Hi,

I was reading up on Force Move and I am stuck wondering what extra successes on the discipline check equal. I have gathered that, since the text states that the check follows all the same rules for ranged combat, advantage covers the autofire quality for throwing multiple objects, but beyond that, what else?

Do successes add damage, as they would with an improvised weapon?

Is there a possibility to crit with a Force-Moved item, such as with an improvised weapon (AAAAA=crit)?

I guess my question arises from two things, that I can not see the difference between an object hurled by the force and an improvised weapon, and that the control text states that the discipline check follows all the rules on ranged combat.

Thanks

I don't have the CRB on hand, but I think those numbers listed are base damages. That'd mean Success is added to damage. My understanding is that a silhouette zero object should be about on par with a pistol.

Just my recollection of a book I don't have on hand though.

Dbuntu is basically correct. Extra Successes are used to do more damage. Advantage can be used to crit or trigger other stuff as per any combat skill test.

To do an auto-fire-like effect you would need to be able to move multiple objects in the first place. That would require some Magnitude upgrades to Move, and enough light side pips to activate the Magnitude upgrade. It would be better to treat multiple objects like the linked quality rather than auto-fire as there is no upgrade to the difficulty of hitting, and you are limited in your extra hits by the number of objects thrown.

Given that hurling size 0 objects (including super models) doesn't do any base damage you probably want to activate some Strength upgrades as well. That means at least two light side pips to do a useful damaging Move. If you wanted to throw two size 1 objects you would need to spend 4 light side pips (1 for base Move + 1 for magnitude upgrade +1 for Strength for the first object + 1 for the Strength upgrade for the second). That's a tough roll even with Force Rating 3.

Move can be an impressive damage dealer, but it takes a hefty investment to make it useful.

"The damage is resolved following all the rules for ranged attacks. Silhouette 0 objects deal 5 damage, while other objects deal damage equal to 10 times their silhouette." That is the only part of the control text that deals with damage numbers. The rest deals with the combined check, the number of objects, number of targets, and the autofire quality.

So, I'm not sure. The text sounds like an object only does that indicated amount of damage, but the "following all the rules for ranged attacks" bit makes me wonder if they are base damages. What more indicates this is that there is otherwise nothing to do with excess success and advantage (beyond autofire).

Aservan,

Are you sure that silhouette 0 objects would do 0 damage, they have a listing of 5 damage. Also, are you sure that you need to strength upgrade per object? I have not seen anything that indicates that it is on a per object basis. I was under the impression that magnitude covered that investment.

What is the linked quality?

Critting should be fine with improvised weapons' rules.

Silhouette 0 does 5 base damage, everything else is silhouette*10; and then yes, the successes that add to the base damage.

Strength is just required once per time you activate the base power. Upgrades apply to everything being used in a single activation of the power (the same base power can be activated multiple times in a single action).

Example: So let's say you want to throw 2 silhouette 2 objects as weapons - we'll keep it at short range. You need one pip to activate the base power, and another pip to use a magnitude upgrade; this lets you lift 2 objects. Then you activate your 2 strength upgrades with one force pip (or two pips if you only have 1 strength upgrade) which applies to all items being lifted. If you don't have the magnitude upgrade, then you'd need to activate the base power again, which means you'd need a total of 2 pips for activating (the first and second time) and 2-4 pips for strength upgrades (upgrading the size for the first use of the power, and then again for the second use of the power - and again, this is dependent on if you have either 1 or 2 strength upgrades).

Linked is pretty much just for vehicle weapons. Basically you can stack the same weapon together to increase the linked trait (or how many times it can be fired again), and this gives a weapon a limited auto-fire, which does not need the increased difficulty when firing.

Thanks Lathrop!

The pip use you described is how I understood the rule to read. I am surprised but excited that the consensus seems to so far be that these damage amounts are base damage and that you can crit. This really lends more power to silhouette 0 and 1 objects, which is where I somewhat figure my character will be limited to for a while (once I get there).

Aservan,

Are you sure that silhouette 0 objects would do 0 damage, they have a listing of 5 damage. Also, are you sure that you need to strength upgrade per object? I have not seen anything that indicates that it is on a per object basis. I was under the impression that magnitude covered that investment.

What is the linked quality?

You are probably correct that Silhouette 0 objects do 5 base damage. I don't have my book in front of me. I only remembered the 10 x Sil damage and 10x0=0. Even 5 base is pretty crappy as by they time you can reliably chuck stuff with the force enemies will probably have around 4 soak. 1 point + successes isn't a lot of damage compared to a blaster doing 6-10 base and that doesn't require a force check.

I am fairly certain that you need to upgrade strength per object thrown. There are other posts explaining it (I think Donovan wrote most of them). Assuming you can get enough light side pips you can do some pretty amazing thing with only a few upgrades. Upgrades just make it easier to do impressive things.

The real trick with the force is getting all those light side pips to do the truly hoopty stuff. To keep players interested in using Force powers I would suggest letting them be nebulous about intentions before they roll the force check.

So, "I activate Move", roll and only get two pips. With only two pips I hurl the guy himself rather than the speeder I wanted. Otherwise you'll have people saying, "I chuck the speeder at the stormtrooper. Crap only two pips! Not enough. Oh well, I guess I do nothing this round."

Some will like the idea of do or die mechanics, but in my experience this makes force powers lack-luster. People will only attempt the things they know they can accomplish rather than truly spectacular uses. There should be some fist pumping when you roll four light side on two dice. People shouldn't feel they are "wasting" light side pips.

Linked is normally used with Vehicle mounted weapons. A linked weapon can spend two advantage to get an extra hit but only up to the value of linked. So an X-wing has Linked 3 on it's laser cannons. With six advantage it could hit 4 times, but no more.

I've taken it to mean that each upgrade group activated applies for that particular application of the basic Power, especially since activating a basic Power counts as an Action (and you can only take one Action per round).

So if you spent a pip on Move Basic Power, and then another pip to activate Magnitude, your Strength upgrades (if paid for with another pip) should work on all gear under the power's present purview.

I've taken it to mean that each upgrade group activated applies for that particular application of the basic Power, especially since activating a basic Power counts as an Action (and you can only take one Action per round).

So if you spent a pip on Move Basic Power, and then another pip to activate Magnitude, your Strength upgrades (if paid for with another pip) should work on all gear under the power's present purview.

Same here.

Although, if the design intent was that Range and Strength Upgrades have to be activated individually for each instance of Magnitude, that would cut down on the potential power of Force users with higher Force Ratings (4 or higher) quite a bit. If nothing else, it might be worth keeping in mind as a potential house rule for those GMs that find Force users to be far too powerful in their games.

Regarding the damage of Silhouette 0 objects, also remember that the Force user, by default, isn't rolling any difficulty dice. The difficulty for the Discipline check to attack using Move is based on the object's size, and the power doesn't cite a minimum difficultly level.

Since a dedicated Force user PC is going to have at least a Willpower of 3 and at least 1 rank in Discipline, any successes they get are going to be counted towards damage. And as the Force user increases their Discipline (easy enough to make it a career skill with a simple 5 XP talent), they'll have greater chances of rolling even more successes. And the Force user could simply activate the Magnitude Upgrade to attack a minion group multiple times, treating the attack almost like auto-fire, but again with no difficulty dice for using Silhouette 0 objects, with each object getting the benefit of any successes rolled. With a really good roll, the Force user could possibly wipe out an entire minion group in one round.

...And the Force user could simply activate the Magnitude Upgrade to attack a minion group multiple times, treating the attack almost like auto-fire, but again with no difficulty dice for using Silhouette 0 objects, with each object getting the benefit of any successes rolled.

Sounds like the Bespin scene from ESB, where Vader beats the crap out of Luke using surrounding objects.

I agree with Shakespeare and Donovan's reading. However, as I read the autofire quality, it upgrades the difficulty dice. Therefore, multiple silhouette 0 objects have a difficulty of 1 purple. 2 Advantage is also needed to activate it. I believe it is 2 advantage per extra attack, but I may have read that wrong. This applies a natural limitation to the magnitude (again, if I read that right), of needing up to 8 advantage for a full barrage of 5 objects. Even with difficulty 1, that is a tall order.

...And the Force user could simply activate the Magnitude Upgrade to attack a minion group multiple times, treating the attack almost like auto-fire, but again with no difficulty dice for using Silhouette 0 objects, with each object getting the benefit of any successes rolled.

Sounds like the Bespin scene from ESB, where Vader beats the crap out of Luke using surrounding objects.

Pretty much.

And it'd be a perfect example of Vader willingly using smaller objects so as to batter Luke (who likely had some defensive talents and abilities going to add at least some difficulty/challenge dice to the pool) and wear the boy down. Vader likely could have gone for the kill at any time, but instead wanted to break Luke's will and thus make him susceptible to temptation.

...

Well, I wasn't sure if the autofire quality was just for attacking multiple targets, or if it was also for attacking one target multiple times. It is listed as a quality in the control text of force move on CRB p 284.

Move can actually be auto-fired, and does in fact follow all rules required for auto-fire (increased difficulty, 2 advantages to trigger each). Magnitude upgrades simply give the user more opportunities to throw more objects when using Move as an attack, providing a harder limit on how much Move can be auto-fired than a typical auto-fire gun - it's not just an open license to toss as much as you want at somebody.