not to forget summing up the few dozen tie fighters in its hanger, for which we have values.

Yeah I'm just looking at the cost of a ISD without it's fighters.

Now lets consider just the difference in guns a ISD has vs a CR-90.

A CR-90 has 2 Dual Turbolasers, and 4 single turbolasers.

A ISD I has 6 Dual heavy turbolaser turrets, 2 Dual heavy ion cannon turrets, 2 Quad heavy turbolasers, 3 Triple medium turbolasers, 2 Medium turbolasers 60 heavy turbolasers, and 60 ion cannons.

A ISD II has 8 Octuple barbette turbolaser or Ion cannons, 50 Heavy turbolaser batteries, 50 Turbolaser batteries, 26+ Additional turbolaser batteries, and 20 Heavy ion cannons.

Looking at the smallest least armed ship the VSD I it has 10 Quad turbolaser batteries and 40 Double turbolaser batteries.

So even the lowest firepower version has 10 quad and 40 double vs 2 double and 4 single, that is a 15 to 1 advantage in guns.

There's actually a some major discrepancies when it comes to the armament of a ISD. The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels has the armament of 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons, without reference as to how they are grouped in batteries. The Imp Star Deuces has 100 turbolaser and 20 ion cannons. It looks like the Wookiepedia article actually pulled its description from the RPG sourcebook, so it may just be an artifice of the game for the RPG and I don't think it should be considered canon IF we go by pure canon standards..

I would think the more conservative description of firepower is probably more accurate just because it scales correctly to a comparison with what we know about the Mon Cals with 48 turbolasers and 36 ion cannons, them basically being very comparable combatants with the Mon Cal being tough and the ISD having more firepower.

Look I know some people would like a SD bit it just isn't the ship to field on the table. Something akin to the new transport scenario is much better, then we can all envision an awe inspiring vessel sitting just off map being oppressive and devastating.. not some puny 'let's put it on the table' severely crippled version of it... it's just ridiculous..

Wookieepedia is always dubious, because ANYONE can change it for their own reason or purpose.. I understand that most people input the typical or canon information, but I have seen people manipulate it for their own puropses... when citing wookieepedia info, one should also find other canon sources .. and research them to be sure they match.

Look I know some people would like a SD bit it just isn't the ship to field on the table. Something akin to the new transport scenario is much better, then we can all envision an awe inspiring vessel sitting just off map being oppressive and devastating.. not some puny 'let's put it on the table' severely crippled version of it... it's just ridiculous..

I don't know if it was clear from my post, but the 60 Turbo and 60 Ion is from pretty canon source.

I think the divide here is how you view the ISD. To me its just a workhorse medium sized ship of the Empire. While it is undoubtedly powerful, it is neither "oppressive and devastating" to me. It may be because I'm jaded by playing too much X-Wing Alliance and killing too many of them. It's just surprising to see people say definitively they won't release one when it seems to be backed up by opinions on whether people think they "should" which all seems to be based on a person's view of the ISD in terms of acceptable scale and power. Ultimately the ISD is the ONLY iconic and THE SMALLEST Imperial capital ship from the original series. On that basis alone I wouldn't rule out us seeing a release completely.

Oddly, the only time you see capital ships blown up in the original series, other than Mon Cals being blown up by the Death Star, are ISD's.

-Note: I'm not discounting the Transport scenario here. I just don;t think it would control if they do a release since If they do an actual ISD just putting it on the table would probably throw the scenario out of wack and in practical terms it wouldn't make sense to include full rules for an ISD in the transport release and they wanted to recreate iconic scenes from the movies.

it is neither "oppressive and devastating" to me.

It's not a question how powerful they are, so much as is a question of how powerful they are compared to CR-90's. You can't base their power level on a video game which is not canon.

Sure Wookiepedia isn't the most trustworthy source. But it's the only one I have access to right now. But it's close enough to make the point on just how much more powerful a ISD is compared to a CR-90.

It's just surprising to see people say definitively they won't release one

No one is actually saying that, we're saying why we think they shouldn't do it. Clearly FFG can do what ever they want, and if they make what is IMO a massively bad decision then that's up to them.

On that basis alone I wouldn't rule out us seeing a release completely.

Wave 4 shows just how much FFG has embraced the EU, so there is no reason to limit ships to the movies. Just because that's the smallest cap ship seen in a movie, doesn't mean it needs to be released. Especially when you so many issues with trying to fit something that large into the game.

The Vigil seems to be the perfect ship to use, it looks like a ISD so it has the classic look people are looking for, and it fits into the current scale of the game.

(Granted it wouldn't fit with their sliding scale at all, whereas the Star Destroyer can.)

I just don't see a sliding scale that could fit a Star Destroyer. I love the Star Destroyer. It is my favorite ship by far but it just does not fit into this game without looking like some cruiser, which it is not. The scale in this game is important to me as I think it is to many others. It is not the end all be all, the transport & cr-90 are within reason and believable (why I've already pre-ordered them). But to put a SD that was little bigger than those planned next to the corvette, stretches even my suspension of disbelief too far.

For a little perspective.

This is the LEGO 10030 SD along with the FFG ships. It is a little over 3 feet long and I believe the scale is around 1/1700. The little white lego ship is a cr-90 to scale with the SD (even then it's a bit big).

I love this game because it feels and looks like a SW dogfight. I just don't see a SD as a credible option for this game. At least not one that would be any sense of justice for the SD & still be playable. If they made one, would I buy it? Perhaps as a display piece, but I can already get one of those If I wanted.

And that "shouldn't" argument is completely invalid.

...

...

so I suppose a snow globe sized Death Star for around 30 points should be also ok, I mean it was technically a one shot by an x-wing.

and since it might be fun it would also fit the game.

If you can't see the logical fallacy there you might want to look it up. You're exaggurating my point to beyond the bounds of reason. But if they managed to make it fun and feel like a Death Star I see no reason they couldn't sell it.(Granted it wouldn't fit with their sliding scale at all, whereas the Star Destroyer can.)

...

of course it's exaggerated, that was the whole point of it.

But it's also just applying the criteria you set on a different target, and exaggerated or not it works.

it is neither "oppressive and devastating" to me.

It's not a question how powerful they are, so much as is a question of how powerful they are compared to CR-90's. You can't base their power level on a video game which is not canon.

Sure Wookiepedia isn't the most trustworthy source. But it's the only one I have access to right now. But it's close enough to make the point on just how much more powerful a ISD is compared to a CR-90.

It's just surprising to see people say definitively they won't release one

No one is actually saying that, we're saying why we think they shouldn't do it. Clearly FFG can do what ever they want, and if they make what is IMO a massively bad decision then that's up to them.

On that basis alone I wouldn't rule out us seeing a release completely.

Wave 4 shows just how much FFG has embraced the EU, so there is no reason to limit ships to the movies. Just because that's the smallest cap ship seen in a movie, doesn't mean it needs to be released. Especially when you so many issues with trying to fit something that large into the game.

The Vigil seems to be the perfect ship to use, it looks like a ISD so it has the classic look people are looking for, and it fits into the current scale of the game.

The source I was citing was the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, a book detailing ships and their technical data and had nothing to do with the a game. To my knowledge, it may be the only source of canon with hard numbers on the firepower of the ISD. Just as an example as to how to make it fit the game If you were take to take a flight base about 2-2.5 feet in length and break it up into 10 squares with their own firing arcs, each with firepower equivalent to one CR90 you would actually fairly represent an ISD's power (if you want to cover the Ion Cannons you could give each section a cannon upgrade) since if you want to follow cannon sources the ISD had about 10 x the firepower (in lasers) of the CR90 but could not bring all of its guns to bear on one target.

I'm sure we disagree about how much power the ISD should have or whether them releasing it would be dumb or great. When it comes to the EU the releases for the capital ships have kept to the iconic stuff from the original trilogy, which I understand because I think FFG understands that people won't be buying a bunch of them. But I do recognize the trend of keeping EU off the capital ships, just like the scale, could easily be broken.

-edit - I realized I referred to trilogies. I meant the original trilogy.

Jaster; that's an awesome lego set. I am very jealous.

if you want to follow cannon sources the ISD had about 10 x the firepower (in lasers) of the CR90 but could not bring all of its guns to bear on one target

But even a broadside with half it's guns still means you're looking at 5 times the firepower of a CR-90. That means per canon, a ISD should be around 5 times the cost of a CR-90, to account for it's greater firepower. Perhaps more, depending on how the arc's work out.

Either way you clearly can't put a ISD in the game with the correct level of firepower and have it cost 150 points.

When it comes to the EU the releases for the capital ships have kept to the iconic stuff from the original trilogy, which I understand because I think FFG understands that people won't be buying a bunch of them.

So far we have 2, so that's not exactly a lot of data to base a conclusion off. It could be just as easy to say that based on what they've done so far, we'll never see a Imperial cap ship. Would a ship from the OT sell better then one from the EU? More then likely, I'm sure that's why the released all the OT fighters first, rather then having Z-95's and E-Wings in wave 1.

But just because an ISD may or may not sell well, doesn't mean it's a good idea. There's no question that a lot of us won't buy one if it's nerfed to hell and back in both firepower and size, because to a lot of us scale does matter a great deal.

So if you're the one making the decision what makes the most sense.

1) A ship that looks a lot like a ISD that fits in the game, and can be made to the proper scale, which you know people care about, and is correct for canon, which again you know a lot of people care about. Also one that costs about $125-150

2) A ISD which is not to scale, does not have the correct level of firepower, and costs $200. All of those 3 issues being things you know will hurt sales. But it does have the advantage of being from the OT.

Sorry, it still doesn't work... you can't make a ISD a small insignificant toy on the playing field... because that's what you guys are suggesting...

The presence of an ISD is supposed to strike fear in the eyes of the Empires enemies. This is the impression they give us in the movies and the books.

It is a weapon of intimidation and oppression, it fields many troopers and vehicles to keep a planet of people in line.. its fighter compliment consists of multiple squadrons to be able to deal with different situations.. bombers, fighters, shuttles even..

How you can imagine this is accomplished in a 2 foot model, is beyond me..

Or...

3) A ship that looks a lot like a ISD that fits in the game, not in proper scale, which you know some people don't care about, and is correct for canon.

More than likely, per canon, an ISD couldn't bring more than a quarter of its guns to bear on a small target like the CR90. Take 60 guns, put half on top and half on the bottom. Then due to the shape, cut the guns in half again because the guns on the left can't shoot target on the right (give or take a couple of guns for axial mounts) and guns in the back of the ship weren't positioned well so they could fire directly forward.

Sorry, it still doesn't work... you can't make a ISD a small insignificant toy on the playing field... because that's what you guys are suggesting...

The presence of an ISD is supposed to strike fear in the eyes of the Empires enemies. This is the impression they give us in the movies and the books.

It is a weapon of intimidation and oppression, it fields many troopers and vehicles to keep a planet of people in line.. its fighter compliment consists of multiple squadrons to be able to deal with different situations.. bombers, fighters, shuttles even..

How you can imagine this is accomplished in a 2 foot model, is beyond me..

Its the same way we manage to get the sense of wonder from tiny X-Wings. You get the rules right and it'll be fine but you have to get past how you feel about scale first, and that just a personal preference question.

edit - double post

Sorry, it still doesn't work... you can't make a ISD a small insignificant toy on the playing field... because that's what you guys are suggesting...

The presence of an ISD is supposed to strike fear in the eyes of the Empires enemies. This is the impression they give us in the movies and the books.

It is a weapon of intimidation and oppression, it fields many troopers and vehicles to keep a planet of people in line.. its fighter compliment consists of multiple squadrons to be able to deal with different situations.. bombers, fighters, shuttles even..

How you can imagine this is accomplished in a 2 foot model, is beyond me..

Its the same way we manage to get the sense of wonder from tiny X-Wings. You get the rules right and it'll be fine but you have to get past how you feel about scale first, and that just a personal preference question.

Make me understand how your point is valid, dont just discout others view because you don't like it..

Also.. the game designers made it work.. with scale as an important part of it... why dont you understand that... the designers want scale to mean something as well... kind of invalidates your arguement

More than likely, per canon, an ISD couldn't bring more than a quarter of its guns to bear on a small target like the CR90.

Sorry but I don't buy that for a moment, the wedge shape and slopped sides mean you should be able to bring more then a quarter of the guns to bare on something even as small as a CR-90, unless it was at point blank range.

Which is you're going to go with the whole 'well it's far enough away to look that small' means it's not. And even a quarter of the ISD's guns still means 15 to 4. So no matter how you look at it, the ISD has to be either nerfed, or cost a great deal more points then the CR-90 does.

You get the rules right and it'll be fine

The rules can not account for a 15 to 4 advantage in guns, not at the same point value. That's just simple math and not something that can be handwaved away with the rules.

why dont you understand that... the designers want scale to mean something as well...

To me scale is a secondary issue. The firepower issue alone is reason enough to pick a different ship then a ISD.

But yes, scale does matter to FFG, and as such that is yet another strike against the ISD. Not to mention that it's not just up to FFG, anything they do has to be approved by LucasFilm and perhaps Disney.

Sorry, it still doesn't work... you can't make a ISD a small insignificant toy on the playing field... because that's what you guys are suggesting...

The presence of an ISD is supposed to strike fear in the eyes of the Empires enemies. This is the impression they give us in the movies and the books.

It is a weapon of intimidation and oppression, it fields many troopers and vehicles to keep a planet of people in line.. its fighter compliment consists of multiple squadrons to be able to deal with different situations.. bombers, fighters, shuttles even..

How you can imagine this is accomplished in a 2 foot model, is beyond me..

Its the same way we manage to get the sense of wonder from tiny X-Wings. You get the rules right and it'll be fine but you have to get past how you feel about scale first, and that just a personal preference question.

Why is it ... I ..... have to get over my sense of scale.. see that you make that part of your arguement means its a valid point.. and all the rest is about fanboys and how they want their ISD ... No matter what.. screw scale... screw firepower or any semblance os the realistic values there of... screw anyone that doesn't think like you... and that's just bad debate..

Make me understand how your point is valid, dont just discout others view because you don't like it..

Also.. the game designers made it work.. with scale as an important part of it... why dont you understand that... the designers want scale to mean something as well... kind of invalidates your arguement

I may have mispoken because I didn't intend to mean you personally have to get over scale. That's your preference.

What I was intending to do was push the scale argument the other way. You keep saying that people being OK with a 2 foot ISD is ridiculous. You keep pointing to how scale is important and they will continue to make it important. The designers have in fact proved that scale is ok until they decide to change it for practical reasons and game purposes and they've done it twice now with the Transport and the CR90. It actually validates that the scale is malleable with the larger ships.

The thread boils down to this over and over...

1. They won't make it because it won;t be to scale and they can't couldn't accurately portray the ISD

2. The will because they could just change the scale and they could accurately portray the ISD.

This entire thread has been people discounting the possibility that they will make and ISD because it won't be to scale and people THINK they can't fit the right kind of firepower into the ruleset per canon. What I've been trying to point out is other than the scale aspect, which is completely based on personal preference, the idea they can't fit the power of the ISD into the game seems to be based on preconceived notions of power of an ISD.

Take the following example of how you could split up the flight base fire arcs on the ISD. Each of those would bring the firepower of a single CR90 (personally I would drop one at the rear to show lack of guns around the engine). If you put that on a 2 foot base it mean at most you could bring 3 arcs to bear on a CR90 which would be considerable but in a way accurately portray the firepower the ISD could bring on a single target. While it isn't the 15-4 advantage that Vanor wants, X-Wing so far has appeared to not really care about actual gun count. It also mean you will be hard pressed to bring more than a single arc on a fighter which accurately shows the how much trouble a ISD had picking off fighters.

Please not that I'm not putting this out there as what FFG should do or will do. It's just an example of how you could start to encapsulate the ISD in the game. You could tweak the firepower, you could add more etc.

-Vanor, the only way an ISD could bring more than half its guns to bear on a CR90 would mean the CR90 was positioned directly in front and it could only fire half its guns broadside if the CR90 was directly broadside and not above or below the ship which would be difficult considering the CR90 was smaller and faster.

why dont you understand that... the designers want scale to mean something as well...

To me scale is a secondary issue. The firepower issue alone is reason enough to pick a different ship then a ISD.

But yes, scale does matter to FFG, and as such that is yet another strike against the ISD. Not to mention that it's not just up to FFG, anything they do has to be approved by LucasFilm and perhaps Disney.

Totally agree. I was addressing scale in my post and it is important to me. However, the firepower is as as out of whack as the scale issue.

why dont you understand that... the designers want scale to mean something as well...

To me scale is a secondary issue. The firepower issue alone is reason enough to pick a different ship then a ISD.

But yes, scale does matter to FFG, and as such that is yet another strike against the ISD. Not to mention that it's not just up to FFG, anything they do has to be approved by LucasFilm and perhaps Disney.

So if they get the firepower would you be okay with it?

1. They won't make it because it won;t be to scale and they can't couldn't accurately portray the ISD

2. The will because they could just change the scale and they could accurately portray the ISD.

Or... They could make a Vigil which looks a lot like the ISD, but is to scale already, and doesn't need any handwaving to make it work in this game.

I just can't see why anyone would be against that. It looks like a ISD, yet doesn't need it's own rule book to make it work in the game as it currently is.

1. They won't make it because it won;t be to scale and they can't couldn't accurately portray the ISD

2. The will because they could just change the scale and they could accurately portray the ISD.

Or... They could make a Vigil which looks a lot like the ISD, but is to scale already, and doesn't need any handwaving to make it work in this game.

I just can't see why anyone would be against that. It looks like a ISD, yet doesn't need it's own rule book to make it work in the game as it currently is.

Being for an ISD doesn't make me against the Vigil.

Being for an ISD doesn't make me against the Vigil.

Sure, but don't you agree that the Vigil is the better option? It's the correct size, it has the correct firepower, and has the correct look. Plus they could make it 16-18in long, which would keep the price down. So you have a model that works in every important way, and is cheaper. The only thing it lacks is the name.

It is simply the best choice. It gives everyone pretty much what they want. For those of us who care about scale, we get what we want. The Empire gets a more powerful cap ship, and one that has the classic dagger shape.

Being for an ISD doesn't make me against the Vigil.

Sure, but don't you agree that the Vigil is the better option? It's the correct size, it has the correct firepower, and has the correct look. Plus they could make it 16-18in long, which would keep the price down. So you have a model that works in every important way, and is cheaper. The only thing it lacks is the name.

It is simply the best choice. It gives everyone pretty much what they want. For those of us who care about scale, we get what we want. The Empire gets a more powerful cap ship, and one that has the classic dagger shape.

I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but personally I hate the way the Vigil looks. There are a lot of ships that fit the CR90 scale, none of which I would be against adding to the game. It's just that the original question of the thread was "So will we have a Star Destroyer in X-Wing?"

There are a lot of ships that fit the CR90 scale, none of which I would be against adding to the game.

Fair enough But the most common reply to "No the ISD breaks scale and other issues, so lets use this ship instead." is "But that doesn't have the dagger/wedge shape..."

Can people please stop suggesting that 1 A-wing managed to KO a SSD.

The fact that Ackbar clearly says "concentrate all firepower on that super star destroyer", its safe to assume that more was fired at the SSD than a couple of A-wings firing at the shield generators on the main command super structure.

Also thenA-wing crashing through the bridge window would of had nothing to do with the SSD crashing into the DS2. Want to know why? Military vessels have one main command bridge, and a secondary bridge (or more). Command and control is replicated between the bridges so that in the event of a failure in one, c&c would switch to one of the others.

Now with a crew of thousands, it is fair to say there were more than enough command staff to take over from the destroyed main bridge.

It would of been the combined fire of several rebel capital ships and concentrated starfighter strikes that ultimately crippled the SSD. It was the DS2's gravity that dragged the SSD down and ultimately finished it off.

Not a single A-wing crashing into the bridge.

Also ISD shrunk to fit on the table...bad idea. The weaponary output of an ISD versus anything available (or soon to be available), plus the significant starfighter support available to an ISD...yeah best left to off table support or massive "table" terrain.

Can people please stop suggesting that 1 A-wing managed to KO a SSD.

The fact that Ackbar clearly says "concentrate all firepower on that super star destroyer", its safe to assume that more was fired at the SSD than a couple of A-wings firing at the shield generators on the main command super structure.

Also thenA-wing crashing through the bridge window would of had nothing to do with the SSD crashing into the DS2. Want to know why? Military vessels have one main command bridge, and a secondary bridge (or more). Command and control is replicated between the bridges so that in the event of a failure in one, c&c would switch to one of the others.

Now with a crew of thousands, it is fair to say there were more than enough command staff to take over from the destroyed main bridge.

It would of been the combined fire of several rebel capital ships and concentrated starfighter strikes that ultimately crippled the SSD. It was the DS2's gravity that dragged the SSD down and ultimately finished it off.

Not a single A-wing crashing into the bridge.

Also ISD shrunk to fit on the table...bad idea. The weaponary output of an ISD versus anything available (or soon to be available), plus the significant starfighter support available to an ISD...yeah best left to off table support or massive "table" terrain.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor