Yeah. Not really a fan of how they handled the Chaardan Refit.

They really limit build diversity by making it take a missile slot.

Missiles are half the reason to take GSP/PtL.

It clearly should be a modification card - even the word refit seems to support this...

I must say I hate power creep. And both PS7 pilot are... incredible.

Jake Ferrel has not just been given a free action, but an action outside of A-wings repertoire: A barrel roll as a bonus. Surely there is a card which gives +1 attack too as Interceptors have that also? (ok, that was sarcasm)

And Farlander... Practically white K-turn. Only better. Continuous looper if there are targets, + focus for attack on top. Uuh, whatever. normally you have to PAY to get rid of some nasty negative effect, he gets rewarded if he decides to throw away the stress token. (Gee, should I? That's a tough one...)

I play 50-50 on both sides, but to explain my utterly negative attitude here: I used to play Magic the Gathering several years ago, but I got fed up after they mixed the colors (Ray of command <-> Act of Treason for example) there was very little difference between opposite sides. That game went dull grey. Now after seeing Rebel swarm incoming, rebel Interceptor, rebel TIE Defender (if it even has the rumored white-K, I doubt) I'm starting to feel unconcerned.

I actually liked Imperial Aces expansion; there were no pilots that were mindblowing, just different (and really tricky to use succesfully without biting your own nose) but after seeing the Transport's pilots universally great skills and this expansion with again astonishingly great skills... I don't know what to think.

The color pie is still very much alive, it's just shifted around a bit. Certainly nothing on the level of Planar Chaos. Either way, it has nothing to do with 'power creep.'

I've been debating with myself whether this new announcement amounts to power creep or not, and I'm leaning toward not. B-Wings have been popular since their release, but I'm not sure I've seen people use anything but Blues or Daggers in a competitive setting. If these new ships were costed the same, then yeah, that's some pretty obvious power creep - but they aren't. What I think we're actually seeing is FFG steer the meta towards fewer, more expensive ships. The price of the Wave 4 ships seems to bear that out.

Meanwhile, we have the new A-Wing accessories making an old ship that sees little use actually playable. When people obsess about how unfair it is that Rebels will be able to field a swarm, they seem to forget the one thing that actually makes the TIE swarm so meta defining (see how I'm avoiding the word 'powerful'); Howlrunner. Until Rebels get a Howl equivalent, no Rebel swarm will come close the dominance of an Imperial one.

Yeah. Not really a fan of how they handled the Chaardan Refit.

They really limit build diversity by making it take a missile slot.

Missiles are half the reason to take GSP/PtL.

It clearly should be a modification card - even the word refit seems to support this...

The idea is that the Refit did away with that bulky missile silo, allowing for a more streamlined ship.

Yeah. Not really a fan of how they handled the Chaardan Refit.

They really limit build diversity by making it take a missile slot.

Missiles are half the reason to take GSP/PtL.

It clearly should be a modification card - even the word refit seems to support this...

The idea is that the Refit did away with that bulky missile silo, allowing for a more streamlined ship.

Is that actually from the fluff or just your (reasonable sounding) gut? Merely curious.

The second B Wing pilots name looks like Palso Thern. Any ideas on what he might do based on fluff?

There was an action figure of him released a few years ago. He's a pale skinned blonde dude. As for the A-wing pilot...not sure who that could be. Sila Kott, Tycho, Arvel, and Jake Ferrell were the only ones I knew of.

Yeah. Not really a fan of how they handled the Chaardan Refit.

They really limit build diversity by making it take a missile slot.

Missiles are half the reason to take GSP/PtL.

It clearly should be a modification card - even the word refit seems to support this...

The idea is that the Refit did away with that bulky missile silo, allowing for a more streamlined ship.

Is that actually from the fluff or just your (reasonable sounding) gut? Merely curious.

Fluff. They've hot-rodded it ;-)

The second B Wing pilots name looks like Palso Thern. Any ideas on what he might do based on fluff?

There was an action figure of him released a few years ago. He's a pale skinned blonde dude. As for the A-wing pilot...not sure who that could be. Sila Kott, Tycho, Arvel, and Jake Ferrell were the only ones I knew of.

He's apparently the lanky blond albino over 3PO's right shoulder.

I understand the concept.

It just seems like a poor way to implement it in-game.

The opportunity cost to load a concussion missile on most ships is 4 points. That is considered borderline too-expensive as it is by many (if not most) players.

Now, the cost of a concussion missile on an A-Wing is 6 points. Absolutely overcosted. Now, no one in their right minds will use any type of missile on any a-wing unless they are a) building a fluffy list or b) have a very specific and niche reason to do so (a Jonus type ability for example)

That's clearly poor design.

And I personally think it would have been better for them to just own up to their mistakes and errata A-Wings as 2 points cheaper.

I think that Farlander will have to have eye results to use his skill, not just be able to attack. That adds an element of risk to using him. I can't see it triggering just because you can attack.

They may choose to rule it this way, but pretty much every previous ruling points to being able to spend it whether there are any eyeballs or not.

Not that FFG's big on rules consistency these days, so who knows? But it would be truly ironic if an attempt to rein in what is probably a really bad move with an overdone pilot skill results in a limiting ruling that also ruins a pilot who was borderline in the first place.

...and you can't use advanced sensors to PTL and then make a 4 straight.

Yeah. I know whenever I fly B-wings, they live and die with that 4 Straight.

You can't pull a red maneuver and use PtL in the same turn with him. That's the only limitation. I really don't know why you'd say "Don't take PtL because of that." On any given turn, he can have either 2 actions with Advanced Sensors and a red maneuver, or 3 actions. His default state is pushing limits, and as long as he doesn't do a red it only gets better from there.

Leaving PtL of Farlander is like leaving it off Fel.

Yeah. Not really a fan of how they handled the Chaardan Refit.

They really limit build diversity by making it take a missile slot.

Missiles are half the reason to take GSP/PtL.

It clearly should be a modification card - even the word refit seems to support this...

A lot of thought went into how to make A-Wings cheaper but not over powered.

Now, the cost of a concussion missile on an A-Wing is 6 points.

That seems silly - the cost of a concussion missile on an A-wing is 4 points. - the negative point card may give you the opportunity to lower the cost of the ship, but it's not making missiles cost 6 points.

Sure, you can call it 6 points since it's 4 for a missile and -2 for no missile + upgrade card, but we're not calling prototype a-wings 15 points, they're still 17.

If we are talking opportunity cost, I wouldn't value a missile slot on two different fighters the same anyway, a missile on an A-wing is probably worth more than a missile on a y-wing. (I know y's cant carry missiles, i just wanted to not deal with comparing concussions vs protons) - the idea is that A-wings can control their position far better than a y-wing - and have an EPT slot to go PTL on if you want to fire focus and TL at the same time.

This is exciting. I don't think we'll ever see an Awing with a missile again(because cutting the cost by 2 is so so much better. Beyond that, let's hope they offer a few more cards that do the same(Tie Advance). I see a lot of complaints about the Bwing, but the ship itself didn't really get better. Just has more options. It really is the Rebel Firespray now. But I don't think we'll see any more just because of this.

But we don't know what those missiles do that come with this pack...they might be worth running. I have a gaming friend in town that has had lots of success with A-wing/missile lists. People will run them.

If I were running things, and I released an upgrade that gives back 2 points in exchange for losing the A-wing's missile slot--I'd certainly try to make sure I also included a missile that was still worth running on an A-wing.

I am thinking the dirt cheap 2-point Flechette missile...

...and you can't use advanced sensors to PTL and then make a 4 straight.

I really don't know why you'd say "Don't take PtL because of that."

Leaving PtL of Farlander is like leaving it off Fel.

It's 3 points that could be spent elsewhere. (Advanced sensors, Engine upgrade come to mind) If you fly using much of the B-wing dial, it's easy to have Ibitsam stressed and take an action. Try daredevil Ibtisam .

My B-wings tend to live and die with the red 3 banks. You're right, the point was the red maneuver bit, which is more than a third of a b-wing's dial choices. - compared to 1/8th of an interceptor dial. I don't agree that leaving PTL off of Farlander is like leaving it off of Fel, as Fel has to pull a K-turn to activate his stress ability - Farlander can activate it with a tight turn, fast forward or K-turn - which means he's got access to his "stress focus" any direction you want to turn his ship - Fel just get's it on a K-turn - making Farlander (and Ibtisam) pretty much not reliant on a talent of somekind to trigger their pilot ability.

Now, the cost of a concussion missile on an A-Wing is 6 points.

That seems silly - the cost of a concussion missile on an A-wing is 4 points. - the negative point card may give you the opportunity to lower the cost of the ship, but it's not making missiles cost 6 points.

Sure, you can call it 6 points since it's 4 for a missile and -2 for no missile + upgrade card, but we're not calling prototype a-wings 15 points, they're still 17.

If we are talking opportunity cost, I wouldn't value a missile slot on two different fighters the same anyway, a missile on an A-wing is probably worth more than a missile on a y-wing. (I know y's cant carry missiles, i just wanted to not deal with comparing concussions vs protons) - the idea is that A-wings can control their position far better than a y-wing - and have an EPT slot to go PTL on if you want to fire focus and TL at the same time.

It seems silly because it is silly. Silly for them to have done.

You can say all day that a concussion missile still only costs 4 points, or that missile value varies based on the platform. But to laugh it off and say that a concussion missile on an A-Wing does not effectively cost 6 points now is simply wrong.

Because there is no other downside to taking the refit, there is absolutely no reason not to run it if you aren't taking a missile. Which means that missiles on A-Wings are now 2 points more expensive across the board.

This really isn't a debatable issue.

You can just choose to see it from your "certain point of view" if you wish.

Best. Game. Ever.

The color pie is still very much alive, it's just shifted around a bit. Certainly nothing on the level of Planar Chaos. Either way, it has nothing to do with 'power creep.'

Well luckily I have not played Planar Chaos then

And yes, mixing colors/thematics is not power creep, that was the dull grey part.

Can we all agree that Farlander is a sociopath?

He's the only Rebel pilot who cannot wait to shoot at the shuttle with a Rebel Captive. He actually gets better when he does it.

Now, the cost of a concussion missile on an A-Wing is 6 points.

That seems silly - the cost of a concussion missile on an A-wing is 4 points. - the negative point card may give you the opportunity to lower the cost of the ship, but it's not making missiles cost 6 points.

Sure, you can call it 6 points since it's 4 for a missile and -2 for no missile + upgrade card, but we're not calling prototype a-wings 15 points, they're still 17.

If we are talking opportunity cost, I wouldn't value a missile slot on two different fighters the same anyway, a missile on an A-wing is probably worth more than a missile on a y-wing. (I know y's cant carry missiles, i just wanted to not deal with comparing concussions vs protons) - the idea is that A-wings can control their position far better than a y-wing - and have an EPT slot to go PTL on if you want to fire focus and TL at the same time.

It seems silly because it is silly. Silly for them to have done.

You can say all day that a concussion missile still only costs 4 points, or that missile value varies based on the platform. But to laugh it off and say that a concussion missile on an A-Wing does not effectively cost 6 points now is simply wrong.

Because there is no other downside to taking the refit, there is absolutely no reason not to run it if you aren't taking a missile. Which means that missiles on A-Wings are now 2 points more expensive across the board.

This really isn't a debatable issue.

You can just choose to see it from your "certain point of view" if you wish.

I was reading this and thinking: what rebel ships can equip missiles? A's, Yt-1300's and the yet released Z-95's. Out of them all, the cheapest base ship is the z at 12 points. The cheapest A is 17 (sans the new upgrade), and the cheapest yt is much more expensive. Something I think almost everyone would agree on is that you should always have both a target lock and a focus before firing your ordnance. The quickest way to achieve this is a green with ptl. Im pretty sure that there will not be a generic z with a low pilot skill and ept slot that will be less points than a green squadron pilot. In that case, I consider the green with ptl and a missile of your choice to be the best ship to field ordnance with. I could be wrong on this but I doubt it.

I think you guys are missing something, the card for the -2 cost has a missile icon on it.. so instead of a missile, you take this refit.. no missile for you any more.. it doesn't make them cost more..

It'll be 15 points for the prototype pilot with this refit. The question, do you think it is worth it to take the 15 point A-wing Prototype pilot over the 12 Point Tie Fighter Academy Pilot?

I seriously thought there would be a modification card that would give Barrel Roll in the action bar.

It'll be 15 points for the prototype pilot with this refit. The only decision, do you think it is worth it to take the 15 point A-wing Prototype pilot over the 12 Point Tie Fighter Academy Pilot.

Depends if you want a better dial and the target lock action or not.

That's my point oneway.

It DOES make them cost more. Look at it this way:

Prototype Pilot - no upgrades: 17 Points

Prototype Pilot - Chaardan refit: 15 points

These ships are exactly the same in-game so there is absolutely zero reason to ever take a naked Prototype ever again because the alternative is 2 points cheaper for the same exact ship.

Now we look at the following:

Prototype Pilot - Chaardan Refit: 15 points

Prototype Pilot - Concussion Missile: 21 points

The sole difference between these two ships in game is that one has a concussion missile. The difference in points is 6. This means that you pay 6 points and the only benefit is a concussion missile. That means the missile costs 6 points. Rendering it unplayable without a seriously specific reason to bring one.

The only reason I that even crosses my mind is if you really really want to have a missile that can use focus and target lock AND the Z-95s do not get a ship with EPT. Still falls into that category of needing a really good reason though...

Personally I would go for the A-wing. I use boost way more than barrel roll and I prefer the better dial, target lock and the better survivability (2 shields + 2 hull vs 3 hull).

edit: that's for not using quotation for my part.

I think you guys are missing something, the card for the -2 cost has a missile icon on it.. so instead of a missile, you take this refit.. no missile for you any more.. it doesn't make them cost more..

Practically it does, as Chardaan refit will be default modification (which does not use modification slot) IF you don't plan to use missiles. There is no sense NOT to use it if you have it available without missiles.

Edit: Nevermind, AndOne told it much better a bit earlier while i was still formattin my text