If you made a title card that allowed the Advanced to take Systems Upgrade cards, it would only work if any new System Upgrade cards that were included in the expansion were titled Tie Advanced Only. If they were not, then you really wouldn't be fixing the problem with the Advanced since anyone(with System Upgrade) could take them too. IMO the Advance needs a title card similar to Awings Chaardan Refit to cut its cost.

Part of this I agree with. But does it hurt the Advanced if other ships can use my proposed system? The B-wing can't take the evade action.

No but the Ewing will be able to.

dont like this thread at all -.- i think that i really am the only one thinkin that the advance is totally fine maybe thats cause i have my 3 advanced ( marek as leader) with one obsidian tie list that won me many games but maybe its cause of that that i think otherwise >.> learn to fly those things guys !!

stone here is a list for u i used mostly

marek stele : swarm tactics and cluster missiles

2 PS 4 pilots with cluster missiles ( sorry dont know the english name of them )

1 obsidian tie makes a 100 points list try it out its devastating kills any x wing in an instant

dont waste the missiles in high agility targets like a wings tough

How about just giving TIE Advanced a free Fire Control System? That was our conclusion in the 23-page "Fixing the TIE Advanced" thread.

I would also change the point cost of all TIE Advanced by -1 EXCEPT for Vader. The TIE Advanced is overcosted by 3+ points relative to a TIE Fighter (see my Lanchester's thread), so a free FCS and -1 point adjustment (excluding Vader) would be right in line with the -2 point A-wing adjustment.

Edit: incidentally the free FCS makes Cluster Missiles good, but not broken, against lower agility targets. Since TIE Advanced were known for using Cluster Missiles in the lore, this makes sense that they would become the best ships to use them.

Also: With the -1 point reduction I realize that you could field 5 of them. Honestly I don't think that's a big deal, given the 7 (or even 8) TIE Swarm is standard anyway.

What the tie advanced needs is more named pilots with abilities, plain and simple. Its just too generic.

What the tie advanced needs is more named pilots with abilities, plain and simple. Its just too generic.

Darth Vader has the best ability in the game, and he has still only been used twice out of around 70 winning Store Championship lists.

So no, new pilot abilities will not really help. The ship itself is over costed very badly.

Personally, I think the reason you don't see Advanceds or A-Wings in tournament squads isn't because they are overcosted, but because as defensive ships, they simply take longer to defeat an enemy than you can afford to take in a timed match. In 75 minutes you can't dance with the other guy, you have to get in and kill him, and two attack dice aren't going to do that except in large numbers. It isn't a problem with the ships, its how they are being used.

I know, I know. The math says otherwise. Well, I don't think the math takes everything into consideration. Just my opinion.

What the tie advanced needs is more named pilots with abilities, plain and simple. Its just too generic.

Darth Vader has the best ability in the game, and he has still only been used twice out of around 70 winning Store Championship lists.

So no, new pilot abilities will not really help. The ship itself is over costed very badly.

Personally, I think the reason you don't see Advanceds or A-Wings in tournament squads isn't because they are overcosted, but because as defensive ships, they simply take longer to defeat an enemy than you can afford to take in a timed match. In 75 minutes you can't dance with the other guy, you have to get in and kill him, and two attack dice aren't going to do that except in large numbers. It isn't a problem with the ships, its how they are being used.

I know, I know. The math says otherwise. Well, I don't think the math takes everything into consideration. Just my opinion.

The Tie Advance IS an overcosted ship. No matter if there is a time limit or not, you are far better off with X-Wings.

Personally, I think the reason you don't see Advanceds or A-Wings in tournament squads isn't because they are overcosted, but because as defensive ships, they simply take longer to defeat an enemy than you can afford to take in a timed match. In 75 minutes you can't dance with the other guy, you have to get in and kill him, and two attack dice aren't going to do that except in large numbers. It isn't a problem with the ships, its how they are being used.

I know, I know. The math says otherwise. Well, I don't think the math takes everything into consideration. Just my opinion.

The Tie Advance IS an overcosted ship. No matter if there is a time limit or not, you are far better off with X-Wings.

X-Wings are easier, no question. But you can win with Advanceds, you just have to play them differently. Same with A-wings. You have to fly defensively, concentrating on avoiding fire and waiting for a shot where you can hit without being hit back. It's tricky and time consuming, which is why you don't see them in tournaments.

That being said, the Advanced "should" be a TIE leader, and it's not. If they buff the Advanced, I'd like to see it given something that will make it worth taking as a swarm leader, similar to Howlrunner's ability.

All the upgrades in the multiverse still mean nothing if you keep the costs the same. They will just make Vader more awesome and leave the others on the shelf.

The awing, which many suggested was 1pt too much got a 2 pt reduction. Many think the advanced is 2-3 too much so your reduction would need to be even more. But then again, you just make Vader better.

Getting a new paint job and a new driver doesn't change the performance of the car.

X-Wings are easier, no question. But you can win with Advanceds, you just have to play them differently. Same with A-wings. You have to fly defensively, concentrating on avoiding fire and waiting for a shot where you can hit without being hit back. It's tricky and time consuming, which is why you don't see them in tournaments.

That being said, the Advanced "should" be a TIE leader, and it's not. If they buff the Advanced, I'd like to see it given something that will make it worth taking as a swarm leader, similar to Howlrunner's ability.

Or, they just cost too much. What capability does the TIE Advanced have that other ships don't, that you can "fly differently" to take advantage of? The TIE Advanced is just a glorified TIE Fighter that costs 3+ points too much.

See my Lanchester's thread here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/

And there's nothing wrong with seeing Vader more often and him being a factor in quality lists. The reason that X-Wings for the same points are so much better isn't about pilot ability, it's about offense. A good offense is better than defense because of the math and mechanics of the game. Thus, the Advanced loses to what was supposed to be its par opponent. I don't think the gap can be closed through adding additional upgrades that involve cost. It needs either an errata reduction across the board or a significant bonus for free/minimal cost. The people who are claiming they win all the time with Advanceds should consider that it is their own, limited experience that is up against the weight of evidence from everyone else who leaves the things on the shelf except for Vader cameos. I don't want it awesome, but I wouldn't mind seeing it as much as even a Y-Wing...

This is why, for House Rules, I am doing the following:

TIE Advanced

• All TIE Advanced may now equip a Fire Control System for 0 points
• Reduce cost of Tempest Squadron Pilot from 21 to 20
• Reduce cost of Storm Squadron Pilot from 23 to 22
• Reduce cost of Maarek Steele from 27 to 26

This is why, for House Rules, I am doing the following:

TIE Advanced

• All TIE Advanced may now equip a Fire Control System for 0 points
• Reduce cost of Tempest Squadron Pilot from 21 to 20
• Reduce cost of Storm Squadron Pilot from 23 to 22
• Reduce cost of Maarek Steele from 27 to 26

Now these rules sound more competitive.

5 x Tempest with FCS ... could be nice. Ever tried it?

This is why, for House Rules, I am doing the following:

TIE Advanced

• All TIE Advanced may now equip a Fire Control System for 0 points
• Reduce cost of Tempest Squadron Pilot from 21 to 20
• Reduce cost of Storm Squadron Pilot from 23 to 22
• Reduce cost of Maarek Steele from 27 to 26

Now these rules sound more competitive.

5 x Tempest with FCS ... could be nice. Ever tried it?

Nope. I spend more time on these forums and MathWinging than I do playing right now.

I'm going to have to give this a try. Simple and effective.

Maarek is still just a pilot with EPT ... so hopefully the Proton Rockets will produce crits..

What if Maarek could drop a Proton Bomb? ... would his ability trigger for the splash damage? ^^

I'm going to have to give this a try. Simple and effective.

Cool. Let us know how it goes. With these changes TIE Advanced should be a hair better than X-wings, but still not quite on par with TIE Fighters (especially with Howlrunner support), or B-wings.

I'm going to have to give this a try. Simple and effective.

Cool. Let us know how it goes. With these changes TIE Advanced should be a hair better than X-wings, but still not quite on par with TIE Fighters (especially with Howlrunner support), or B-wings.

You use the abilities that Advanceds have that X-wings don't. Evade and barrel roll actions to get out of firing arcs. You did the math at one point that showed an Advanced needs to be out of arc 1/3 of the time to break even. In my experience, in a one-on-one fight you can get out of arc a lot more than 1/3 of the time.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that you're wrong, just that the math isn't the be-all and end-all of the issue. I agree that Advanceds aren't a terribly useful ship in a tournament, just not why they aren't.

A year and a few months ago, when all we had was TIEs and TIE Advanceds and X- and Y-wings, were the Advanceds overcosted then? I seem to recall lots of discussion on how Y-wings were broken, but none about the Advanced. The Advanced may well have been left behind by the evolving meta of the game, but I don't see how that means they're overcosted.

Technically the Advanced don't have to arc dodge 1/3 the time, the X-wings need to have no shot 1/3 the time, assuming the Advanced have 100% of their shots.

Forcing 1/3 the X-wings to have no shot each round while you have all of yours is going to be almost impossible in a 4v4 fireball.

Either way you're right, the math is not the end all.

Tournament results are, and if you look at Rakky's thread, less than 1% of the points spent are on Advanced. (Vader in both cases)

Well, if the Advanced is out of the X-wing's arc, then the X-wing has no shot. And I agree that this is far less likely to happen in a 4x4 battle. That's why I think the Advanced should be a command ship for TIEs, not a brawler like people are trying to use it. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole doesn't mean the peg is wrong.

As I said, I think the Meta has left the Advanced behind. It just doesn't fit in the Imperial paradigm. It takes too long to win to be an effective tournament fighter. You need to charge in and pound the crap out of your opponent, and that isn't what the Advanced is built for.

If/when they do buff the Advanced, I would prefer to see it given some kind of support ability (similar to Howlrunner) that would make it worth taking as a squadron leader. That's the only way its going to fit into the Imperial paradigm.