Once again I'm going to have to blame the standard death match format for the advance being considered a poor ship. In objective based missions or as an assassin the advance is quite good. It's not worth it in the "kill everything" format the FFG encourages though. A-wings and Interceptors have a related problem. I'm really hoping epic and cinematic play fixes this.

Once again I'm going to have to blame the standard death match format for the advance being considered a poor ship. In objective based missions or as an assassin the advance is quite good. It's not worth it in the "kill everything" format the FFG encourages though. A-wings and Interceptors have a related problem. I'm really hoping epic and cinematic play fixes this.

Were we to run accurate movie scenarios rebels would get 30 to 50 points for every 100 the empire got.(on a good day for the rebels.) They were always outgunned. We can't base the game off of that. It would be awful. Tournaments would make no sense. Squadbuilding would barely matter. The empire would always win.

Aminar: Well sure the rebels would get 30-50 base points. But also shields wouldn't get destroyed except for critical hits. ¬_¬

Hi Crabbok,

The math does not support your hypothesis at all. There is a 23 page thread here dedicated to it:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/94711-fixing-the-tie-advanced/

Which hypothesis is that exactly? I don't remember making any hypotheses that involve math so please enlighten me.

I have made several observations however, such as :

X-Wing and Advanced Dials are nearly identical.

X-Wing and Advanced point costs are identical.

X-Wing and Advanced stats are nearly identical, having only flip flopped agility and attack.

The only hypothesis is that an advanced would beat an X-Wing on a 1v1 duel. Math doesn't even factor in, because the reason the TIE Advanced would win is due to the barrel roll giving it higher maneuverability, and more opportunities to ensure that the X-Wing simply cannot even HAVE a shot on it.

So I'm left to assume that you are referencing some other hypothesis. Please explain.

Once again I'm going to have to blame the standard death match format for the advance being considered a poor ship. In objective based missions or as an assassin the advance is quite good. It's not worth it in the "kill everything" format the FFG encourages though. A-wings and Interceptors have a related problem. I'm really hoping epic and cinematic play fixes this.

Except that pretty much every major battle ever has been a death match. Sure, there are bombing runs and the like, but scenarios like that do not at all foster competitive play. In the end Death Match is what the games is balanced for. If a ship isn't good in a deathmatch it is a bad ship.

Were we to run accurate movie scenarios rebels would get 30 to 50 points for every 100 the empire got.(on a good day for the rebels.) They were always outgunned. We can't base the game off of that. It would be awful. Tournaments would make no sense. Squadbuilding would barely matter. The empire would always win.

They completely foster competitive play. Basic attacker/defender scenarios work incredibly well and in these instances advances would be excellent backup to interceptors (if defending), or escorts for bombers (if attacking). Death match is the standard and always will be, but the also have to follow the lore and that leads to some ships that would clearly be good at things that just aren't part of standard play. And since they are introducing new Official variant formats it makes sense they might possibly address this.

Never asked for accurate movie scenarios, just something more involved than "let's you and him fight".

Once again I'm going to have to blame the standard death match format for the advance being considered a poor ship. In objective based missions or as an assassin the advance is quite good. It's not worth it in the "kill everything" format the FFG encourages though. A-wings and Interceptors have a related problem. I'm really hoping epic and cinematic play fixes this.

Except that pretty much every major battle ever has been a death match. Sure, there are bombing runs and the like, but scenarios like that do not at all foster competitive play. In the end Death Match is what the games is balanced for. If a ship isn't good in a deathmatch it is a bad ship.

Were we to run accurate movie scenarios rebels would get 30 to 50 points for every 100 the empire got.(on a good day for the rebels.) They were always outgunned. We can't base the game off of that. It would be awful. Tournaments would make no sense. Squadbuilding would barely matter. The empire would always win.

No, actual death matches where both sides are actively attacking and trying to wipe out each other are comparatively rare in the real world. Attack/defense, siege, ambush, attacks on logistics or facilities, skirmishes, feints, and any other action with an objective beyond killing are FAR more common than focusing on attacking each other's army.

X-Wing and Advanced stats are nearly identical, having only flip flopped agility and attack.

And that's the reason they should not cost the same. a4rino explained it perfectly.

Seems like both the advanced and awing were developed in a time where missiles were thought to be "too strong" and have to "pay" to even equip them. Now that we see missiles are still not considered overpowered and are in the "barely viable" category, they should get an adjustment and they have done so with the awing often considered overcosted by 1pt, what will they do with the advanced, who is overcosted by at least 2 pts?

I really do want to see "The Imperial War Machine" pack.

I want to see it come with a tie droid! in addition to the other stuff I posted earlier. 10pt tie fighter would certainly make me fell better today!

Here's a thought.

Tie Advanced X2 Title.

Reduces the defense value by 1 and increases the attack value by 1. You now have a X-Wing with evade and barrel roll but no astromech slot.

Well specifically that title name probably wouldn't make it past the approval stage. Mostly because the X2 was supposed to the be the Avenger prototype and not directly related to the original Advanced, a different ship. Funny part being I would except an Avenger to look like that too. It had the 4 laser cannons, and was designed as a superiority fighter against the X-Wing for the TIE Fighter game.

Is not the title of this thread your hypothesis? And your very first statement in the first post?

It's fundamentally flawed to state that Attack dice = Defence dice.

In a 1v1 duel, the Advanced wins? What about a 4v4 X squad versus Advanced squad?

'Why we won't see a point-cost reduction for TIE Advanced:'

Short answer: Because isn't a rebel ship.

.

.

.

4 reasons why Attack dice are better then Evade...

1. Odds

Evade dice have 2 focus, 3 Evade and 3 Blank on it, while Attack have 2 focus, 3 hits, 1 crit and 2 Blanks. You can see the attack dice trades a blank for a crit, which there is not way that's even.

2. Target Lock

While the more or less counterpart to Target Lock is Evade, evade is a free miss but target lock relies on dice, so the more you have the better it is. Therefore target lock is better on high attack ships.

3. Luck

If I am using the Advanced and you are using the X-wing and we both get the best roll we could get on are attacks, but the worst on defense (2-3 Crits Vs. 0 evades) then you land 3 hits vs. my 2. you now took out my shields and landed a crit on me, while i only took out your shields. I know this is the weakest of my points but luck is still a big part of the game.

4. Left overs

My last point is left overs, if i roll 3 attack and you roll 2 Evades, there is 1 more attack then defense which results in 1 damage being done to the defender. If the next attack i roll 1 attack and you roll 3 evades, all the leftovers are wasted. You only needed 1 evade but those 2 wasted evades do nothing, while left over attacks is what you need.

Those are my points, try a 1 on 1 match Rookie Vs. Tempest, you already know who will win though there cost is even.

EDIT: just saw A4rino made some similar points, but i didn't see that at first.

'Why we won't see a point-cost reduction for TIE Advanced:'

Short answer: Because isn't a rebel ship.

Seriously, come on. I know you put a little winky face, but this is what a lot of people around here (including you) have been saying without winky faces for a couple of weeks now, and it's getting really old. The Empire just got a content refresh for their sexiest ship (if not currently the most effective/competitive), which included (IMO) a game-changing EPT and a set of discounted elite pilots. We have no real idea yet what the metagame is going to do with that, but I'd bet Jax and the Royal Guard at least are here to stay.

And there's a new wave coming up that not only gives the Empire the best (fighter) stat line in the game, but also hands the forces of law and order a ship with a brand-new and exclusive action. The details haven't been released yet, but the Phantom is a highly offensive ship with a freaking cloaking device, and I think we're going to end up liking that very much.

But the Rebels get a discount on a fighter that wasn't very popular, plus a very expensive B-wing pilot, and suddenly almost all of my online hangouts are suddenly full of people claiming that mommy and daddy FFG clearly love the Rebels more. It's not even that the community is being impatient--it's that we appear to have the short-term memory and critical-thinking capacity of a roomful of toddlers on meth.

We're better than this. Right? Can't we be better than this?

I think we've lost the the greater thrust of the argument.

Pledge Antlers is a great name.

Ah sure ... you complain about B-Wings beeing too expensive?

How about a Simsalabim-refit that takes your torpedo slots for ... lets say 2 points each?

Would this satisfy you? Yeees, there you go - see, nobody used the top slots on the B-Wings anyway.

But thats a secret - don't tell anyone

I'm sure the TIE/x1 has a chance to receive a cost reduction card of some sort.

The purpose if a possible cost reduction wouldn't be to squeeze in an extra TIE/x1.

It's purpose would be similar that which the A-Wing received; to shift opportunity cost to a different area.

If the Advance does get a boost in the next "buff box" I expect it to be near to exactly the same as the A-Wing's.

- a 1-2 point allowance to be used else ware probably the Missile opportunity. (similar: Cardaan Refit)

- a card adding a new slot for Sensors, Extra Missiles, EPT.

Wither it is a 1 or 2 point allowance, and other special add-ons the ship will get it would need to be balanced against it's named pilots and future named pilots.

Right now Tycho can be given upgrades to be similar to Vader + Engine. the only difference is Dial, 1PS, 1pts, and K-Turning due to Stress.

It may seem unlikely that the TIE/x1 compared to the X-Wing will get any sole points reduction. But you forget to take into account that the A-Wing while it did get a points reduction was also given a card to allow those points to be spent on the same ship through additional EPTs.

what I'm hinting at is "packaged deal". In the end you might be able to squeeze in an extra ship in; but the intention of the "discount" or points reallocation is to boost the specific ship's weaknesses. Not weight of numbers.

So now you have 4 Tires for the price of 3... do you buy a 5th Tire with the saved points? or spend it on something that allows your 4 tires last you until you need to get another set.

I'm sure the TIE/x1 has a chance to receive a cost reduction card of some sort.

The purpose if a possible cost reduction wouldn't be to squeeze in an extra TIE/x1.

It's purpose would be similar that which the A-Wing received; to shift opportunity cost to a different area.

If the Advance does get a boost in the next "buff box" I expect it to be near to exactly the same as the A-Wing's.

- a 1-2 point allowance to be used else ware probably the Missile opportunity. (similar: Cardaan Refit)

- a card adding a new slot for Sensors, Extra Missiles, EPT.

Wither it is a 1 or 2 point allowance, and other special add-ons the ship will get it would need to be balanced against it's named pilots and future named pilots.

I really hope the Advanced doesn't get a cut and paste treatment. I honestly think the HWK is a good model for the Advanced. Like the HWK, the Advanced pilots should help the squad be better with their ability. The HWK has the potential to be the best blaster turret in the game. The Advanced should have the ability to be the best missile delivery system in the game.

Yes, because we saw Vader shoot so many missiles in the trench over the deathstar..

I have always thought missiles on the Advanced was lackluster... and no, I haven't played any of the video games.. I suck at those and find no fun in dieing all the time... I think a refit card for it would be best, and giving it fire control or even advanced sensors would be fine. I have only used missiles on the advanced because I needed to spend points, its nice when they connect, but dice aren't always helpful there.

Yes, because we saw Vader shoot so many missiles in the trench over the deathstar..

I have always thought missiles on the Advanced was lackluster... and no, I haven't played any of the video games.. I suck at those and find no fun in dieing all the time... I think a refit card for it would be best, and giving it fire control or even advanced sensors would be fine. I have only used missiles on the advanced because I needed to spend points, its nice when they connect, but dice aren't always helpful there.

The Advanced was built, in part, as a missile platform and FFG has not captured this. NOTHING should do more damage (or hit more often) than a missile fired from an Advanced. Because this is not so, people feel underwhelmed by the ship in action. I think you hit the nail on the head with how much the Advanced would improve if it gained a System upgrade.

While Cut and Paste isn't a greatest idea, it is a valid idea, when thinking of the general nature of the ship's future advancement.

It potentially could make the TIE/x1 a extremely flexible fighter platform for the Empire; depending how it ends up being configured. extra missiles, swapping missiles for torpedoes, additional EPTs swapping missiles for systems.

With Titles adding icon slots and the fact that FFG has given the A-Wing refit allowance to reallocate points by removing slots it opens a large number of doors for the TIE/x1; which a fair deal of the forum agrees the ship is "underwhelming" at least in a timed tournament setting.

I'm not saying that turning it into a small-base Command-aNd-Control ship isn't a good idea. I think it's a great idea to give the Empire a C&C ship considering it uses Swarming Tactics and weight of numbers.

Turning the TIE/x1 into a support ship similar to the HWK-290 can be done with named pilots. The suggestion of a points reduction plus the addition of a different Slot-Type to replace the Missile is merely to allow for flexibility of upgrade choices.

lvlerlin makes great points. The missile slot being used for other things seems like a natural fit for the Advance too. And yes, for the love of all things good and holly, can we please get some new pilots!

Hi Crabbok,

The math does not support your hypothesis at all. There is a 23 page thread here dedicated to it:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/94711-fixing-the-tie-advanced/

Which hypothesis is that exactly? I don't remember making any hypotheses that involve math so please enlighten me.

This:

1. How often does a TIE Advanced have to use the barrel roll action to get out of the X-wing's firing arc before the two ships do the same average damage to each other and therefore are equivalent?
2. Is it realistically possible to expect this percentage of successful barrel rolls in a real game? It will obviously be easier to pull off arc dodging 1v1 as opposed to a 4v4 furball.

To get a reasonable answer to the first question, express the damage output of the two ships and set them equal to find the break even point:

D1*(1 - B) = D2*(1 - B) + D3*B

where:

D1 = the average damage that the X-wing does to the TIE Advanced, using standard action economy

D2 = the average damage that the TIE Advanced does to the X-wing, using standard action economy

D3 = the average damage that the TIE Advanced does to the X-wing, having spent its action on Barrel Roll

B = % of time that the TIE Advanced uses a Barrel Roll action to completely evade the X-wing's arc

B can be any number between 0 and 1. If you never use Barrel Roll, then it's 0. If you can get out of the X-wing's arc every single turn, then B is 1. Actual numbers in a real game will be something between 0 and 1. So now lets look at this:

Back to math, solving for B to find the break even point:

B = (D1 - D2) / (D1 - D2 + D3)

Now lets get some rough numbers for D1, D2, D3. Lets assume:

• the attacker has focus 2/3 the time for D1 and D2
• the defender has focus 1/2 the time
• ranges will be 25% / 50% / 25% at ranges 1, 2, 3

That results in:

D1 = 0.8542

And the value of B needed to equalize the two net damages is:

B = 0.3192

So, if the TIE Advanced can make 1/3 of the X-wings have zero shots by using Barrel Roll, then you will about break even. You might be able to pull this off in a 1v1, but this is almost impossible in a 4v4 furball, especially on the initial pass. Now obviously this is a simplified analysis, and you could get into more detail to get a more accurate answer. But the point is, that to do so requires MATH.

Yes, because we saw Vader shoot so many missiles in the trench over the deathstar..

I have always thought missiles on the Advanced was lackluster... and no, I haven't played any of the video games.. I suck at those and find no fun in dieing all the time... I think a refit card for it would be best, and giving it fire control or even advanced sensors would be fine. I have only used missiles on the advanced because I needed to spend points, its nice when they connect, but dice aren't always helpful there.

The Advanced was built, in part, as a missile platform and FFG has not captured this. NOTHING should do more damage (or hit more often) than a missile fired from an Advanced. Because this is not so, people feel underwhelmed by the ship in action. I think you hit the nail on the head with how much the Advanced would improve if it gained a System upgrade.

Honestly, I dont know enough about the Adcanced from a design point of view. I only know it from the movies, and they didn't have missiles from what I saw..

I don't always regard video games as valid because they throw things on a ship to make it playable and viable in their game...

If it was supposed to be a missile boat it should have had 2 slots and a system upgrade from the start... sounds like an opportunity wasted...

I personally love the Advanced, and I feel FFG lost an opportunity to make it awesome. If it should have missiles then give it 2 and system upgrade and let us use it competitively ...

As I said, my only knowledge of it is from the movies and from that I felt it should be as viable as an X wing, which, I feel, it should be the equal of... at the least..

Yes, because we saw Vader shoot so many missiles in the trench over the deathstar..

I have always thought missiles on the Advanced was lackluster... and no, I haven't played any of the video games.. I suck at those and find no fun in dieing all the time... I think a refit card for it would be best, and giving it fire control or even advanced sensors would be fine. I have only used missiles on the advanced because I needed to spend points, its nice when they connect, but dice aren't always helpful there.

The Advanced was built, in part, as a missile platform and FFG has not captured this. NOTHING should do more damage (or hit more often) than a missile fired from an Advanced. Because this is not so, people feel underwhelmed by the ship in action. I think you hit the nail on the head with how much the Advanced would improve if it gained a System upgrade.

Honestly, I dont know enough about the Adcanced from a design point of view. I only know it from the movies, and they didn't have missiles from what I saw..

I don't always regard video games as valid because they throw things on a ship to make it playable and viable in their game...

If it was supposed to be a missile boat it should have had 2 slots and a system upgrade from the start... sounds like an opportunity wasted...

I personally love the Advanced, and I feel FFG lost an opportunity to make it awesome. If it should have missiles then give it 2 and system upgrade and let us use it competitively ...

As I said, my only knowledge of it is from the movies and from that I felt it should be as viable as an X wing, which, I feel, it should be the equal of... at the least..

And I agree with you that the Advanced was shown as the leader's choice of Ties in the movies. It should feel like this in the game! They did an awesome job with Vader, he is and should be the best pilot in the game. There needs to be other great team leading abilities attached to the Advanced though. I plan to play test a few idea I've had for the Advanced soon to see how they work out. Maybe I can convince FFG to adopt some of my ideas. lol