Here's an idea. Why not bring out refits for everything? Any upgrade slot you don't use you can get points back for not using them!

To be perfectly clear I am not serious.

no iam no fan of refits !!! thsi dman minus card is absolute trash

hull upgrade = 3 points

Shield upgrade = 4 points

PS = 1 point

Pilot Ability 1 point i assume

this formula can be done with many ships for example

ps 1 tie fighter 3 hull = 12 points

PS 5 night beast 3 hull = (3*3)+5= 14 + 1 = 15points

ps6 Backstabber 3 hull = (3*3)+6 +1 = 16 points

or Hwk 290 1 shield 4 hull = 12+4= 16 points for the ps 2 pilot

we could go on with that formula on other ships like the tie bomber aswell

6 hull = 18 points but the ps 2 one is 16 i asume cause of 2 defense instead of 3 its lowered 2 points down to 16. while jonus is 22 cause of 16 + pilot skill of 6 and ability pushes him up to 22 but and rhymer would have been 23 or 24 for even numbers but hes 26 odd priced and we have some other examples for odd priced named pilots aswell like tycho but i think that my formula is kinda ok for the most ships we seen so far

I am just going to quote myself from this thread:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/

Emphasis on the bolded section in the middle.

Background

There are at least four ways to predict a ship's "fair", or "balanced" cost. If you can think of more, please chime in and I will add them to the list.

1. Extensive play testing
2. Comparing similar ships and differentially adding or subtracting points for different capabilities
3. Converting attack/defense/dial/upgrade/etc parameters into a form that can be used as an input to Lanchester's Square Law
4. Combat Salvo Model numerical simulations

Notice that I did not include the linear regression formulas that have previously been developed. Linear regression formulas that look backwards at existing ship costs and try to figure out a fixed price for each kind of upgrade/dice/etc are fundamentally flawed and were doomed to failure from the start.

A few thoughts on each category:

1. Play testing: This is obviously the best method, and technically doesn't belong in this list since it doesn't predict balanced costs, it actually proves what the balanced values are. The main downside is that it requires a large sample size, and therefore cannot be used for discussing upcoming waves (even fully revealed ones), or custom stat ships that people have put together but haven't had much (or any) time to test yet.
2. Differential point costing: This is the easiest of the three "theory crafting" methods, and it works OK for comparing ships that are very similar. As the differences between the two ships becomes greater, the margin for error becomes much larger. It also assumes that you can accurately assign point values for the different capabilities, which isn't trivial, but sometimes can be gleaned from looking at the point structure and capabilities of existing ships.
3. Lanchester's Square Law: this is the method that I will be discussing here. The difficulty is in figuring out how to accurately quantify all of the various game mechanics to obtain a numerical "combat effectiveness" for each ship. A ship's cost is then proportional to the square root of it's combat effectiveness. This approach has scaling problems when the point squad is low, such as in X-wing, since the assumptions of the continuous time differential equations upon which it is based break down. Thankfully, this is relatively easy to compensate for.
4. Salvo Model: this is by far the most difficult method, and takes a fair amount of expertise to generate a reasonable model. Even if there was an ideal simulation, there is still not necessarily a direct link between the results and a points prediction, since a ship's balance is not just based on a single matchup, but rather an aggregate of the entire metagame. I will undoubtedly get around to building such a model eventually, but more for analyzing matchups and less for predicting overall balance

well then i leave the math up to u then ;P

hope u got the right formula

I'm glad my half hearted metaphor... more focused on humor than exactness... made people hungry rather than made them argue... mission accomplished.

I'm just glad I fly interceptors... the steak of mobile glass cannons... but I'm happy my burger combo will have more options when I do "go cheap".

This thread makes me miss Portland, where I could actually get a burger and beer for about $6 and an order of onion rings for about $2 more.

By that formula, Attack and Defence dice have no value. Everything is based on Hull, Shields, and PS. Explain the 2-2-2-2 Z-95 at 12 points? It should be 14. The Y-Wing's 5H, 3S? 27. B-Wing's 3H, 5S? 29.

works on msot ships not all i even think that FFG has no really points costing formula in thier back so its chosen randomly from them like u see on thier first refit card well i odnt know either ;P

and u forgot to take -2 cause 1 evade less so its 12 for the z95. same goes to the b wing what gets -4 cause of 2 evade less then 3 so its back to 25 dont know the b-wing normal stats ;P

PS2 B-Wing is 22 points. PS2 Y-Wing is 18. The upcoming PS1 E-Wing is 27 points with only 2H, 3S (18 points by your reckoning). Heck, the PS2 X-Wing is 21 points for 3H, 2S (17 points by your formula). A-Wing: 2H, 2S should only be 14. Even your TIE Fighter is off. It should only cost 10.

Here's why all of this mindless ranting is entirely pointless because none of us know the full story of what is being planned.

There's 6 yet-to-be-announced products in between FFG product SWX22 and SWX29.

Go write 24 pages of forum posts on that wild speculation.

SWX01 Core Set

SWX02 X-Wing Expansion Pack

SWX03 TIE Fighter Expansion Pack

SWX04 Y-Wing Expansion Pack

SWX05 TIE/Ad Expansion Pack

SWX06 YT-1300 Expansion Pack

SWX07 Firespray Expansion Pack

SWX08 A-Wing Expansion Pack

SWX09 TIE/In Expansion Pack

SWX10 X-Wing Dice Pack

SWX11 Rebel Transport Expansion Pack

SWX12 HWK-290 Expansion Pack

SWX13 Lambda Shuttle Expansion Pack

SWX14 B-Wing Expansion Pack

SWX15 TIE/Bm Expansion Pack

SWX16 Z-95 Expansion Pack

SWX17 TIE/Df Expansion Pack

SWX18 E-Wing Expansion Pack

SWX19 TIE/Ph Expansion Pack

SWX20 Starfield Game Tiles

SWX21 Imperial Aces Expansion Pack

SWX22 Tantive IV Expansion Pack

SWX23

SWX24

SWX25

SWX26

SWX27

SWX28

SWX29 Rebel Aces Expansion Pack

*edited for clarity of listing*

So, Wave 5, an Imperial Capital ship, and either another Imperial Capital ship or Aces pack.

And really, the ranting about Rebel Aces is pointless, because we don't know what things will look like post Wave 4. We don't know what the Defender or Phantom bring to the table yet.

I don't know why people keep citing the defender and phantom as reasons RA won't be unbalanced. Do you expect the other 6 ships to disappear? Do you really want to reduce the Empire to 2 viable ships?

Not that I think Farlander is really going to radically unbalance the game, I just don't get the rationale that he "would unbalance the game, but the inclusion of 2 other ships will balance him?"

Concentrated fire balances anything.

Well he is in a B-Wing 1 defense and the Phantom and Defener shoot 3-4. They are both expected to have better maneuverability also.

A LOT of the complaints I've seen have been bemoaning how the Imperials are sliding behind the Rebels. I mean, many are pointing at how Rebels are winning more Store Championships than Imperials as proof of an imbalance in the game, which is complete hogwash. I don't see the Rebel Heroes and Rebel Aces to imbalance anything. Yes, there are some really good pilots for both the X and B-wing. And the A-wing gets new life. Many are completely dismissing the Imperial Aces pack, even though it is really, really good for the Interceptor, if not completely changing it like Rebel Aces is doing to the A-wing. The balance is fine, and nothing I've seen really changes it. Yes, all the stress inducers will be difficult for Interceptors to handle, but I imagine it isn't game ending for them.

I do really, really look forward to seeing the new A-wings vs Interceptors. U-turn Tycho vs Fel will be fun.

Many are completely dismissing the Imperial Aces pack, even though it is really, really good for the Interceptor, if not completely changing it like Rebel Aces is doing to the A-wing.

I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this

You think the Imperial Aces expansion is a huge meta changer? What pilots and/or upgrades specifically?

Many are completely dismissing the Imperial Aces pack, even though it is really, really good for the Interceptor, if not completely changing it like Rebel Aces is doing to the A-wing.

I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this

You think the Imperial Aces expansion is a huge meta changer? What pilots and/or upgrades specifically?

Actually that's not what he said. He said he thinks the Aces pack is really good for the Interceptor, even if it doesn't completely change things up like the Rebel one does for the A-wing.

Oh OK. Then I agree even less.

There's 6 yet-to-be-announced products in between FFG product SWX22 and SWX29.

So you think that with Rebel Aces announced for Q3, and Wave 4 around the same time, we're going to get 6 additional releases between now and then?

Ah... uhm... Okkkaaaay. Sure thing.

Actually that's not what he said. He said he thinks the Aces pack is really good for the Interceptor, even if it doesn't completely change things up like the Rebel one does for the A-wing.

I have to agree with HERO on this one. With the exception of Jax, all the new pilots are relatively lackluster. The Royal Guard generic is interesting, but beyond a chance to try and outbid PS vs. Biggs, really doesn't gain much over a Saber. The Royal Guard TIE title is fun, but multiple modifications are really just too expensive to see common use. The absolute bare minimum cheapest you could get one out the door would be Hull or Stealth and Targeting Computer for 27 points. More realistically you'll be looking at 29 points for an ability-less ship at mid-PS. Compared to Wedge.

<shrug> I could be wrong of course, but a few games in with a variety of experiments with the new pilots and I haven't seen any real change in the Interceptors.

That's pretty much it.

When you get pilots and ships, you have to look at what their purpose is and what they can add to the meta. Royal Guards are PS6 ships which outshoots and moves popular 4s and 5 on Biggs. They're expensive, just like any other Interceptor and that's the biggest issue. In fact, I would say that Royal Guard Tie is a BAD upgrade for the Interceptor. All the upgrades that you would put on the Interceptor compounds the problem it has already, which is being expensive for relatively low HP.

The only thing that changes the game somewhat is Jax and Targeting Computer as an option on Fel. Jax in the sense that no one is crazy enough to joust PTL Evade/Focus stacked Interceptors in a Joust at RB1 with Jax in play, and Targeting Computer in the sense that it'll give Fel something to do when abusing PTL at Range 3. It will even give him an opportunity to check for range, see a threat and barrel roll his way out reliably.

So yes, Imperial Aces gave me two nice looking ships, but the rest of the package has been quite disappointing from a competitive standpoint. The rest of the pilots are mediocre, the RGT upgrade fails to address the primary problem of Interceptors but compounds them instead, and Targeting Computer only really benefits one imperial pilot in the game.

Not to mention the Rebel Convoy has Stress-inducing weapons all over the place. For 2-points too. That's going to be really fun to fly against with Interceptors with PTL. Or not.

More options with little change from a game design perspective is a good thing.

Changes made that are needed, but elevate up lackluster game pieces, those are good choices.

I love what they've done with the A-Wing, because I see it as a test to see how the consumer base takes it.

More ships on the table. More choices due to saving points = good. Let us get more on the table within the usual tournament 100 point allowance.

Sure, and I guess that's partially the problem with the Rebel Aces being shown after Imperial Aces.

I can't help but have a sour taste in my mouth because Imperial Aces hardly changed anything in the meta and it moved Interceptors laterally on the power scale. Rebel Aces and Rebel Convoy changes how the game is played radically, giving A-Wings new life and a great pilot, and increases the power on the B-Wing when they really didn't need to be improved. I don't think any pilot should have the ability to convert a penalty (stress) into an offensive boon. That's just ridiculous, even for 29 points. Wedge is 29 points and he does just fine in top play because his ability is amazing.

Convoy introduces tons of stress-inducers and that's just fatal to Interceptors (or even Hans with Marks) while adding a great set of pilots too. Right now for me personally, I see Interceptors got better? (with a big question mark), X-Wings got better, A-Wings are viable and better, and B-Wings got better. It's pretty black and white. And don't get me wrong, I love the fact all these are coming out for the Rebels because I also play them. I just think Imperials should receive similar treatment.

I guess all there is to do is wait now, because we do know some Imperial stuff is lined up. I just hope they're more effective than Imperial Aces are at making things more interesting for the Empire.

Actually that's not what he said. He said he thinks the Aces pack is really good for the Interceptor, even if it doesn't completely change things up like the Rebel one does for the A-wing.

I have to agree with HERO on this one. With the exception of Jax, all the new pilots are relatively lackluster. The Royal Guard generic is interesting, but beyond a chance to try and outbid PS vs. Biggs, really doesn't gain much over a Saber. The Royal Guard TIE title is fun, but multiple modifications are really just too expensive to see common use. The absolute bare minimum cheapest you could get one out the door would be Hull or Stealth and Targeting Computer for 27 points. More realistically you'll be looking at 29 points for an ability-less ship at mid-PS. Compared to Wedge.

<shrug> I could be wrong of course, but a few games in with a variety of experiments with the new pilots and I haven't seen any real change in the Interceptors.

agree with Buhallin.

The Imperial aces pilots abilities are too situational and thus somewhat underwhelming.

Jax is fine; Kanos really would need PtL. But neither of them is able to defend against turreted weapons, wich was and is the greatest weakness of the Interceptors. Would at least one of them have like a +1 defence against 360° weapons? NO!

Why the hell?? This would be a useful interceptor pilot.

The imperial aces are like 'more of the same' - they are not really solving the main problem. You can just make them more expensive.

of course the rebel aces are OP, it's called pro-active balancing.

We are still on for the Death Star in Wave 9, aren't we?

Actually that's not what he said. He said he thinks the Aces pack is really good for the Interceptor, even if it doesn't completely change things up like the Rebel one does for the A-wing.

I have to agree with HERO on this one. With the exception of Jax, all the new pilots are relatively lackluster. The Royal Guard generic is interesting, but beyond a chance to try and outbid PS vs. Biggs, really doesn't gain much over a Saber. The Royal Guard TIE title is fun, but multiple modifications are really just too expensive to see common use. The absolute bare minimum cheapest you could get one out the door would be Hull or Stealth and Targeting Computer for 27 points. More realistically you'll be looking at 29 points for an ability-less ship at mid-PS. Compared to Wedge.

<shrug> I could be wrong of course, but a few games in with a variety of experiments with the new pilots and I haven't seen any real change in the Interceptors.

agree with Buhallin.

The Imperial aces pilots abilities are too situational and thus somewhat underwhelming.

Jax is fine; Kanos really would need PtL. But neither of them is able to defend against turreted weapons, wich was and is the greatest weakness of the Interceptors. Would at least one of them have like a +1 defence against 360° weapons? NO!

Why the hell?? This would be a useful interceptor pilot.

The imperial aces are like 'more of the same' - they are not really solving the main problem. You can just make them more expensive.

If the Interceptors greatest weakness is Turreted Weapons, with the YT-1300 being the main issue, wouldn't the inclusion of more powerful non-Turret capable pilots (with fairly high point costs) be a benefit to the Interceptors? As it will keep more YTs off the table and put more B-wings/Awings on.

Both of which are ships the Interceptor deals with quite well. Being able to outmaneuver the B-wings and having a better stat-line over the A-wings.

So provided there are no upgrades in this set that look good on a YT, or other Turret wielding ship, then this set only benefits the Interceptors by making the option the don't deal with well less attractive to Rebel players.

Im not speaking of the YT-1300 alone ... - but you made a point.

Making the non-turreted rebel ships more attractive to play would end in less turreted ships on the board would help the interceptors to shine... ok ... ok ... okokok ... still ... there could be a interceptor pilot with +1 defence against 360° weapons ... maybe with the limitation "if your ship is not in the attackers fireing arc"

I think many people expect their chosen list and playstyle to be just as effective against any list they'll come across while playing...which...should never be the case. Either you make a list that works decent against all comers or really good against specific opponents.

Focus fire on the turret ships if they hurt your play style, but you'll have to play accordingly. ie. Long range missile assaults.

Too late for that, Ibtisam already has such an ability.

I don't think any pilot should have the ability to convert a penalty (stress) into an offensive boon. That's just ridiculous, even for 29 points.

Too late for that, Ibtisam already has such an ability.