I wonder if the moderators should just put a moratorium on these sorts of threads, both this one and the one I started about Force users and game balance. Right now, the only folks that have the real information have signed NDAs, and nothing constructive has come out of these threads, which have largely devolved into pissing matches on both sides of the fence.

Maybe so for this thread, but I think we have enough Force mechanics in existence between Edge and AoR to consider whether Force-users already affect game balance compared to mundanes.

I actually enjoyed this thread, but I see what you are getting at Donovan, there does seem to be the creeping spectre of edition wars looming over it.

I had eggs benedict with asparagus, swiss cheese and rosemary this morning.

I think I have to explain why I mentioned having asparagus. You see, donovan mentioned 'pissing matches', so I mentioned eating asparagus, because of the chemical change it makes to the smell of ones urine.

I think that was missed by some. I was not randomly listing what I have eaten. This does, quite possibly, prove that many of you should add more vegatables to your diet, as I thought this fact was common knowledge.

So discussing possibilities of Careers and Specializations again....

Again I still think we will get some standard Careers without Force Rating specializations, though they may arrange multiple careers to have Force Rating specialization options available to them, I do think we will have a Jedi Career, with specializations that differentiate them from one another.

Since the game like EotE and AoR will almost certainly be set in the time of the Empire, Jedi background could easily be padawan learners that lost their masters, Jedi that failed in their trials, force sensitive prodigies, Jedi who abandoned the Jedi code for some reason(love, revenge, grief, madness), Galaxy is a big place perhaps they were lost in the expanse, Or ultimately we know that the Force is a hereditary trait as well, what is to say Mace Windu's second sisters, 3rd boy didn't inherit the gift.

The movies tell us the Luke is not yet a Knight until he faces Vader for the second time(ie his Jedi Trials and a part of his heroes journey, to become a Knight), Perhaps when Yoda refers to Luke and Leia as the last two he is simply referring to the last two capable of bringing about a foreseen destiny in which Vader kills the Emperor(and not the last two Jedi), thus creating a future in which the Jedi are no longer hunted and allowed to flourish once again. We already know Rebels is going to have a Former Jedi and a second force sensitive prodigy. The EU is filled with references to Jedi surviving Order 66.

So discussing possibilities of Careers and Specializations again....

Again I still think we will get some standard Careers without Force Rating specializations, though they may arrange multiple careers to have Force Rating specialization options available to them, I do think we will have a Jedi Career, with specializations that differentiate them from one another.

Since the game like EotE and AoR will almost certainly be set in the time of the Empire, Jedi background could easily be padawan learners that lost their masters, Jedi that failed in their trials, force sensitive prodigies, Jedi who abandoned the Jedi code for some reason(love, revenge, grief, madness), Galaxy is a big place perhaps they were lost in the expanse, Or ultimately we know that the Force is a hereditary trait as well, what is to say Mace Windu's second sisters, 3rd boy didn't inherit the gift.

The movies tell us the Luke is not yet a Knight until he faces Vader for the second time(ie his Jedi Trials and a part of his heroes journey, to become a Knight), Perhaps when Yoda refers to Luke and Leia as the last two he is simply referring to the last two capable of bringing about a foreseen destiny in which Vader kills the Emperor(and not the last two Jedi), thus creating a future in which the Jedi are no longer hunted and allowed to flourish once again. We already know Rebels is going to have a Former Jedi and a second force sensitive prodigy. The EU is filled with references to Jedi surviving Order 66.

"When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."-Yoda

Yes, there are plenty of Force sensitives out there (and many become members of Luke's New Jedi Order), but there are no Jedi survivors running around fighting in the Rebellion (other than Luke) during this period. The Jedi in the upcoming Rebels series, Kanan, will definitely be killed off long before Episode IV takes place.

Eh, Yoda was being a drama queen. You're trying to spin that in all the wide galaxy, only one Jedi remains? Not buying it. Yoda was putting the pressure on Luke.

Fibbing he was.

Fibbing in hindsight, maybe. All sources that describe Jedi active during the Empire era were written years after the release of the OT, after all.

Eh, Yoda was being a drama queen. You're trying to spin that in all the wide galaxy, only one Jedi remains? Not buying it. Yoda was putting the pressure on Luke.

Fibbing he was.

The evidence to date doesn't support your assertion. There is obviously plenty of evidence of there being Force Sensitives throughout the galaxy, but full-fledged Jedi in this time period?

Not so much. Luke is it.

That's kind of the crux of the entire original trilogy: Luke redeeming his father to become a Jedi and thus restoring the Jedi to the galaxy.

I'm surprised at all the assumptions that F&D won't have Jedi (or Jedi-specific) classes because there weren't any during the galactic civil war. It had been my understanding that EotE, AoR, and F&D were not only seperate games (designed to work in tandem), but that they also technically covered different timelines.

Edge of the Empire takes place shortly after A New Hope. I would imagine that Age of Rebellion takes place after The Empire Strikes Back, at the heart of the conflict. That would leave Force & Destiny to occur after Return of the Jedi, when Luke Skywalker is working to restore the Jedi Order, so it would make perfect sense to have only Force-based careers and specializations.

Fibbing in hindsight, maybe. All sources that describe Jedi active during the Empire era were written years after the release of the OT, after all.

And almost all (if not all) of the Jedi active during the "Imperial" era occur after the destruction of the Second Death Star and Luke's efforts to restore the Jedi Order. Heck, even Kyle Katarn doesn't go on the path to becoming a Jedi until over a year after the Battle of Endor.

I'm surprised at all the assumptions that F&D won't have Jedi (or Jedi-specific) classes because there weren't any during the galactic civil war. It had been my understanding that EotE, AoR, and F&D were not only seperate games (designed to work in tandem), but that they also technically covered different timelines.

Edge of the Empire takes place shortly after A New Hope. I would imagine that Age of Rebellion takes place after The Empire Strikes Back, at the heart of the conflict. That would leave Force & Destiny to occur after Return of the Jedi, when Luke Skywalker is working to restore the Jedi Order, so it would make perfect sense to have only Force-based careers and specializations.

I've seen nothing to suggest that EotE = A New Hope, AoR = Empire Strikes Back, and FaD = Return of the Jedi. That may be the case, but that's news to me.

Also, it would not make perfect sense for have only Force-based careers and specializations. Maybe if this were set during the Old Republic, but it's not. Also, FaD is supposed to be a stand-alone system as well--it's precisely because of that why it will have non-Force using careers.

Fibbing in hindsight, maybe. All sources that describe Jedi active during the Empire era were written years after the release of the OT, after all.

And almost all (if not all) of the Jedi active during the "Imperial" era occur after the destruction of the Second Death Star and Luke's efforts to restore the Jedi Order. Heck, even Kyle Katarn doesn't go on the path to becoming a Jedi until over a year after the Battle of Endor.

There are a lot of (presently) canon sources describing full-fledged surviving Jedi operating in the Empire era, pre-Yavin. Mostly graphic novels.

Fibbing in hindsight, maybe. All sources that describe Jedi active during the Empire era were written years after the release of the OT, after all.

And almost all (if not all) of the Jedi active during the "Imperial" era occur after the destruction of the Second Death Star and Luke's efforts to restore the Jedi Order. Heck, even Kyle Katarn doesn't go on the path to becoming a Jedi until over a year after the Battle of Endor.

There are a lot of (presently) canon sources describing full-fledged surviving Jedi operating in the Empire era, pre-Yavin. Mostly graphic novels.

Right. It takes the Empire a long time to hunt down all the remaining Jedi after Order 66. But there are not any full-fledged Jedi (outside Yoda and Obi-Wan) from A New Hope onward. Which is the era that FFG is currently operating in. The whole spirit of the classic era (for lack of a better term) is one in which the Jedi are all but extinguished (which Luke being the last hope to restore them).

I doubt FFG is going to deviate too much from that perspective. I seriously doubt we're going to see careers and specializations laying out full-fledged Jedi Knight characters in FaD. In fact, the more I hear/see that argument, the more ludicrous it becomes (not saying you're espousing that argument).

I think there's this idea that FaD is going to go all SWTOR with Jedi swinging lightsabers everywhere...when the likelihood is that it's simply just going to open up more Force powers and a stronger Force-Sensitive specialization to build off Emergent and Exile.

I've seen nothing to suggest that EotE = A New Hope, AoR = Empire Strikes Back, and FaD = Return of the Jedi. That may be the case, but that's news to me.

Also, it would not make perfect sense for have only Force-based careers and specializations. Maybe if this were set during the Old Republic, but it's not. Also, FaD is supposed to be a stand-alone system as well--it's precisely because of that why it will have non-Force using careers.

The books are set around the original trilogy. EotE specifically references events from A New Hope. AoR hasn't released in CB form yet so we don't know what the fluff will reference. Could be the same, could be different. Same for F&D.

And I don't think anyone feels there will be nothing but Force careers. The question is how many? At least one, possibly as many as three or four. Any guess is good.

Right. It takes the Empire a long time to hunt down all the remaining Jedi after Order 66. But there are not any full-fledged Jedi (outside Yoda and Obi-Wan) from A New Hope onward. Which is the era that FFG is currently operating in. The whole spirit of the classic era (for lack of a better term) is one in which the Jedi are all but extinguished (which Luke being the last hope to restore them).

I doubt FFG is going to deviate too much from that perspective. I seriously doubt we're going to see careers and specializations laying out full-fledged Jedi Knight characters in FaD. In fact, the more I hear/see that argument, the more ludicrous it becomes (not saying you're espousing that argument).

I think there's this idea that FaD is going to go all SWTOR with Jedi swinging lightsabers everywhere...when the likelihood is that it's simply just going to open up more Force powers and a stronger Force-Sensitive specialization to build off Emergent and Exile.

Except that this is a game based on Star Wars. And people are going to want to play characters like Yoda and Obi-Wan. Characters that started out with the Force and are still using it, even if they don't start at such power levels. They do not want to be curtailed by movies and what was presented there, they want to be the stars of their own story. The movies are not the be all and end all for the game. FFG is using the OT as a reference for their games, but they are not afraid to go outside of it.

So while in the movies Luke "may" have been the last Jedi, in the game maybe you are or some other player. Maybe Order 66 missed you because you hid, or you stopped being a practicing Jedi and went into another trade, or maybe you continued to fight are now a legend yourself. Maybe your father was a Jedi that went into hiding but taught you to be one. There are so many stories other than Luke's. And each one will be told in each game.

So F&D will give options. More ways to be Force Sensitive than just some more specs. Force careers, specs, talents, powers, all will be in F&D. Any less because "There weren't any other Jedi during the OT" and they may as well just do a supplement like Enter the Unknown or Dangerous Covenants with a couple more specs and stuff and call it a day.

Right. It takes the Empire a long time to hunt down all the remaining Jedi after Order 66. But there are not any full-fledged Jedi (outside Yoda and Obi-Wan) from A New Hope onward. Which is the era that FFG is currently operating in. The whole spirit of the classic era (for lack of a better term) is one in which the Jedi are all but extinguished (which Luke being the last hope to restore them).

I doubt FFG is going to deviate too much from that perspective. I seriously doubt we're going to see careers and specializations laying out full-fledged Jedi Knight characters in FaD. In fact, the more I hear/see that argument, the more ludicrous it becomes (not saying you're espousing that argument).

I think there's this idea that FaD is going to go all SWTOR with Jedi swinging lightsabers everywhere...when the likelihood is that it's simply just going to open up more Force powers and a stronger Force-Sensitive specialization to build off Emergent and Exile.

Any less because "There weren't any other Jedi during the OT" and they may as well just do a supplement like Enter the Unknown or Dangerous Covenants with a couple more specs and stuff and call it a day.

We can only hope they choose that route.

You'll get something Jedi, whether it be a failed one or one in hiding, and as a starting character. I doubt their power levels will be on par with what would be considered a Knight that has finished his/her training.

Grist for the mill...

...what if we got existing classes with new specializations? Like...Marauder with a "Guardian" spec (plus one or two other new specs)? Or Diplomat with a "Consular" spec (plus one or two other new specs)? Or Bounty Hunter with a new "Force Hunter" spec? Or a "Natural" spec for the Pilot class.

Guardian was a duelist-focused specialization, catering to light melee weapons. Consular has a lot of "reading body language," speaking in calming ways, soothing emotions stuff.

And then, "Jedi" was a universal specialization that could be purchased that added the lightsaber skill and an additional tree. If your GM allowed it, you could buy it at character creation, but most likely you would have to purchase into it. But then, there's that "Jensarri" universal spec., and that "Dathomir Witch" universal spec. All of which are cool.

As to species, my guesses are Human, Twi'lek, Zabrak, Kel Dor, Cerean, Miraluka and Droid.

A few power suggestions here.

What do you think about a pair of possible powers based on Commit 3 or 4 and you don't loose Strain due to your actions (based on the strain description about Jedis on the book 220-221) or another one like Commit 3 and grant 1 pip to fuel, maybe upgradable to Commit 2.

Sigh... I really can't wait for the force and destiny beta, if for no other reason, than to end this pointless bickering.

It's easy enough to look away if you don't like the way the discussion is going. I read through it every so often, even though I'm not into making speculations of my own, just to see how divergent we fans can be on expectations for this product.

There's a huge group of people that want to play this game only as a Jedi. Considering the amount of people playing Old Republic and having more than my share of 'all-Jedi' parties in Saga Edition, I'm expecting Force and Destiny to cater to these people.

It would be absolutely stupid for them not to. The sheer amount of books that would sell- to people even not interested in RPGs- is staggering. To me, EOTE and AOR appeal to more hardcore gamers. Fantasy Flight has delightful art and lots of background in their books. It would be a sin of marketing NOT to have a book just about running a game with a 'Jedi party'

So my imagining is somehow they're just going to do it like this:

6 careers, 3 specializations each. 5 of them will be all the standard Jedi offshoots we've come to expect. One career will be for the 'Destinied" characters like Han Solo or R2D2, who have to be bad ass enough to hang around with Luke and Co and be fun to play. They'll be pumped up with abilities to use the Destiny pool like anyone's business.

You're going to supposed to play the game with all Force Sensitives. Let's not kid ourselves, this is a concept that is easy to sell to any group of players. Hardcore RPers might groan, but it will be a hit at conventions.

They're going to use the 'It's a different game' excuse for any balance issues. I think they'll -try- to make it compatible with AOR and EOTE, but in the end if a Jedi Master is more powerful than a Hired Gun..that's really what they're going to say. I mean, it's been almost 30 years of Star Wars RPG and they haven't solved the Jedi vs Norms problem, I don't think it's going to be solved in this edition either.

Ultimately Fantasy Flight is a smart company, and smart companies these days use a practice called 'market segmenting' by dividing customers into markets and then serving them individually and separately. That would be the smart play with "Force And Destiny". Cater to the Jedi fanwanks, and completely ignore everyone else by saying "Hey guys, we made 2 separate games for you, deal."

So my imagining is somehow they're just going to do it like this:

6 careers, 3 specializations each. 5 of them will be all the standard Jedi offshoots we've come to expect. One career will be for the 'Destinied" characters like Han Solo or R2D2, who have to be bad ass enough to hang around with Luke and Co and be fun to play. They'll be pumped up with abilities to use the Destiny pool like anyone's business.

I don't think that "Destined" is something that should be a career. This game already shows us what to expect of "badass heroes" in the Signature Abilities that are being introduced in Enter the Unknown and Dangerous Covenants. These typically focus on using Destiny Points to activate high-end effects that most characters in the setting can only dream about.

Just take speculations as some way to strees out XD No need to be so critic or worry about people comments.

This post is a way to relax our minds talking about theories and ideas (some of them really ones posted there).

If you wish can we speak about Moraband too XDDD

There's a huge group of people that want to play this game only as a Jedi. Considering the amount of people playing Old Republic and having more than my share of 'all-Jedi' parties in Saga Edition, I'm expecting Force and Destiny to cater to these people.

It would be absolutely stupid for them not to. The sheer amount of books that would sell- to people even not interested in RPGs- is staggering. To me, EOTE and AOR appeal to more hardcore gamers. Fantasy Flight has delightful art and lots of background in their books. It would be a sin of marketing NOT to have a book just about running a game with a 'Jedi party'

So my imagining is somehow they're just going to do it like this:

6 careers, 3 specializations each. 5 of them will be all the standard Jedi offshoots we've come to expect. One career will be for the 'Destinied" characters like Han Solo or R2D2, who have to be bad ass enough to hang around with Luke and Co and be fun to play. They'll be pumped up with abilities to use the Destiny pool like anyone's business.

You're going to supposed to play the game with all Force Sensitives. Let's not kid ourselves, this is a concept that is easy to sell to any group of players. Hardcore RPers might groan, but it will be a hit at conventions.

They're going to use the 'It's a different game' excuse for any balance issues. I think they'll -try- to make it compatible with AOR and EOTE, but in the end if a Jedi Master is more powerful than a Hired Gun..that's really what they're going to say. I mean, it's been almost 30 years of Star Wars RPG and they haven't solved the Jedi vs Norms problem, I don't think it's going to be solved in this edition either.

Ultimately Fantasy Flight is a smart company, and smart companies these days use a practice called 'market segmenting' by dividing customers into markets and then serving them individually and separately. That would be the smart play with "Force And Destiny". Cater to the Jedi fanwanks, and completely ignore everyone else by saying "Hey guys, we made 2 separate games for you, deal."

That's nice and all and those are very good arguments for why FaD may be more Force-heavy than I or others would like. But you went off the rails a bit when you started speculating on the careers. Each game (EotE, AoR, and FaD) is supposed to be capable of being stand-alone. For that very reason, there is absolutely no way they're going to create 5 different Jedi (or Force) careers.

What they may do is have a couple of Force-oriented careers and then follow up with a Career Sourcebook (like Dangerous Covenants and Enter the Unknown) to expand on them. I will guarantee that they have careers available that allow the Han Solo's, Lando Calrissian's, Chewbacca's, and Leia Organa's (a latent Force Sensitive) of the galaxy to be played alongside the Luke Skywalker's.

You can put that in the bank.

I also don't buy the argument that they won't solve the "Jedi are more powerful" than others problem. FFG knows what they're doing and I suspect that because of the way this system is designed, one could easily offset the power of the Jedi. One way is making each talent/Force power cost double the amount of experience that a talent costs a 'mundane' character.

In fact, I hope that's exactly what they do.