Lancer or some such.. those games are all about making the players happy.. X wing is trying to keep a game balance, but I also feel they are working the official stats of the ships they create. So yeah, X wings one shot a TIE pretty often, that's why you throw 2 TIEs at one.. so points are geared towards that too.. I mean, who would play the empire if they always died and never won.. no bodoy

Why discount that video game stance when you could easily apply it X-Wing minis?

-edit- Like the upcoming Tie Phantom. For the sake of the game it can still be shot when it's cloaked. The developers get creative. They get the feel of the ship right even though its not up to canon.

video games aren't usually designed to the hard concepts of the canon info, but more to make them fun and entertaining.. My own opinion there.. so I discount their validity to any type of game that uses canon concepts and ideas..

and as for the Phantom being able to be shot.. there is a precedence for that concept. I would have possibly used an idea where you remove the ship and drop the token and when it decloaked you could put the ship any where around it in say.. a 2 straigh out from it.. if you're in an arc, then someone can take a shot. but that might be too OP.. but you could tweek the stats or not give it the extra 2 evade dice.

I guess I was trying to point out that X-Wing minis seems follow the same development thought process that the video games followed. Game first but try your hardest to make it fit the canon. Like Corran in an E-Wing, shooting cloaked Tie Phantoms, Y-Wings having more armor than B-Wings, and I'm pretty sure Wraith Squadron had X-Wings more maneuverable than A-Wings so that's probably wrong in this mini game too.

I'd just trust the FFG developers with the game until they give me a reason not to.

I guess I was trying to point out that X-Wing minis seems follow the same development thought process that the video games followed.

There is no doubt that X-Wing Miniature draws some concepts from the game. I mean per canon the X-Wing, Y-Wing and Tie Fighter should all fly at about the same speed. Also there wasn't a single case of the Y-Wing using a ion cannon in the movies...

I'd just trust the FFG developers with the game until they give me a reason not to.

That's all any of us can do really. I don't for a moment think these discussions will change FFG's decision on if they will or won't release a ISD at some point. But we gotta have something to talk about and drive up our post count... Otherwise we might have actually accomplish something when we're at work.

That's all any of us can do really. I don't for a moment think these discussions will change FFG's decision on if they will or won't release a ISD at some point. But we gotta have something to talk about and drive up our post count... Otherwise we might have actually accomplish something when we're at work.

My boss would agree with you!