Since I got Knigsport me an my borther have bee playing around 10 games and we only won once. On some of them we played with heralds, so in the later games we played with no herald and we played with a guaridan. My brother plays 3 characters and I play 2. We have and play with all expansions except KiY (hopefully we'll get it soon) and we always lose. Even against easy Ancient Ones, and even in the final battles (we play with epic battle cards). Our game stye is pretty standard: Collect clues, seal gates, if kingpost starts to threaten us one investigator hangs out there for most of the game, and when dunwich becomes an issue one investigator goes there and clears it. But 99% of the games the following happens: Either there are too many gates or the doom track fills. Then we have to fight the Ancient One and we always lose. The single victory I was talking about? It was against Altcha-Natcha and Ghroth. You might think "wow, that's a tough combination, so maybe you are a good player". Think again. We had incredible luck against her. There were many gate surges and not one gate burst on us. We finished the game in a closing victory and we even had 5 seals on the board. Furthermore, not a single mysitc was draws that game. So yeah, that isn't an example. We mostly lose. Any tips guys?

kroen said:

Before I got DH, doom track was the main waker of GOOs (granted, those were my early games). After adding DH, too many gates became the norm, just seemed so easy to miss a gate or two in Dunwich, then suddenly notice them and then it was too late . Nowadays (esp. with BGotW Herald), doom track is back. Too many gates seems to happen only when I get 2+ "a gate and a monster appears" in a game. My strat (4 investigators) is fairly similar to yours. First turn is always, if possible, the shopping turn, after that, go after Clues and then gates. I don't do designated roles (gate closer, street sweeper, etc.), everyone chips in at everything. Before adding KiY and BGotW, I tended to send in someone around turn 4, which nowadays seems like too long to wait and probably resulted in few of the too many gates final combats. Nowadays, turn 2 if possible (someone started with 3+ Clues and instead of shopping, could reach a 2+ Clue location), turn 3 at the latest, even if not enough Clues to seal, just enter a low-priority gate instead of a high one. Getting that one gate trophy doesn't hurt.

I understand you don't have Kingsport, which makes the game dramatically harder. It makes the game until the ancient one awakes about x1.5 times harder than just base game+dunwich (and other small expansions), and the final battle is about x3 harder with epic battle cards as it is without. Btw, are you actually winning against the BGotW? If not, then you may want to cosndier not playing with him. He's the hardest herald.

There's all sorts of things you can do, but rather than trying to learn them all from written advice in this thread I have an easier way:

Stop playing with all possible expansions for a few games. Try one at a time, and if you feel like you have things under control start adding more. As you mentioned, part of what makes things harder is having so much going on at once. From this and your other posts it sounds like you have only had the game a short time, but that you play constantly. There's no reason not to back off and keep it simple for a little while so you can isolate your issues. You'll be back to full throttle in a few days (and with a much better handle on the game).

Also think about using 4 investigators instead of 5 for a game or two and see if that helps. 4 is the most you can have without double monster spawns which may be a boon if that is causing some of your problem. Good luck and let us know!

Actually I don't get double monster spawn with 5 players, as there's a rule that with playing with 2 board expansions the number of players is conisreded to be 1 less for all purposes other than final battle.

And I have been playing this+DH+DP for over a year and I got things pretty much under control; I won most of the time, then I added BGotW and pretty much lost against the herald but won without it. Then I added KH and that's when the losing spree started.

One thing I try to do as soon as I can is to become the Deputy and/or Captain of the White Ship. Being able to hop around the boards is incredibly helpful. Acquiring useful spells such as Find Gate can be good too, though maybe not as easy to accomplish if you have a lot of expansions. Other than that it's really all down to the luck of the draw.

A lot of strategy depends on who the AO and herald are, nevertheless, in general, we play with all expansions except Kingsport and CotDP, and win I'd say about 60-70% of the time. Usually with anywhere between 3-5 investigators.

In general: close uncommon gates as soon as you can. Twilight, Historical, Hibs, Science most Dunwich gates. In all likelihood these wont reopen, and will help you from awakening the AO with too many gates. Seal the common gates and intermidiate gates if possible. If not, generally wait until you can. I would never dive to close like Witch House or Unvisited Isle unless the circumstances were very dire indeed. Chances are they will re-open and add doom.

Stop other sources of doom if at all possible, like DH, rifts, etc. In general, avoid encounters at the major gate locations (Unvisited Isle, Witch House, Independence, Woods) to lessen the chances of getting the A Gate and a Monster Appear! encounter, adding a doom and a gate, which is bad news. Several investigators, Darell Simmons, Kate Winthrop, Wilson Richards have abilities that lets them go ahead and basically go there to pick up clues or whatever without much threat of a Gate and Monster. Use these abilities if you can.

Most games we will use at least 1 elder sign, doom removal is tough to get, Elder Signs can help a lot. Buy one if it comes up.

If things really look grim, prepare for final combat. Some combats, you just probably aren't going to win... A-N, Yog-Sototh, Tsothogga.. Some you can. To better your chances get weapons, sanity/stam back (especially sanity for casting), get a blessing, or pick up an ally that will help in the fight. Tom Murphy, Upton-Pickman and Armitage can all be useful (Fight for murphy, the other two can ignore phys/maj resistance if the AO has it).

Trade lots. Try to get investigators with stuff that is best for them. Example: a grusome Talisman is great for all characters, but is probably best on Monterey Jack, Mark Harrigan, or Michael McGlen. Trading equipment helps so much, even if it's just "hey, you go first, take my gun and go kill that monster for me, I'll grab my gun back as I pass you.. but taking out that monster lets me get into a gate easily this turn."

You said so yourself: You don't play with Kingsport. Before I had Kingsport I won 90% of the time. Only when I got it the losing spree begun.

kroen said:

kroen said:

I was playing 3 investigators (and usually winning) prior to Kingsport. When Kingsport came out I had to add in another investigator just so I could manage the rifts. I've eventually figured out how to deal with them better though, and they tend not to be much of an issue. I'd imagine our strategies would have to be a bit different since 3 players have a shot at final battle, five players, not so much. And your gate limit is lower... Hrm... I think what I'd do if I were you is put one investigator on immediate clue gathering duty on turn one. Have everyone else congregate at the unique item shop (except against someone like Y'golonac) in hope of getting items that give clues, or elder signs. Don't waste money on overpowered stuff like the Sword of Glory— the cost is too high to justify the purchase unless you're absolutely desperate for a unique weapon— if I had a choice between that and a spellbook I'd choose a spellbook). As far as I'm concerned, the primary purpose of the unique item shop is Elder Signs and KiYs. Of course, there are a few other reasons one might shop there ;')

Managing clues: don't let a high frequency gate location build up more than two clues *ever* in fact, in recent games I've started immediately targetting high frequency gates with one clue on them asap just because if you don't do that fast there's a high chance you'll end up losing 3-4 clues from the board through gates. True, you might get someone sucked into a gate, but I think it's worth it probabilistically speaking. With five players, you can afford that.

As for Kingsport... You don't actually need an entire investigator to keep it under control. In fact, you don't even need to keep it under control (if you're playing a tight game, you can afford to let one of the rifts open— yeah, it's not great to have one, it'll probably add two doom tokens (one every six turns on average), but if only one comes out, you'll still have time to beat the game— probably— lets face it, double doom token cards hurt too. Nevertheless, for the purposes of not taking that risk, I wouldn't say ignore Kingsport *entirely* Keep in mind rift tokens can't appear on tracks that are already full, so to keep the risk down, let two rift tokens appear on each of three separate tracks (just make sure the other side of those tracks do not get half full— because then you're playing one out of six Arkham Roulette, and you're bound to lose, don't leave a track like that for more than a turn or two, unless you're prepared for the rift to burst). Don't bother to try and banish a Rift once it's out on the board, you're better off just keeping the other rifts from opening. And remember, early in the game, ignore the rift tracks (unless one looks dangerously close to opening). Late in the game if you're pressed for time, abandon them, you'll have a pretty good chance of being able to get off one seal with that investigator before the doom track is filled. Also, if your investigator in Kingsport gets five clues (or even three— from there it's not a far distance to the science building), it's time to swap him out with a different investigator. Get someone else to manage the rifts, and go for a seal. Also, you might not want to seal low frequency gates, just go for ASAP closes. It's a bit risky, but it will reduce your chances of being swamped by too many gates opening.

Um... Those are the best pieces of advice I can think of. Don't waste time standing around. Shop. Get clues. Close. Seal. Get an ally (maybe). Get money. Shop. That's Arkham for you...

Oh yeah and ::laughter:: don't try to get The Great Seal, you might as well just play one less character ;'D

Also, since you're playing a large team, you should definitely be doing alot of your hunting at the Newspaper and the Curiosity Shop. Your characters should mostly have retainers and should be rolling in money (being able to hunt for unique items is a very important ability).

Thanks for the advices. And the great seal actually protected a gate burst at the woods once, and the extra clue per turn was too very useful.

I have a question: Isn't it better to actually seal low frequency locations? High frequency locations can burst, and it's never a pretty sight...

Kroen, believe me, I've been there! My group of four had absolutely MASTERED Arkham and Dunwich. Then we added in Kingsport, and we lost the next seven games in a row! When we finally won one it was against Ithaqua, one of our characters was Michael McGlen, and he kept his Tommy gun for the Final Battle Oh, and McGlen was the only survivor.

Much of the advice already given is good. As has been pointed out, don't try to remove every rift token, since solid rows won't add a rift token when that combination comes up. We try to leave one solid row for each rift and only attend to the second row. It is risky to let a rift open, but we've had it happen sometimes and still won. I disagree that you should never try to seal a rift, especially if you have a character with no clue tokens, but your first priority is definitely to prevent a second Rift from opening rather than to seal the first one. I'm uncertain about the idea of letting a rift open; we've had games where no harm has been done by an open rift, and other games we've lost because of one.

Don't use any Heralds until you manage to get things under control, but use a Guardian every game.

Make sure to spend your money, aside from perhaps saving a couple of dollars for each Investigator. Avoid the General Store unless your AO is Physically Resistant, and avoid the Magic Shoppe unless you're facing Y'golonac. From now on almost all of your shopping should take place at the Curiousity Shoppe. You need as many Elder Signs as you can lay hands on; that's your first priority. If the Fire of Ashurbanipaal or the Mi-Go Braincase comes up, grab them! Both items are immensely useful! The King in Yellow and Ancient Tablet are also important to pick up, of course., and the Warding Statue's usefulness has doubled with the advent of the Sinister Plot cards. .

Keep in mind that with the additions of Kinsports monsters, monsters on average have become significantly more formidible. Sneak past them whenever possible, fighting only when you must. Don't hesitate to use Nightguants to get into the nearest gate, perhaps summoning them with the flare gun and then trying to evade one when you know you have no chance of making the roll; that'll save you the Sanity from the Horror check.

My brother advises you to get Wendy and make use of her gate-sealing skills; I can't really argue with that, but I assume you draw Investigators randomly?

You need to get people in the other worlds to seal FAST, even if it means temporarily giving the guy with five clue tokens someone else's prize weapons. Don't hesitate to jump in a gate with only the Disguise Skill or Mists of R'yleh; either should be enough to see you through any monster encounters. As for rare gates being safe to close, don't count on it! I've had both the Science Building, the Historical Society and the Devil's Hopyard open on me again after I closed them. Then, too, remember this: there are NO Gate Bursts for rare locations! On the other hand, the way we've had the AO wake up the most has definitely been too many open gates; that will be your greatest problem.

One poster here has talked about grabbing the clue tokens off high-frequency gate locations. In general, unless we have Kate Winthrop or Darell, or the Investigator ALREADY has four clue tokens, we do NOT do that. First, having an encounter where a gate and a monster appears can very easily lose you the game, and the high-frequency locations have the highest number of those encounters. Second, if you go to such a location without having five clue tokens, and then a gate naturally opens there in the Mythos phase, you're going to waste a lot of time in the Other Worlds and not even have the Clues to seal when you finally make it back!

If a final battle looks inevitable, start making prepartions to handle it. Get as many Investigators Blessed as you can; that's vital. Heal Sanity and Stamina when possible, and when the fight starts, distribute the weapons to the Investigators who can make best use of them and will live the longest. Consider getting appropriate Allies from Ma's if you can. This assumes, of course, that you have half a chance of winning the final fight; if you're up against Azathoth, the Big T, or Atlach-Nacha, then just prepare yourself for death.

Watch Dunwich! Aside from waking up the Horror, monsters moving there can also really put the Terror Level through the roof. And when we lose due to too many open gates, usually at least a couple of them are in Dunwich.

The primary use of gate and monster trophies should be to get Clues at the Science Building. Now more than ever time is your enemy; you need to get those six seals as soon as possible, before one of them bursts.

Another thing to keep in mind: Kingsport was VERY generous with the new Arkham encounters. I've seen Kingsport encounters at the Science Building, Magic Shoppe, Curiousity Shoppe and Inner Sanctum which can bring enormous benefits! I don't say you should hang out at these places waiting for such encounters, but if Hypnos puts a clue at such a location, hit it immediately while you can still draw two Encounter cards and pick the one you want.

That's about it for now. Let us know how this advice works out!

Thanks, I'll try that, although I have another problem that can't be fixed: My brother is quite selfish Can't say he's not the reason for some losses...

kroen said:

::Blink blink::

No. Never. Just assume one of your gates will burst over the course of the game. Big deal. You're *much* better off being able to keep the monster surges under control. Otherwise you'll lose the shops too early (and some important allies). Oh yeah, and you'll have a town swarming with monsters ;') that's a problem too sometimes.

Solan said:

Don't play guardians. :'P

Blah!

But anyways, I wanted to respond to this point in particular. I used to do the same and avoid encounters at the high frequencies because you might have a gate open on you; nevertheless, do it. There is risk involved, but it is a calculated risk. Overall (in your win/loss totals) you will be better getting an extra 3-4 clue tokens because you took a small risk. Lets face it, 3-4 extra clues is a *big* deal. It's practically another gate that you'll be able to seal early on. Don't let those clues disappear just because you're scared. Sometimes you'll get screwed, but that's just the nature of the game. Play the odds, don't let the odds play you :')

kroen said:

Wait, you guys don't share equipment? I took that for granted. Of course you want to maximize your team's powers by trading stuff to have optimal abilities for fighting, sealing, and shopping.

I'm always up to give him stuff he needs and I don't, but I can't say the same for him. For instance: I had a character in the train station with 5 clues ready to seal a gate but with no weapons, and one of my brother's characters went right past me on his way to kingsport to handle the rifts and he had an elephant gun and didn't gave it to me

kroen said:

Heh... I realize this isn't the spirit that he did it in, but actually he'd be better off pawning it in Kingsport ;') elephant gun should be renamed White Elephant Gun.

kroen said:

Dam said:

I'd like to know why you feel this way. Avi already posted some points. Only things I can think of are the KH Mythos cards, but 22 cards into the already 171 card deck, odds of drawing one are rare (rare in the sense that you shouldn't get that many KH Mythos cards, at least not enough to increase diff by 1.5). Other point might be KH monsters, but again, there are plenty of monsters in the cup already. KH board itself, 0 unstable locations, that's all I'll say about that.

kroen said:

EDIT: Can I add just how much I hate these editing/quoting options.

Sigh... it's not x1.5 harder because of the mythos cards or the monsters... it's x1.5 harder because of the rifts which are always active, no matter how many mythos cards you have in the deck.

Avi_dreader said:

Avi, is "Blah" the full extent of your argument for not playing with the Guardians? Some brilliant insight there:).

Seriously, though, I think you're misunderstanding me or just missing what I'm saying. Let me restate it: In general, you don't pick up Clue tokens on high-frequency gates UNLESS doing so will put that Investigator up to five or more Clue tokens. Otherwise the combined risk of A. Getting an "a gate and a monster appears" encounter or B. Having a gate open there during the Mythos phase naturally before you can escape is simply too great.

Kroen, what you're talking about in regards to your brother sounds like a VERY serious handicap. If the Investigators want to win, they have to take a page from the Borg: Be concerned only with the good of the Collective. Don't hesitate to sacrifice individuals when necessary. In the last fight against Abhoth, for example, my two Investigators were better able to damage him, so my partner gave all his Items to my guys. Both of his characters died, but we still won. If he'd been selfish, we all would have died and Abhoth would have won.

Maybe you can have a talk with your brother about doing things for the good of the team? How old is he?

kroen said:

Avi already covered the point of rifts. Or more correctly, gave different views to your views on them.

Also, didn't you write that you and your brother play with 3+2 investigators? With 1 getting the shaft aka garbage duty in KH, it's the same as playing with 4 investigators (which I do).

KH GOOs (at least Atlach, not sure about the others) I'll give you add difficulty. But since I play full rotations, I'd only see 1 every 4 games currently.

Solan said:

No, I'm not misunderstanding your point ;') I used to play it the same way— until I realized that I ended up wasting 3-5 clues (I forgot about occasions when a second clue is added to one of the locations) a game because I was too risk averse. Generally speaking, it's a risk worth taking (although I'll admit I'd rather send an investigator with four/five clues just in case the gate opens).

Yes. Blah is my argument :')

Seriously, it's an aesthetic issue. If you think Arkham should be all about having a soft and easy game ;') go ahead and play your pretty wittle guardians. But if you think the point of Arkham is to have your brain melt and drip out of your nose, then JOIN ME IN INSANITY! EHEHEHEHAHAHAHHAAHA!

Yep... I'd say Kingsport makes the game maybe 1.2-1.3 times harder (well, maybe 1.4-1.5 if you add in heralds and count final battles). But sealing victories aren't *that* much harder... doom tracks are basically shortened by 1-2 each game because of kingsport (if you're playing a small team). If you're playing a larger team, it's not such a big deal to have someone keep the tracks under control.

Your major problem seems to be your partner... to win, you definitly need to work as a team. Most tactics don't work without that.

Speaking of tactics: Try to work on each others handicaps. Richard Wilson starts with a motorcycle, but since he's got 4 speed anyway, there might be another investigator who needs it more that he does.

Don't use clue tokens in item form if you don't really need them. Research Materials don't seem to be much, but if you got an investigator returning from enogher world and he posesses 4 clue tokens, combined with speedy delivery guy it might save the game. Same goes for books: If an investigator is sucked into another world with an insufficient number of clue tokens, try to shop for a tome.

Focus, Focus... get a task in mind and stick to it... plus luck and alot of dice help to