Can every card be Amazing? how can you have an amazing card if you don't have poor cards to put next to it?
Also - look at the pre-release frenzy before every wave - Arvel was hailed as brilliant and amazing before people actually started using him.

There will always be multiple tier cards - and the position of those cards can change place - Imagine in a future meta that there is such a flood of stress stuff released - that PTL becomes a very bad choice to take. Cards have counters, and even the terrible cards have use somewhere - and as the game goes on, their niche may become more distinct. Already - if we compare an A-wing Pre and Post Rebel Aces - we can have a Green squad with PTL for 22 points - Vs, Green squad with PTL, Expose and refit, for 24 points, it's as if we now have a 2 point version of expose, from a certain point of view. (Let's not get into the argument of what you could take over that 4 points of expose...)

Part of the game is in valuing cards, part of the game is also in the casual world - where Arvel is awesome if you want to run him as green leader when you do a battle of Endor. Not every card needs to be great.

Let me be clear - I am not saying that FFG should run out and design terrible cards - just that it's inevitable that all cards can't be equally awesome.

See. Your argument is great in games like Magic the Gathering. But even then, I feel like that's somewhat contrived to justify their business model.

But in a game like X-Wing, where there still only a few dozen different cards, yes, every single card should be at least decently viable. Of course there are going to be some slightly worse/better cards. But the entire (and I mean entire) point of a points system for list construction is to make everything as close as they can get between effectiveness and cost. Otherwise why bother?

I think that small tweaks to every unbalanced card would completely open up the play possibilities.

Let's take off a point or two from all tie advanced's. Let's give an EPT to Gray Squadrons and Red Squadrons. Let's make opportunist (and probably marksmen cost only two). Etc.

Several of the cards are clearly over/underpriced relative to the rest of the game pieces.

There's no reason for such blatant discrepancies if their play testing and development are really that good.

Reputation for balanced design?

Please explain the following:

Arvel - ability is completely useless

Wrath - ability is almost completely useless

Opportunist - 4 downsides for one upside

Push the Limit - so good that almost no other EPTs were worth using for about two waves

Maarek - nearly useless

Need I go on?

I think it's very likely that the Proton Rockets were designed to be worth running on an A-wing in the post-Aces metagame; as far as I can tell, you think it's very likely that the designers failed to notice that the Refit made it less attractive for A-wings to run missiles. I think FFG gets far more right than they get wrong with this game, and you seem to think it's lucky that anything at all works right.

Those axioms seem incommensurable, so we clearly don't have much to say to one another.

And what I've seen, is that there are some very, very disparate views on what is "balance". Some were looking at the Top 8 at Worlds, and decrying about lack of variety, which was utter hogwash if you truly analyzed the squad contstruction.

Let's take Expose. I would never use. But I have seen many players advocate it's usage. If it was a truly terrible card, there would be no one to champion it's usage. Instead, it comes down to playstyle. Not every player is a Math Winger. Some don't care if Target Lock or Focus is better on attack results than another attack die. And that is okay. Not all the cards are super optimized. Some may be sub optimal to other upgrades, but appeal to a certain playstyle, rather than the metagame. And some cards have extremely niche usages (see Fel's Wrath).

This does not call for a massive recosting of cards. This game still has an extremely low amount of "bad" cards, if a few more niche cards than you might like.

AndOne.....wow. You are clearly playing a different game than me. All the people I play this game with literally think it's the best game they play. You make it sound like the game is pretty terrible, but you have to put up with it. I don't understand your negativity.

I also don't understand your insistence that you are right with literally zero experience with this yet. You keep asking everyone to prove that your statements are wrong, but I'd like you to go out and compile a small sample of 10-20 playtest reports with the new cards and show that you have some experience to back up your assertion.

I mean, seriously, EVERYONE agreed A-wings were overcosted. Now you want to complain that they ruined it by making it cheaper?

And what I've seen, is that there are some very, very disparate views on what is "balance". Some were looking at the Top 8 at Worlds, and decrying about lack of variety, which was utter hogwash if you truly analyzed the squad contstruction.

Let's take Expose. I would never use. But I have seen many players advocate it's usage. If it was a truly terrible card, there would be no one to champion it's usage. Instead, it comes down to playstyle. Not every player is a Math Winger. Some don't care if Target Lock or Focus is better on attack results than another attack die. And that is okay. Not all the cards are super optimized. Some may be sub optimal to other upgrades, but appeal to a certain playstyle, rather than the metagame. And some cards have extremely niche usages (see Fel's Wrath).

This does not call for a massive recosting of cards. This game still has an extremely low amount of "bad" cards, if a few more niche cards than you might like.

I'm squarely in the camp that Expose is a bad card, and I can't ever see myself running it. However, I also have had my butt handed to me by a well-flown squad that featured a defensive Biggs and....Wedge with Expose. It can happen, and for the guy running it, he was certainly happy with his choice of Expose. Nevertheless, it's an objectively bad card, even if it's fun and powerful only when the Force is with you.

We will have more variety of choices for all players now, and everyone should remember that this is not just a tournament game. Not even MOSTLY a tournament game. More customizability within reason is a positive for the game.

There you go again, Vorpal, making a straw man of my argument.

I agree that this is one of the best games I've ever played. And I absolutely love every moment I'm playing it.

But it is possible for me to love the game overall and still think that there is plenty of room for improvement.

Out of all the unique pilots currently legal, how many of those actually see competitive play? 50%?

There is always room for improvement. And in a game where tweaking points values by one or two can make a big difference, there is no reason not to do so.

Reputation for balanced design?

Please explain the following:

Arvel - ability is completely useless

Wrath - ability is almost completely useless

Opportunist - 4 downsides for one upside

Push the Limit - so good that almost no other EPTs were worth using for about two waves

Maarek - nearly useless

Need I go on?

The fact that there are probably a dozen upgrades/ships that are absolutely never used outside of fun theme lists does not give me confidence in the play testing and design team on this game.

Just because the 6 good ships/builds that work are fairly balanced against themselves does not mean the game is balanced overall.

Wow. Have you ever even played another game more than twice? Those cards you listed may be sub-par, but they are far from "completely useless". Most people seem to consider X-Wing one of the best balanced miniature games out there.

GW has, on occasion, produced units for their armies that cost more than 10% of the average army size and that made the army WORSE. They have published some armies that automatically lost on the first turn because of a rules loophole. Even when they are doing things well the difference in capabilities between the best unit in an army and the worst is around 10 times greater than between the best and worst cards in X-Wing.

Other companies are better but not as good as X-Wing. Song of Blades and Heroes, I tabled a guy with one shot on the first turn. I've played games where, after playing for an hour your fleets were so beat up that there was only about a 1% chance of damaging the enemy each turn.

I've played hundreds of games and without a doubt this is one of the best balanced.

So, when unique pilots are under-represented, introducing a GOOD unique pilot like Farlander is bad? And allowing several Unique A-wing pilots to suddenly become potentially viable through cost reduction and double EPTs is also bad?

Out of all the unique pilots currently legal, how many of those actually see competitive play? 50%?

I count about 35-36 unique pilots currently tourney legal, with 24 of them possibly seeing inclusion in tourney lists. So 66%. And of the remaining 33%, only 2-3 of them are really BAD, the rest are just sub-optimal, or in other words, average.

Heck, last week we had 12-13 different named pilots in 1 tourney. 33% of the possible pool in a single event, and I don't think there was a single Howlrunner, Mauler, Han, or Soontir there.

Had a thought last night/this morning.

I think Z-95's can maybe become the new missile carrier of choice. But if that's true it could be due to the same reason that Tie Swarms work so well. They have more dice.

You can put down 6 Bandit pilots w/CM's for 96 points. That's 24 dice in one turn, which can turn blanks into hits. Vs 3 GSP w/PtL & CM's (and one other ship), that's 12 dice, maybe 16 if you include a Z-95 with another CM.

The GPS has the advantage of being able to TL+F in one turn, so they'll land more hits per attack on avg. But I'm thinking the Z's will do more damage over all by sheer weight of more dice, just like Tie Swarms.

So I'd be curious if someone could run the maths for it.

6 attacks of 4 dice vs 3 defense dice w/Focus

3 attacks of 4 dice w/Focus vs 3 defense dice w/Focus

What's the avg damage per attack, when you factor in converting a blank to a hit.

Without focus you're average dice does .5 damage -.375 damage for each defense dice.

So on a 4 dice attack you'll deal 2.5 damage with an automatic hit on a blank(on average) with the defender pulling off between .375 to .575 damage per defense dice. So 4 defense dice would cut off 2.3 damage per attack assuming a focus token. I should start tracking the statistics of my games...

Also, rebels have no jonus or howl runner to really leverage the extra dice.

There you go again, Vorpal, making a straw man of my argument.

This fork of the conversation started because I said (paraphrasing) that it was very unlikely that FFG is releasing a missile--in an expansion with a repainted A-wing, and prominently featuring an A-wing in the art--that is made obsolete on the A-wing by another card in the very same expansion.

In response, you disagreed strongly with the idea that the game is reasonably well balanced, and provided a number of examples of what you think are useless or nearly useless game elements, with the suggestion that there is a large number of additional examples you could use. The tone and content of that post together strongly imply that you think the overall game balance in X-wing is bad.

If it's a straw man, it's an unintentional one. So I'll back up for a moment, and accept arguendo that I've mischaracterized your post. But if that's the case, I'm at a loss: how else do I interpret a list of (what you perceive as) design mistakes in response to an assertion that it would be hard for FFG to miss the way the Refit would affect missiles? If I'm making a straw man of your point, then I don't understand your point at all.

I think FFG has done a wonderful job balancing the game. And I think you'll have a hard time finding a single card that is 100% useless. Lets start with EPTs

Adrenaline Rush - imo the best 1 point card because it gives you the early game edge if K turn is your best ability.

Deadeye - For those that shoot missiles/torps with just a TL, this is great, since they're typically low PS anyways (GSP comes to mind). They can shoot a high PS opponent on the opening salvo.

Determination - it can get rid of damage.

DTF - Luke+R2D2... Need I say more? Also useful on Black squadrons to keep crits away from Howl and other expensive ships.

VI - 2PS for 1 point? Not bad considering you pay 1 point per normally

Elusiveness - Decent on people that just can't take crits. Also useful on a defensive Ibby since not only does it stress her allowing her to reroll her own die, but it can potentially get rid of a hit, coupled with SJ can potentially get rid of 2 hits.

EH - allows a ship to BR that couldn't otherwise. Oh, and removes TLs as well, great against ordnance fleets or PTL F+TL ships.

SL - hands out an action to a lower person... great for getting the TL on a higher PS person than your ordnance ship is. Also great for getting off asteroids or last minute adjustments

ST - allows you to shoot before you normally would, great!

DD - Typically only used on Vader due to his two actions, but will now be useful on Tycho (not to mention the occasional B wing w/ AdvS) for some serious maneuverability

Marks - great when combined with cluster/gunner. Not bad by itself, though maybe a bit overcosted. Synergizes well with lots of pilots

PTL - great card that's going to see some reduced usage due to all of the new stress mechanics being introduced into the game

Expose - was never really worth taking on anyone except potentially vader. However, the new double EPT will make it viable, if not downright great on a GSP. 24 points for a PS3 X wing with the A wing dial? With an optional 3rd defense die, as well as more action choices? Sign me up.

Opportunist - A great way to boost the GSP's dice throws without suffering from a loss of defense dice.

Droids:

R2 - Gives an X wing 4 green maneuvers that it previously didn't have, and a Y wing 6. Not bad for 1 point in a stress heavy world

R5 - fix a crit? Okay!

R3-A2 - Hand out a stress for the cost of a stress (and 2 points?) Okay, just don't put it on a Y wing =P

R5-K6 - Synergizes well with Dutch, and now Hobbie. Not a bad PTL-lite

R2-F2 - Increased agility... Not bad if you're taking lots of hits. Even better if you can couple it with a focus token.

R5-D8 - Would be better if it wasn't an action, but a Y wing is durable enough that it can break off from the fight and heal itself up and then come back into the fray with full hull

R7-T1 - free mini boost when taking a TL? Not a bad PTL-lite. And a cheap way to get a boost on a X/Y wing

R2-D2 - Free shields? Yummy!

Crew? Sure...

IA - Info is great, especially if you're running a mobile blocking squad

Nien Nunb - More greens? Potentially turning a red into a green? Sure!

Merc Copilot - Sorta like marks, but cheaper and only from r3... stacks though.

Saboteur - 360 action to flip a damage card up? Not bad, it's really funny when you do that to chewy and he loses his pilot ability

C3PO - Guarantee that you get at least 1 evade result, sure! I'm not too sure about the cost though.

Navigator - Couples well with IA for blocking, or on high PS ships for avoiding being blocked

Recon Spec - 2 focuses for the cost of 1? Now I no longer have to decide if I want to use it on O or keep it for D.

Weapons Engineer - 2 TL for the cost of 1? It sets up a TL+F attack every other turn, and gives me the opportunity to attack a different ship in case my primarily target is no longer available

Flight Instructor - Great against swarms for keeping your ship alive longer. Not bad against everything else either

R2-D2 - Not as good as his droid counterpart, but could be useful

Gunner - Great for actually hitting those pesky TIES

Luke - Even better for actually hitting those pesky TIES

Rebel Captive - I always like handing out stress

Darth Vader - Free crit? Never a bad thing, especially against those pesky shieldless TIEs

Ordnance - overall comment on great for taking out a big ship early in the game. I'm not going to bother going through all of the missiles, or secondary weapons.

Which then brings us to Pilots, I'm not going to discuss the generics because the PS2/4 are very similar, but you're paying 2 points for 2 PS. And by saying a generic is not useful is saying that the ship itself is not useful.

Biggs - Great for protecting better ships

Garven - Free actions are always nice

Luke - Great end game closer due to his ability (especially if paired with R2D2)

Wedge - Destroyer of everything big and small, who doesn't like Wedge? I guess the guy on the other side of the table

Dutch - Free actions are always nice

Salm - Great torpedo platform since he can reroll his blanks, and then focuses turn into crits anyways.

Arvel - Just got much better being able to take a EPT (DD anyone?) and force crashes

Tycho - Keeps getting better whenever they announce some stress inducing ability

Chewy - YT ez-mode. Crit free means you'll never have to worry about the ship being anything besides alive/dead

Lando - free actions are always nice

Han - Free rerolls are even better. Prevent yourself from getting screwed by the (red) dice

Ibby - Dangerous machine, playing the fine line between liking stress and hating stress

Ten - Auto damage? Nevertheless auto crit? I thought only Vader could do that!!!

Night beast - free actions are always nice

Winged Gundark - free crits are nice too

Backstabber - Interceptor lite but for less points

Dark Curse - Say what? You want to shoot me? That's fine, but you can't hit me

Mauler Mithel - Free crits are nice, but extra dice are even better

Howlrunner - Makes swarms warm and fuzzy

Maarek - don't you hate it when you finally get a crit through, just for it to be a muitions failure and the person doesn't have any secondary weapons? Well not anymore! Now you can always select the most damaging crit to deal out!

Vader - Want PTL but don't want stress? Take Vader. Heck, take Vader + PTL to get THREE actions, no one else can do that (short of them being handed out)

Fel's Wrath - Not a bad PS5 interceptor. And his ability can play psychological games that keeps him alive even longer than he would normally... yes, his ability can be "wasted" but so can the points you pay to upgrade from PS2 to PS4, so...

Turr - Now you see me, now you don't... This guy is great at peek a boo

Fel - How many tokens shall I deal out this turn? 1? 2? 3? Nah, let's go with 4 (too bad one's a stress).

Krassis - HLC anyone?

Kath - Your choice - want a crit or a stress?

Boba - What! You went there? Why'd you go there? Oh well, I'll just change my dial and go here. Now you die.

Jonas - Bom... I mean, Missiles away my minions!

Rhymer - I snipe you with this APT. You die.

Yorr - No need to fear the stress, I'll take it and then just mosy about with a 1 forward anyways

Jendon - Free candy for all!

Kagi - Biggs for ordnance. Except you waste your ordnance points shooting him instead of the TIEs going with him.

I'm not listing the Rebel/Imp ace pilots since I haven't played with them. I did list opportunist because I've theorycrafted a decent bit with it (and am excited to try it out tonight).

There you go again, Vorpal, making a straw man of my argument.

This fork of the conversation started because I said (paraphrasing) that it was very unlikely that FFG is releasing a missile--in an expansion with a repainted A-wing, and prominently featuring an A-wing in the art--that is made obsolete on the A-wing by another card in the very same expansion.

In response, you disagreed strongly with the idea that the game is reasonably well balanced, and provided a number of examples of what you think are useless or nearly useless game elements, with the suggestion that there is a large number of additional examples you could use. The tone and content of that post together strongly imply that you think the overall game balance in X-wing is bad.

If it's a straw man, it's an unintentional one. So I'll back up for a moment, and accept arguendo that I've mischaracterized your post. But if that's the case, I'm at a loss: how else do I interpret a list of (what you perceive as) design mistakes in response to an assertion that it would be hard for FFG to miss the way the Refit would affect missiles? If I'm making a straw man of your point, then I don't understand your point at all.

AndOne is rehashing what he/she tried to "prove" in the Rebel Aces news thread. I wish he/she wouldn't muck up yet another thread about it (although this one is more appropriate for that discussion than the news thread is, it's already in the other one).

I ran the numbers and with Khyros's help fixing my mistakes I came up with the following values for A-Wings vs Z-95's and Concussion Missiles.

My idea was that Z-95 being able to fire 6 CM's without focus is still better then 3 GSP's with Focus vs Tie Fighters/Interceptors with 3 Defense dice.

6 Missiles w/No Focus vs Focus = 5.82 damage

3 Missiles w/Focus vs Focus = 5.475 damage

6 Missiles w/No Focus vs Evade = 4.8 damage

3 Missiles w/Focus vs Evade = 4.77 damage

6 Missiles w/No Focus vs No Focus = 9.66 damage

3 Missiles w/Focus vs No Focus = 7.68 damage

So the advantage is with the Z-95 even if it doesn't have focus to use on it's attacks.