As far as the 2 ships with 3 attack vs 3 ships with 2 attack. I'll let someone who's better with the math then I, deal with that. But Vorpal is right in saying the 2 X's have better offense.
They do.
It's six attack dice either way. Against two attacks the defender rolls defense dice twice. Against three attacks he rolls defense dice three times which, on average, cancels more attack dice.
Two X hit harder than three Z. They die faster, too.
As far as the 2 ships with 3 attack vs 3 ships with 2 attack. I'll let someone who's better with the math then I, deal with that. But Vorpal is right in saying the 2 X's have better offense.They do.
It's six attack dice either way. Against two attacks the defender rolls defense dice twice. Against three attacks he rolls defense dice three times which, on average, cancels more attack dice.
Two X hit harder than three Z. They die faster, too.
Not to mention the Z95's will probably have a crappier dial too.
I hate Mathwing, and even I understand that 2 attacks with 3 die is more effective than 3 attacks with 2 die.
It's just a straight up better list unless you want to twist facts like vorpal...
You're claiming things are broken when you don't remember or understand what they do, so maybe less of the finger-pointing?
...and pretend your rookies will never die.
Assume for a moment that no one gets any actions. Against a ship with 1 Agility, the two Rookies deal a total of 2.3 damage while the three Headhunters deal 2.2. Against 2 Agility it's 1.8 versus 1.5. Against 3 Agility it's 1.4 versus 1.1. Adding in actions swings things further in favor of the X-wings, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
But of course the escort fighters are taking damage, too. (A smart opponent kills Han first, but let's pretend our opponent is foolish.) X-wings and Headhunters have the same Agility, so let's assume they're facing the same attack rolls and making the same defense rolls--and furthermore that this is a very precise set of attackers, who always do just enough damage and never overkill a target.
So the Headhunters are ahead in damage during the window from 5-7, and from 10-11 damage (when the X-wings are gone but there's a Headhunter left shooting). The X-wings are ahead from 0-4, and from 8-9.
I won't bore anyone with additional details, but the X-wings really do have better offensive potential than the Headhunters; just like TIE Fighters, Headhunters have to outnumber X-wings by at least 2:1 in order to consistently deal better damage. Switching out a pair of Rookies for a trio of Bandits results in a small to moderate diminution of offense--which it should, because it saves you 6 points while buttressing your list's overall durability. You probably make that difference up either by buying a missile or two for the Z-95s, or by investing the 6-point savings elsewhere in your list.
Not to beat a dead horse… wait, who am I kidding? This horse has been dead for a week! But what the Z-95 does is open up options for the Rebellion. You can trim a few points by switching some Bandits in for those Rookies, and that gives you more points to spend on Han if you want--or you can pull three points away from Han (substitute the Falcon title for Chewie?), and make those Bandits into Prototypes. Or you can run one Bandit, possibly with a missile, and Biggs with the new R7 unit.
Where there was one option (two Rookies), there are now lots more! And all of those options are making slightly different trades in order to do slightly different things.
It all works out so well that you'd almost think there was a group of people out there carefully designing and testing this stuff, rather than just throwing things together.
Edited by Vorpal SwordI hate Mathwing, and even I understand that 2 attacks with 3 die is more effective than 3 attacks with 2 die.
... unless we shift the entire matter to range 1.
2 X have 8 total dice, 3 Z have 9. Against a huge ship with 0 agility 3 Z score more damage. Against 1 agility it should be about equal. Against 2+ agility 2 X are still better.
Edited by dvorYup. You can prefer 2 X-wings to 3 Headhunters, or vice versa. There is no "correct" answer.
As far as the 2 ships with 3 attack vs 3 ships with 2 attack. I'll let someone who's better with the math then I, deal with that. But Vorpal is right in saying the 2 X's have better offense.They do.
It's six attack dice either way. Against two attacks the defender rolls defense dice twice. Against three attacks he rolls defense dice three times which, on average, cancels more attack dice.
Two X hit harder than three Z. They die faster, too.
Not to mention the Z95's will probably have a crappier dial too.
The 1 bank is white. So I guess that's right.
Edited by GungoThere are 3 titles that are 0 and 3 that cost 1-3 points... So I don't know where you keep getting your numbers... It can swing either way. All this thread is doing now is showing no matter what, people will complain, think something is OP, and just generally be negative nancies. Wait for the expansion to come out, play test it, THEN complain. Till then, try to get a little more positive thinking in life.
you didn't count the awing either which is in the same expansion pack and costs zero.
Which again doesn't really prove anything either way. So far we have 5 released titles, and 1 unreleased that we know the cost of.
3 cost points, 3 don't. Given the nature of the A-Wing vs the B-Wing, it seems more likely that the B-Wing title will cost points. Because the B-Wing is generally a better ship for the points, and crew can have a bigger impact then a 2nd EPT.
Which isn't to say it can't be free, but I'd bet on it costing at least 1 or 2 points.
Edit: I was apparently counting the A-Wing title twice or something...
Edited by VanorDMI did include it... A-Wing, Slave-1, and Imperial guard interceptor.
No, because 3CP0 gives you at most 1 extra evade per round, that means you can at best cancel 1 hit. 3CP0 is effectively a 50/50 chance of gaining an evade token for the turn, something that may not even pay off. Chewie lets you discard damage and regain a shield, so best case you have to survive at least 3 more rounds to make 3CP0 better.Ya I messed up on c3p0 however he is better then chewie if the falcon survives more then 2 rounds.
Vorpal doesn't need to twist the stats, and would never do so.As far as the 2 ships with 3 attack vs 3 ships with 2 attack. I'll let someone who's better with the math then I, deal with that. But Vorpal is right in saying the 2 X's have better offense.I don't see how the xwings do more damage quickly given even vorpals twisting of stats.
More then 2 is three rounds hence why i said more then 2. Chewie only removes 2 hits whereas c3po garauntees 1 evade a round and saves you a point so you can take evade as well if you so choose.
I am not just saying 3 z95s vs 2xwings it's 3 z95s and two ion missles. That means at range 3 the missles are better then the xwings. At range 1 3 z95s primary are better then 2 xwings.
You can say. Smart player takes out the falcon first and with the new list it's even more survivable. It's not just the fact you are garaunteed an evasion roll every round or the ability to get an evade token instead of marksmen. You are able to ion ships and stay out of firing arcs. Giving the falcon more time to burn through targets. Play math hammer all he likes but even his mathhammer showed that two xwings are only better at range 2 slightly and range 3 only after there is no ion missles left.
It's a powerful ability, but it's not game changing. You know what's worse?I'll say it once and I'll say it again. The reason why people are even complaining about the expansions is the fact it brings much more to the table than Imperial Aces.
As for the topic of the BWing elite pilot. I really can't take people seriously when they say it's not powerful or try to justify its ability and say it's mediocre. Blows my mind in a bad way.
Take the already powerful xxbb build and give the bwings gunners.
Blue squadx2+gunnerx2+fcsx2=58
Rookie x2=42
100 point build that just made the bwings into assault cannons. This isn't options this is straight out power creep.
I highly doubt they are going to give possibly the best ship in the game a free EPT title.. Stop being the boy who cried wolf.
And you keep poking Vorpal while he is using logic, past precedence and highly educated guesses in his arguments. Meanwhile your arguments consist of running around flailing your arms screaming the sky is falling..
Get a grip.
Edited by NatarisTell that ***** to be cool!
-Jules
Edited by CrookedWookieCould you possibly reach and/or over react anymore? No seriously, can you?It's a powerful ability, but it's not game changing. You know what's worse?I'll say it once and I'll say it again. The reason why people are even complaining about the expansions is the fact it brings much more to the table than Imperial Aces.
As for the topic of the BWing elite pilot. I really can't take people seriously when they say it's not powerful or try to justify its ability and say it's mediocre. Blows my mind in a bad way.
Take the already powerful xxbb build and give the bwings gunners.
Blue squadx2+gunnerx2+fcsx2=58
Rookie x2=42
100 point build that just made the bwings into assault cannons. This isn't options this is straight out power creep.
I highly doubt they are going to give possibly the best ship in the game a free EPT title.. Stop being the boy who cried wolf.
And you keep poking Vorpal while he is using logic, past precedence and highly educated guesses in his arguments. Meanwhile your arguments consist of running around flailing your arms screaming the sky is falling..
Get a grip.
Please I took current meta lists and added new abilities that make them stronger. Whereas he took unlikely scenarios such as losing no ships and claiming overtime the original build will be slightly stronger offensively. He choses to ignore whatever situations doesn't match his argument or abilities that don't support his view.
He choses to ignore whatever situations doesn't match his argument or abilities that don't support his view.
No, Vorpal is most defiantly not the one doing that.
Like your example in the above post that is based on a completely flawed assumption, namely that the B-Wing title will be free. You try to claim that most titles are free, but that isn't actually true.
Gunner is good, as is Fire Control System. But I'm still having a tough time seeing them outright replacing Advanced Sensors. Especially since it is beginning to look like the Phantom and Advanced Cloaking Device will just eat that squad up.
Okay, last post in this thread for today.
More then 2 is three rounds hence why i said more then 2. Chewie only removes 2 hits whereas c3po garauntees 1 evade a round and saves you a point so you can take evade as well if you so choose.
Neither Chewie nor Threepio costs an action. Chewie saves you from 2 damage; Threepio has a 62.5% chance to save you from one damage each round. But Chewie is more reliable in the short term, even if he's less strong over the course of a match; Chewie also guarantees you'll get out from under at least one crit, while Threepio's free evade can't be used to cancel a crit unless that's all the defender rolls).
Of course, you can take both Chewie and Threepio, and they definitely do have some synergy with one another--but now you've locked yourself out of bringing a Gunner, meaning you're trading offense for defense.
I am not just saying 3 z95s vs 2xwings it's 3 z95s and two ion missles. That means at range 3 the missles are better then the xwings. At range 1 3 z95s primary are better then 2 xwings.
The Ion Pulse Missiles are more accurate than an X-wing's primary at Range 3, but its damage is capped, and those two effects have approximately equal weight--meaning the trio of Z-95s with two Ion Pulse Missiles deals about the same damage as the pair of X-wings at Range 3.
(Which means I want to engage at Range 3 if I brought Headhunters, and Range 2 if I brought X-wings, in order to maximize the damage I'm able to do with those escort ships.)
At Range 1, the Z-95s are better against targets with Agility 0-1, approximately equal against Agility 2, and worse against Agility 3. Also, you're assuming that all three Bandits survive two rounds of attacks, and I've been warned repeatedly about how dishonest and twisty that is.
Play math hammer all he likes but even his mathhammer showed that two xwings are only better at range 2 slightly and range 3 only after there is no ion missles left.
Okay, this is my whole point, and has been for a few pages now while you've repeatedly insulted me:
If you substitute 3 Bandits and 2 Ion Pulse Missiles for 2 Rookies in a HSF list, the list's overall strength doesn't change much.
The version of the list with Bandits is a bit better against ships/lists with low Agility, and a bit worse against ships/lists with high Agility. It will survive a little bit longer, but does a bit less damage in return. In the big picture, it's a pretty balanced alteration to the list (although double Falcon lists might not feel that way).
Please I took current meta lists and added new abilities that make them stronger. Whereas he took unlikely scenarios such as losing no ships and claiming overtime the original build will be slightly stronger offensively. He choses to ignore whatever situations doesn't match his argument or abilities that don't support his view.
I'd invite you to reread this post , in which I directly address the idea that I'm "losing no ships". In fact, I'd invite you to take a break (I'm going to), and when you've gotten a little bit of perspective, reread the last few pages .
Please I took current meta lists and added new abilities that make them stronger.
As Vorpal pointed out above, and as we've all been trying to tell you.
No you didn't, all you did was take an existing list and make changes that kept it effectively on par with what is already there. For that you've called him names and accused him of lying.
Is HSF with 3 Z's an effective list? Yes it clearly is. One that I will most likely end up trying at some point.
Is it a better list then the classic HSF? No it's not. If 42 points of Z-95's are better then 42 points of X-Wings, then something is quite clearly broken.
Edited by VanorDMNo, Vorpal is most defiantly not the one doing that.Like your example in the above post that is based on a completely flawed assumption, namely that the B-Wing title will be free. You try to claim that most titles are free, but that isn't actually true.He choses to ignore whatever situations doesn't match his argument or abilities that don't support his view.
it's not flawed it's unknown and it is a different statement then the one directed at vorpal.
You can't make a list based on that large of an assumption and use it as proof of something being broken.
Put simply how is it related to my discussion with vorpal. It's not.
It's yet another example of you making assumptions, and not understanding what everyone else is telling you, people who have actual math to back up their arguments.... You keep making broad sweeping statements, some of which are simply untrue. Then call other people names or accuse them of lying when they point out that you're wrong.
Alright, I think everyone needs to take a 30 minute time out from this thread to cool down. This is supposed to be a discussion thread, not a mudslinging thread.
There's one person mudslinging and about 3 other slamming their head into a wall trying to talk some sense into that person.
There is no reason for them continuing to try and talk any sense into him, it isn't going to bear fruit.
There's one person mudslinging and about 3 other slamming their head into a wall trying to talk some sense into that person.
There is no reason for them continuing to try and talk any sense into him, it isn't going to bear fruit.
Exactly. This man speaks truth.
Okay, last post in this thread for today. If you substitute 3 Bandits and 2 Ion Pulse Missiles for 2 Rookies in a HSF list, the list's overall strength doesn't change much.[/b][/i][/u][/center]
Ok I'm just going to say I disagree with your opinion. And since all the upgrades in this list are known feel free to proxy this list and see for yourself. In my opinion overall the newer list is slightly more offense overall and more defensive with better utility. And all the upgrades in this list will come from the transports and Wave 4 which is due in the next few months.
Just for clarification (whoever might care) - there are currently 4 title cards out there at the moment - with another 2 confirmed (the CR-90 and the A-wing). We know the B-wing has one as well, but there is no confirmed sighting of it yet..
The costs for them are as follows -
A-wing test pilot- -0 points - A-wing (small base)
Slave 1 - 0 points - Firespray (large base)
Moldy Crow - 3 points - HWK-290 (small base)
ST-321 - 3 points - Lambda Shuttle (large base)
Millenium Falcon - 1 points - YT-1300 (large base)
Royal Guard TIE - 0 points TIE Interceptor only (small base)
Dodonna's Pride - 4 points - CR-90 Corvette (Capital base)
So, of the title cards that we can actually SEE, only 3 come at no point cost. No one knows just yet whether or not the B will have a title card point cost associated with it just yet. Odds are against the fact that it will cost nothing, and I would argue that by adding a crew slot, that title will most likely cost at least 3 points.
Edited by Papamambo