Before making a non-thrown ranged attack, as a maneuver increase the weapon’s range by up to 1 band per rank. Upgrade the attack’s difficulty by 1 per range increase.

Is it just me or does this talent seem a bit mean?

15 or 20 points buys you a range bump at increased difficulty and the use of your manoeuvre. So shooting a carbine (Max.Range Medium) at Long range is difficulty 4, and you can't Aim (unless you spend 2 Strain) because it's a manoeuvre to activate it.

Upgrade to Difficulty is not the same as an Increase to Difficulty. Firing a carbine at Long (requiring Sniper Shot 1) has a base Difficulty of RPP (or just RP with a telescopic sight).

Completely missed that. Ta!

(Though I'm even less likely to use this now. )

Upgrade to Difficulty is not the same as an Increase to Difficulty. Firing a carbine at Long (requiring Sniper Shot 1) has a base Difficulty of RPP (or just RP with a telescopic sight).

Just for reference, there is a box at the top of page 22 of the CRB that explains the difference

The more I think about it, the less play this talent gets.

Most of our combat encounters take place at Medium range at most - not the game's fault, just happenstance (though I doubt I'm alone, here). A character using their manoeuvre to reduce the range to their target is a much better way to get the shot (no difficulty upgrade either - difficulty reduced).

The talent's advantages seem limited - keeping outside your enemy's range (but this only forces them to close with you, denying them aim but giving them an easier shot), or in the very rare circumstance of you not being able to approach them. I don't mind talents like that existing, but I'd prefer them being priced accordingly (value = potency of effect * frequency of usefulness).

Just for reference, there is a box at the top of page 22 of the CRB that explains the difference

I understand the difference, I just seem to have misread this talent every single time I looked at it.

Little embarrassing, that.

Col. Orange, the best use of this weapon is for a player, like and assassin, who wants to sit back in the Extreme range band and pick of targets for the group. Basically, let's say in the Escape from Moss Shutta game, if one player climbs on the rooftop of a single building and just supports the group from there. It allows the player to use a weapon, like the Blaster Rifle in an extreme range band, without be affected by Cumbersome (which may not be an issue if you have 2STR), but if you've got something like a Bothan, Droid or Twi'lek Assassin, who's got 1BRA, the trade-off is upgrading the difficulty by 1 (CAAA) for Extreme Range, or dealing purchasing a more expensive weapon, in the E11 Sniper (the only weapon that isn't Gunnery and can hit at Extreme Range) and having to roll with +2 difficulty dice due to cumbersome 3 on the Sniper Rifle (DDDDDD). It's a trade-off game and very, very situational, much like the discussed use of Barrage. Not every PC will benefit from this talents use.

Someone wanting to use a disruptor pistol or hold out blaster might get more play out of this talent.

Col. Orange, the best use of this weapon is for a player, like and assassin, who wants to sit back in the Extreme range band and pick of targets for the group. Basically, let's say in the Escape from Moss Shutta game, if one player climbs on the rooftop of a single building and just supports the group from there. It allows the player to use a weapon, like the Blaster Rifle in an extreme range band, without be affected by Cumbersome (which may not be an issue if you have 2STR), but if you've got something like a Bothan, Droid or Twi'lek Assassin, who's got 1 BRA, the trade-off is upgrading the difficulty by 1 (CAAA) for Extreme Range, or dealing purchasing a more expensive weapon, in the E11 Sniper (the only weapon that isn't Gunnery and can hit at Extreme Range) and having to roll with +2 difficulty dice due to cumbersome 3 on the Sniper Rifle (DDDDDD). It's a trade-off game and very, very situational, much like the discussed use of Barrage. Not every PC will benefit from this talents use.

I see the intended function, it just doesn't seem effective enough, especially given it's cost.

Average soldier with a Rifle + Sniper Shot Aims and plugs away at Extreme range: YY G B + R PPP

Average enemy soldier sees his buddy get taken out. Moves to Long and takes a shot: YY G + PPP

(Gaining a Boost die isn't nearly as good as getting rid of a Challenge die. Enemy soldier's got a much better chance of succeeding (and doing more damage) and hasn't spent 15 or 20 points to do so, and won't run out of ammo like the sniper could.)

It's a great idea for a talent, it just doesn't seem particularly well designed, to me.

Someone wanting to use a disruptor pistol or hold out blaster might get more play out of this talent.

But they'd have even less reason to worry about getting close than the rifle guy.

Average soldier with a Rifle + Sniper Shot Aims and plugs away at Extreme range: YY G B + R PPP

Average enemy soldier sees his buddy get taken out. Moves to Long and takes a shot: YY G + PPP

(Enemy soldier's got a much better chance of succeeding (and doing more damage) and hasn't spent 15 or 20 points to do so, and won't run out.)

It takes 2 maneuvers to move from Long to Extreme, so if the enemy solider wishes to close the gap, he'll either burn strain to do so, or if its a minion, it simply must use 2 turns. So, if my PC is sitting Prone and Extreme Range, an enemy Soldier won't be able to shoot me for two turns. On the third turn, he'll need to fire DDD+S and at which point, I can fire DDD+BB after firing off two shots while he was trying to close the gap. The talent's not for everyone, but it has its uses for players that one to stay very far away and snipe.

I find use with this one my Droid Assassin/Gadgeteer where I can put other modifications onto a Blaster Rifle, rather than Marksman Barrel, which makes the gun Cumbersome 2. And, if I put a Telescopic Optical Sight, it negates the effect of the Sniper Shot use. So, you can shoot at extreme range, without any added difficulty dice due to a Cumbersome rating (for low BRA PCs) or have it affected by Sniper Shot's Challenge die.

Another fun use is using a Spread Barrel, Telescopic Sight and Sniper Shot to shoot Blast Damage from long range (better use with a Mercenary Soldier), which is just plain mean...

Those two weapons are maxed at short range, so their utility is kind of limited. Sniper shot would let them take a longer shot without having to move.

Well, what if there is no way to close in on the target because say a bottomless pit is in the way? Also, the sniper shooting at extreme range could eliminate one of those guys before they could even shoot at him, even if they knew he was there. Then there's one left, sure that one individual can move closer, but prevents aiming.

Or; see MosesofWar's post.

Those two weapons are maxed at short range, so their utility is kind of limited. Sniper shot would let them take a longer shot without having to move.

I understand this to be the case, but you'd still be much better off closing the range.

I will say this, it is of limited utility. Very much like barrage, with the upside for sniper shot being it doesn't chew up as many talent slots in a tree.

It takes 2 maneuvers to move from Long to Extreme, so if the enemy solider wishes to close the gap, he'll either burn strain to do so, or if its a minion, it simply must use 2 turns.

So, if my PC is sitting Prone and Extreme Range, an enemy Soldier won't be able to shoot me for two turns, and on the third turn, he'll need to fire DDD+S and at which point, I can fire DDD+BB after firing off two shots while he was trying to close the gap. The talent's not for everyone, but it has its uses for players that one to stay very far away and snipe.

That's solid. Though wouldn't you only get one shot before your enemy was in range (move manoeuvre, action becomes another move manoeuvre = Long range)?

Those two weapons are maxed at short range, so their utility is kind of limited. Sniper shot would let them take a longer shot without having to move.

I understand this to be the case, but you'd still be much better off closing the range.

For example...

Col. Orange stares up at the utility speeder as it slowly pulls away. Dr. Sticky Fingers leans out the door and doffs his transfedora with a snide smile and cackles......."Once again Col. Orange we find there is nothing that you possess which I cannot take away, to your health my friend...muhahahahahhaha!"

Col. Orange slides out his last option, his snub blaster from his concealed vest pocket, and carefully lines up on Sticky Fingers.....a deep breath.........exhale.........squeeze the trigger. Sticky Fingers head snaps and Col. Orange catches the astonished look on his face, along with the smouldering hole in Sticky Fingers forehead just before he crumples and plunges out the speeder's open door.

Col. Orange slowly puts his blaster away and smiles a thin satisfied smirk. The whisky will taste better tonight....time for a new arch nemesis also...............

Something like that.....

I will say this, it is of limited utility. Very much like barrage, with the upside for sniper shot being it doesn't chew up as many talent slots in a tree.

I like this a lot. The "limited utility" vs. it's significant cost still bugs me. (And "doesn't chew up as many talent slots" seems like damning with faint praise! )

For example...

Col. Orange stares up at the utility speeder as it slowly pulls away. Dr. Sticky Fingers leans out the door and doffs his transfedora with a snide smile and cackles......."Once again Col. Orange we find there is nothing that you possess which I cannot take away, to your health my friend...muhahahahahhaha!"

Col. Orange slides out his last option, his snub blaster from his concealed vest pocket, and carefully lines up on Sticky Fingers.....a deep breath.........exhale.........squeeze the trigger. Sticky Fingers head snaps and Col. Orange catches the astonished look on his face, along with the smouldering hole in Sticky Fingers forehead just before he crumples and plunges out the speeder's open door.

Col. Orange slowly puts his blaster away and smiles a thin satisfied smirk. The whisky will taste better tonight....time for a new arch nemesis also...............

Something like that.....

I'LL KILL YOU STICKY!!

Under-barrel Grenade Launcher + Sniper Shot = Long range BOOM

That's solid. Though wouldn't you only get one shot before your enemy was in range (move manoeuvre, action becomes another move manoeuvre = Long range)?

Only in the case of Rivals and Nemesis. Minions don't have strain.

In any case, forcing a Rival to suffer strain to close the gap on on the Sniper is worthwhile as well, as they've low ST.

Nemesis are a little different and can easily close the gap, but he's walking straight into the line of fire and has to make a Long Shot with a Setback, compared to the Sniper's now Long Shot with two boost dice. Also, we forget that there's the rest of the team - if the Rival or Nemesis is focusing on covering the ground to the Sniper, the rest of the team now is put in an advantageous position due to the NPC not using cover in a rushed attempt to take out the guy hitting him with pot-shots from Extreme Range and spending a turn losing all offensive/defensive bonuses given to them by use of maneuvers.

I don't want to make this seem like it's an uber talent, because it's not. But its a nice situational niche for players that want to play a PC that can do something like the above example, which won't be the majority .

Oh. I think my group has been doing combat very wrong. All this time I thought the strain was suffered if you did an extra manoeuvre in addition to your regular turn (e.g. move+aim+shoot or aim+aim+shoot). I thought you could aim+aim (2nd manoeuvre instead of action) with no ill effects. Oops.

Col. Orange, the best use of this weapon is for a player, like and assassin, who wants to sit back in the Extreme range band and pick of targets for the group.

Practically this either doesn't happen or happens rarely. If it does happen, it's completely due to PCs prepping an ambush ("Nice Hat" scene in Firefly comes to mind). Typically a GM-initiated fight scene where the players were unaware that a fight would break out is going to happen at medium range or closer. Same reason why the sniper build is mechanically viable in this game, as in Dark Heresy or Shadowrun, but PRACTICALLY not going to come up very much because most combat will occur in closer quarters, barring PCs setting an ambush. That's precisely why I think Point Blank is a lot lot lot more valuable. It has the added bonus of not adding a malus along with the bonus; it's just all bonus.

The more I think about it, the less play this talent gets.

Most of our combat encounters take place at Medium range at most - not the game's fault, just happenstance (though I doubt I'm alone, here).

Completely true. PCs setting an ambush is one situation where this wouldn't be the case, or the sniper taking actions to run away from the fight and get in position - but practically, that's wasted action economy for little to no payoff from this Talent. If I had to pick between moving away to use Sniper Shot (likely not shooting this turn) and staying where I was to use Point Blank (and probably shooting this turn) I think the choice is a no-brainer.

Oh. I think my group has been doing combat very wrong. All this time I thought the strain was suffered if you did an extra manoeuvre in addition to your regular turn (e.g. move+aim+shoot or aim+aim+shoot). I thought you could aim+aim (2nd manoeuvre instead of action) with no ill effects. Oops.

No, what you described was correct. See p. 200 and 203. You can take a normal Maneuver + Action, cash in your Action for a 2nd Maneuver, or spend 2 Strain to take 2 Maneuvers + Action. You just can;t take more than 2 Maneuvers per turn barring something like the Explorer Signature Ability.

MosesofWar made me doubt my own powers...

Well played.

Col. Orange, the best use of this weapon is for a player, like and assassin, who wants to sit back in the Extreme range band and pick of targets for the group.

Practically this either doesn't happen or happens rarely. If it does happen, it's completely due to PCs prepping an ambush ("Nice Hat" scene in Firefly comes to mind). Typically a GM-initiated fight scene where the players were unaware that a fight would break out is going to happen at medium range or closer. Same reason why the sniper build is mechanically viable in this game, as in Dark Heresy or Shadowrun, but PRACTICALLY not going to come up very much because most combat will occur in closer quarters, barring PCs setting an ambush. That's precisely why I think Point Blank is a lot lot lot more valuable. It has the added bonus of not adding a malus along with the bonus; it's just all bonus.

The more I think about it, the less play this talent gets.

Most of our combat encounters take place at Medium range at most - not the game's fault, just happenstance (though I doubt I'm alone, here).

Completely true. PCs setting an ambush is one situation where this wouldn't be the case, or the sniper taking actions to run away from the fight and get in position - but practically, that's wasted action economy for little to no payoff from this Talent. If I had to pick between moving away to use Sniper Shot (likely not shooting this turn) and staying where I was to use Point Blank (and probably shooting this turn) I think the choice is a no-brainer.

I agree with you. It takes a good deal of prep for this to occur - basically, you'd need to do what I said in my post detailing how this would come into play. It would require a PC to literally dedicate their RP to sitting on top of a building, while the group runs around on the streets. I've done this before with my Droid Assassin: he basically uses Perception and Stealth to find the best vantage point, makes his way there, and spots for the group with Perception and Macro-Binocs (I like to call him Overwatch ). I obviously can't do this in every situation, but this is kinda his 'niche' if you will. If the players get thrown into a Skirmish, usually I have him Snipe and no one really knows where it's coming from due to a high stealth rating. I typically can do this without ever being targetted by opposing NPCs unless they can make a successful perception check to find where I'm sniping from. It's an effective build for this particular PC, but not one that I'd recommend for everyone because it's not exactly 'exciting' unless your into that type of thing.

One of my favorite moments was when we had to take down a rival crime lord and the group setup a false negotiation, while my PC climbed up to a vantage point and sniped the crime lord while he was in the middle, of what he thought was a buyout of who we took the job from.

As previously mentioned, like gunnery it's not going to used by the majority of PCs in the game... And it's a situational talent, like many of the activated Talents, that's not always going to be used.

MosesofWar made me doubt my own powers...

Well played.

My assumption, which I guess I have to apologize for making an assumption here, was that the NPC would be taking an action, not just focusing on closing the ground to extreme range. My bad for misunderstanding!