It's interesting to note that, since a skill check is required in order to lie convincingly, you can sort of tell whether an NPC is lying by whether or not the GM is making that NPC roll a skill check.

Sadly that's an issue that's endemic of RPGs in general.

Most players get very nervous when the GM rolls dice, or asks the players what a certain trait on their character sheet is.

Donovan has a good point here. Perhaps the issue is that the familiar method of antagonistical GM'ing is is not appropriate for this rpg. Not everything should be an opposed roll.

If the GM wants one of their characters to be lying they don't have to roll for it. If the players think someone is lying, maybe they, the players, should choose what to roll depending on the situation. Perception to see if the NPC is sweating (maybe even requiring a lore check to know what the species equivalent of stress sweating is).

If the 'lie' is about something the player knows about, the player can direct the encounter by saying "this used ship salesman is trying to pull a fast one, I'm going to roll mechanics to catch him in a lie".

This also brings to point one of the mechanics of this system. Whatever the skill used, a player could use a triumph to say a ln NPC is lying even if they aren't. Now GM could say no to that, but a good GM (especially for a player empowering system like this) should be able to go with that.

That Blasted Samoflange,

That's generally what I do, is I let the PCs decide if they're going to try and see if an NPC is lying to them or not. Generally, PCs are suspicious by nature, and so I'll let them roll against the NPC's Deception check (if the NPC is indeed lying) or their Charm (if the PC is being truthful), but without telling them which skill they're rolling against.

As long as the player in question is good about avoiding meta-game thinking, it'd probably work fairly well.

Alternatively, the GM could have it be an opposed check of sorts, with both PC and NPC rolling, and the one with the most successes wins. That way, the player doesn't really know if they failed or succeeded, only that their character either suspects something or thinks the other person really is being honest. Of course, that also relies on trust, this time trust that the GM won't try to hose the player and thus railroad the current adventure plot if it relies upon the PCs swallowing a lie.

Hey Dono,

Do you think Charm is a good choice there, though? When Darth Vader tells Luke that he is his father, and this were an RPG, Luke's player would almost certainly try to detect a lie. Was Vader using Charm to convince Luke about his parentage?

Setting aside the actual rules for a moment, I am inclined to treat detecting a lie as an unopposed skill roll in which the GM rolls the difficulty dice in secret, and the player does not know for certain whether he has succeeded or failed. The GM would then say something vague like "You do/don't think he is lying."

I believe that this is one of those cases where the group storytelling dynamic needs to take a back seat to need for restraining player knowledge in the interests of a fun surprise or plot twist.

Just my opinion though, and I know not everyone will share it.

I see Cool being discussed to detect lies, but isn't Deception resisted with Discipline?

Whatever the skill used, a player could use a triumph to say a ln NPC is lying even if they aren't. Now GM could say no to that, but a good GM (especially for a player empowering system like this) should be able to go with that.

Unless, of course, they aren't, and the fact they aren't is in some way important. In this case I think it's fair for the GM to flatly state, OOC, the NPC is not lying. Which means dice shouldn't be involved.

Player: "I want to check to see if he's lying."

GM: "He's not."

Player: "But I want to check that."

GM: "Why? He's not lying. I understand you, as a player, find the statement implausible, but the fact remains- he's not lying."

"Player: "But how is my character supposed to know that?"

GM: "Because I just told you he's not lying."

Is this not a valid method?

It's harder for a GM to role play a NPC lie than it is for a GM to simply lie. Especially within the context of a science-fantasy setting. The GM has nothing truly personally invested in maintaining a NPC lie because it's just a game, not a matter of life and death, prosperity or poverty.

The GM has nothing truly personally invested in maintaining a NPC lie because it's just a game, not a matter of life and death, prosperity or poverty.

Nothing invested - except in the numerous cases where starting the adventure hinges on misleading the PCs. Shadowrun was big for this, but many of the same adventure themes can work in Edge just as easily.

Fine. Sure. Excepting if the players don't fall for the deception they don't pull guns and shoot the GM, or rob him of his possessions. Being fully invested in the NPC lie is, simply put, impossible. Trying to impress a potential employer (IRL) while attempting to get a job far beyond your skill set because it's paying substantial salaries that will alleviate your substantial debt? Personally invested. Trying to convince make-believe thugs to rescue your "daughter" when in actuality it is a kidnapping intended as blackmail leverage that might alleviate your substantial debt? Game; nothing personal about it.

I see this as a case where the players would know there is deception involved, and their characters will be (or should be) suitably vigilant.

Hey Dono,

Do you think Charm is a good choice there, though? When Darth Vader tells Luke that he is his father, and this were an RPG, Luke's player would almost certainly try to detect a lie. Was Vader using Charm to convince Luke about his parentage?

I just picked a skill at random to use if the PC wanted to actively "spot a lie" and the GM needed to come up with something for a difficultly pool for when the NPC was telling the truth.

In that particular case, Luke's PC quite probably succeeded on the check (I figure Anakin/Vader was never the type to invest in Charm and instead rely on Influence's affect minds or just his raw Presence), so the player (not aware which skill he was rolling against) figured that Luke had "spotted the lie," but he'd also generated a lot of Threat, which the GM then used to twist the knife and have Luke suffer mental anguish (aka Strain) over the 'what if Vader's not lying?' possibility.

I figure Anakin/Vader was never the type to invest in Charm

Well, considering that all his sweet talking failed to get him in Padme's panties - but revelations that he massacred a village got her all hot (and not so bothered)...

I see Cool being discussed to detect lies, but isn't Deception resisted with Discipline?

Cool would probably be more of trying to play off a lie as the truth, so that he opponent wouldn't even think to question that you're not being truthful. I guess. Still don't like this nebulous skill.

I figure Anakin/Vader was never the type to invest in Charm

Well, considering that all his sweet talking failed to get him in Padme's panties - but revelations that he massacred a village got her all hot (and not so bothered)...

They're PCs, and PCs can easily have character's "hook up" or be sweet-talked even if one of them has all the personality of a 2x4 with a smiley face drawn on it. Game mechanics in this case would have nothing to do with it.

I figure Anakin/Vader was never the type to invest in Charm

Well, considering that all his sweet talking failed to get him in Padme's panties - but revelations that he massacred a village got her all hot (and not so bothered)...

They're PCs, and PCs can easily have character's "hook up" or be sweet-talked even if one of them has all the personality of a 2x4 with a smiley face drawn on it. Game mechanics in this case would have nothing to do with it.

I just find it amusing that a scene of savagery is what it takes to make a former Queen of Naboo swoon.

Probably less "swoon" and more "moment of pity for someone that's just gone through a majorly traumatic event and anguishing over their reaction to that event." Anakin already had plenty of chances to make her swoon prior to him going off to find his missing mom.

I figure Anakin/Vader was never the type to invest in Charm

Well, considering that all his sweet talking failed to get him in Padme's panties - but revelations that he massacred a village got her all hot (and not so bothered)...

They're PCs, and PCs can easily have character's "hook up" or be sweet-talked even if one of them has all the personality of a 2x4 with a smiley face drawn on it. Game mechanics in this case would have nothing to do with it.

I just find it amusing that a scene of savagery is what it takes to make a former Queen of Naboo swoon.

We're talking about a planet that has elected a teenager to be their head of state. I wouldn't go around lavishing much praise on Nabooan cultural mindfulness.

I will say things like "You feel very confident" or "You feel you have good reason to believe that he's telling the truth."

We made an NPC contact for one character, and I described him as "An old friend you have good reasons to trust."

This doesn't tell the PC flat-out that he CAN trust the NPC, and as GM I could certainly see developments that would lead to the NPC lying or betraying the PC in some way.

I'd very seldom tell a player "You KNOW he is telling the truth", unless the PC had direct evidence of this. I'd tell the player that their PC feels confident that the NPC is telling the truth.

There are lots of reasons why a Social check might be made that don't necessarily involve lies, so you can ask a PC to make a Discipline or a Cool check and you don't have to reveal the source of the difficulty dice.