Hi All,

Hopefully an FFG rep can answer this, but I'll take any advice I can get.

I am planning out some software for various things related to XWing miniatures and would like to include images of the cards (pilots and upgrades) and possibly the ships in the software.

Now, between my friends and I, we have every ship currently available (plus more when my Aces packs finally ship). I would be taking the pictures/scans myself so I would not be using FFG official images. To some companies, this is perfectly acceptable and sometimes encouraged so as to avoid copyright issues.

The software I plan to create may or may not be used for financial gain (memberships), so if there is a reason to keep it free, or if it being free to use is the only way to use my images of FFG's creations, then I would appreciate confirmation of that as well.

- Cheers

I doubt that FFG's legal department frequents the forums.

You should probably write a letter to their legal department. You want their answer in writing regardless of what it is. However, I've done a lot of reading on copyright law and you face an uphill challenge.

The greater issue wouldn't be using the images, but duplicating their rules and then making money from it which I'm pretty sure would be a no no.

Gaining any monetary value from the images would definitely is out for sure. Every image is the rights of FFG. You would have to get permission other wise. Tread lightly as you are talking about copy rights.

Certainly not a lawyer but I'm sure you can use your own pictures and be fine from legal trouble. Not entirely sure though.

Sounds like an amazing idea if FFG is smart they will work out a deal that benefits both of you, could help to include some stat tracking for tournaments which I've herd is a huge issue

Certainly not a lawyer but I'm sure you can use your own pictures and be fine from legal trouble. Not entirely sure though.

You're own images would get you past the image copyright, but not the rules copyright. Miniature games happen to straddle the two where the items are copyrighted, both for the visual aesthetics as well as the rules wordings.

As mentioned, get their approval, but... sometimes.. as long as you make no monetary gain on their product they might not mind.. just look at all the squad builders out there.. no cost to use them...

The greater issue wouldn't be using the images, but duplicating their rules and then making money from it which I'm pretty sure would be a no no.

Nope. You cannot copyright the rules themselves, only the textual presentation of them.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

The images and so forth you can, though, which is where most use for software will get into trouble.

Regardless of the technical legalities, though, never forget the first rule of the American legal system: He With More Money Wins. The mere threat of legal fees can squash most casual users regardless of who's actually in the right.

Now, between my friends and I, we have every ship currently available (plus more when my Aces packs finally ship). I would be taking the pictures/scans myself so I would not be using FFG official images.

IANAL, but scanning images or taking photographs does not circumvent copyright.

Wow, lots of answers in short order.

For some more information, I am trying to make a tourney tracking system that will be able to track a players progress through various store championships, local tourneys, even regionals if it gets useful enough. The stores would have to participate in this though, which could be an issue as some stores would rather stick with a sheet of paper to run their tournament.

The software would not be a digital copy of the game at all. Mostly it would be for the squad tracking portion of the system so you can track which of your squads are doing what over the course of your games. Funny enough, the squad builder is the most complicated thing to create in this endeavor.

I really want to create a system that stores as well as players will use in order to contribute to the data pool so players can get stats on their squads and win records, and stores could track their tournaments and see who is using what in the tourneys.

I literally only came up with the idea to do this this morning, so there is a lot of work left to do in the planning stage, but I do know that I will probably forego images of ships or cards just to keep things simple. And, since I already created a list builder for Dreadball for free, I would probably do this for free as well.

Thanks for the advice all. And if you have any requests, please send them my way.

Cheers

Hopefully an FFG rep can answer this, but I'll take any advice I can get.

Who needs the images? Just write the squad up in simple text with no rules and your fine. For example:

Dagger Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 24

Advanced Sensors 3

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Fire-Control System 2

Rookie Pilot — X-Wing 21

R2 Astromech 1

Garven Dreis — X-Wing 26

R2 Astromech 1

Total 100

If you're making tournament software here's a few points:

You don't need images of the cards if you're tracking players and what they took so you don't need to add it in. You're just adding a level of complexity and opening yourself to be sued.

There is already some tournament software out there, a lot of it is free so charging a membership will get you nowhere. If you want an example of why it won't work, go read about Rankings HQ and see how it fared for them.

Want you would ideally do if you're committed is create a website to host rankings. Create software that people can download from the site to run the events. Provide a way to easily upload this data into the ranking system preferably from within your app. Use advertisements on the website and in your app to provide you with the income to balance the cost of running it.

You are free to take photos of miniatures that you own and use them on your website and in your application.

Who needs the images? Just write the squad up in simple text with no rules and your fine. For example: ...

You are assuming the OP is talking about some form of squad builder. I see nothing in that post to warrant that assumption. We have no idea what the OP is designing.

Is it really fine though? Game rules aren't copyrightable, but art and text is. It's not clear to me to what extent text is copyrightable.

Can I refer to a ship as an 'X-wing' legally?

How about the terms 'focus', 'target lock', etc.?

How about 'Green Squadron Pilot' or 'Wedge Antilles'?

Finally, what about the full text on the cards?

It's hard to know where to draw the line... Then aside from copyright, there's also trademark laws. If I make a piece of software for building X-wing squads, am I allowed to call it an X-wing squad builder, or is 'X-wing' a trademark?

Hopefully an FFG rep can answer this, but I'll take any advice I can get.

Who needs the images? Just write the squad up in simple text with no rules and your fine. For example:

Dagger Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 24

Advanced Sensors 3

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Fire-Control System 2

Rookie Pilot — X-Wing 21

R2 Astromech 1

Garven Dreis — X-Wing 26

R2 Astromech 1

Total 100

That's a question none of us can answer. You need to contract FFG Legal or your own lawyer.

Is it really fine though? Game rules aren't copyrightable, but art and text is. It's not clear to me to what extent text is copyrightable.

Good point, but you also don't have to register copyright. You write it, you own it. Because of the Mickey Mouse rule, it's now for an absurd amount of time too, like 120 years from creation, or 95 years from publication, or author's death + 70 years, whichever comes first. Originally it was 14 years, intended to spur creative works.

I encourage your work, but I would tread very carefully. I can't emphasize this enough:

Regardless of the technical legalities, though, never forget the first rule of the American legal system: He With More Money Wins. The mere threat of legal fees can squash most casual users regardless of who's actually in the right.

Any of the Star Wars specific terms, along with character or ship names, are probably all property of Disney and/or Lucasfilm Ltd., not FFG so you'd need permission from *their* legal department first especially if any monetary gain is to be made.

Good luck with that.

I am a lawyer, but the following does not constitute legal advice. No attorney-client relationship is formed as a result of the communication. As always, if you have a legal issue or question, it is strongly recommended that you consult a lawyer.

Disclaimer out of the way, so here comes some legalese == skip post if you don't care.

There are a few interesting issues in play here. One, X-wing miniatures is a form of derivative work (Disney's Star wars stuff) with some original work by FFG (the rules). While it is true that the substance of the rules cannot not be copyrighted, that is not the only form of protection under intellectual property law. Likely, FFG's rules are protected by some patents.

Derivative works are still protected under copyright, both under their own copyright, and the copyright of the work derived from. So while Wedge Antilles may not be protectable by FFG, Disney could defend.

One form of protection does not exclude the other. The term X-wing is probably both a trademark and protected by copyright law.

Another thing to consider is the fair use doctrine. Basically, if your interference in their copyright is minimal, you are protected from suit. The classic example of this is photocopying a comic and sticking it on your fridge. Yes infringement, but so minute as to not realistically harm the owner of copyright.

Generally, when what you use is spread around, you generally fall out of the fair use doctrine. Generally, profiting out of of someone else's ip is frowned upon.

I can't give you my opinion of the legality of what you're planning, for reasons both ethical and legal, but I can comment on that area of the law in a more general fashion, which I hope y'all have found useful.

I should also not my knowledge of IP law is not exactly exhaustive. I took a couple of classes in law school, but it isn't something I generally practice.

There's always a chance they could be developing something in house similar to your idea. Or they could just want to keep that option open for them selves. Either way they would shut your project down. Your best bet is to get permission from FFG. since you are dealing with a license out side of FFG that could come into play aswell.

Certainly not a lawyer but I'm sure you can use your own pictures and be fine from legal trouble. Not entirely sure though.

You're own images would get you past the image copyright, but not the rules copyright. Miniature games happen to straddle the two where the items are copyrighted, both for the visual aesthetics as well as the rules wordings.

Rules and dice mechanics can't be copywritten. Hence attack wing being able to use very similar rules. And you would own your own images.

Just to put another copyright spanner in the works, if you're considering a website, you may wish to check out international copyright laws also, as if it's on the world wide web anyone anywhere in the world can have access to it.

Certainly not a lawyer but I'm sure you can use your own pictures and be fine from legal trouble. Not entirely sure though.

You're own images would get you past the image copyright, but not the rules copyright. Miniature games happen to straddle the two where the items are copyrighted, both for the visual aesthetics as well as the rules wordings.

Rules and dice mechanics can't be copywritten. Hence attack wing being able to use very similar rules. And you would own your own images.

You are aware that Wizkids is licensing (paying) the flight path system from FFG correct? Wizkids didn't just steal the idea....

See I don't see why they needed to do that. The only thing that Attack Wing uses from X-Wing as far as I know is the game mechanics, which aren't copyrightable. I guess it could be patented as another posted said, but can you really patent something like that?

Maybe they just chose to license it so that they didn't appear as if they were totally ripping off FFG, which might not be received well by the community they're trying to sell to.

Certainly not a lawyer but I'm sure you can use your own pictures and be fine from legal trouble. Not entirely sure though.

You're own images would get you past the image copyright, but not the rules copyright. Miniature games happen to straddle the two where the items are copyrighted, both for the visual aesthetics as well as the rules wordings.

Rules and dice mechanics can't be copywritten. Hence attack wing being able to use very similar rules. And you would own your own images.

You are aware that Wizkids is licensing (paying) the flight path system from FFG correct? Wizkids didn't just steal the idea....