Chardaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan! A-Wing!
Rebel Aces!!
The homing missile A wings shoot theirs off, targeting one of the A wings that needed to spend his F on offense. They will each do 2.63 damage, less an evade token for 4.26 damage. Now your other two target a second A wing without a focus, the regular A wing does .61 damage, while the concussion missile does ~2.64 damage, totaling 3.25 damage, less the evade, for a total of 2.25 damage. The round ends, you are out of missiles, and it's 4 ships (given one damaged) to 3 ships (at full health). From there, the 4 ships mathematically win.
This is kinda funny - you quote my argument, agree with my argument, and then say I'm trying to make a completely different argumentI agree, it might make missiles less attractive as an option. But my point was that options were not eliminated, which is what AndOne was saying.
But from what you've been saying it seems like you're trying to make the same argument, that options have been removed.
Honestly, I'm not sure how you can even get there. If I'm so strenuously arguing the real points cost difference between two options, how can I be claiming one of those options no longer exists?
The option is still there - won't even pretend otherwise. But the previous example is a good way to think about it. If the A-wing had no missile slot, and you could add one for 2 points then slap in a missile of your choice, would you consider it a good missile platform?
Honestly, this debate over whether the option exists or not feels like a distraction. Of course it exists. The question is whether it's worth it. At 4 points, does a Concussion Missile earn its points back? What about at 6 points? That's the more interesting discussion.
A concussion missile is not 6 points you are neglecting to place a value on the slot. There is only 2 ships that currently can field missles for the rebels. The other is the yt-1300 and not even the outer rim smuggler version. It's a rare upgrade currently. And vastly better options then the more common torpedo upgrade. You directly stated the a wing is less effective when it's not. You also implied it has less options when it doesn't. A concussive missle does not cost 6. It costs 4 points. However a missle slot on the a wing costs 2 points. Those are not the same thing. You can effectively say a missile upgrade slot costs 2 points. And who knows maybe a z95 is actually only 10 points with a 2 point missile slot that you can't remove. But you are saying it costs 6 to put a concussive missile on a ship when that is not true.
This is kinda funny - you quote my argument, agree with my argument, and then say I'm trying to make a completely different argumentI agree, it might make missiles less attractive as an option. But my point was that options were not eliminated, which is what AndOne was saying.
But from what you've been saying it seems like you're trying to make the same argument, that options have been removed.
The option is still there - won't even pretend otherwise. But the previous example is a good way to think about it. If the A-wing had no missile slot, and you could add one for 2 points then slap in a missile of your choice, would you consider it a good missile platform?
Honestly, this debate over whether the option exists or not feels like a distraction. Of course it exists. The question is whether it's worth it. At 4 points, does a Concussion Missile earn its points back? What about at 6 points? That's the more interesting discussion.
A concussion missile is not 6 points you are neglecting to place a value on the slot. There is only 2 ships that currently can field missles for the rebels. The other is the yt-1300 and not even the outer rim smuggler version. It's a rare upgrade currently. And vastly better options then the more common torpedo upgrade. You directly stated the a wing is less effective when it's not. You also implied it has less options when it doesn't. A concussive missle does not cost 6. It costs 4 points. However a missle slot on the a wing costs 2 points. Those are not the same thing. You can effectively say a missile upgrade slot costs 2 points. And who knows maybe a z95 is actually only 10 points with a 2 point missile slot that you can't remove. But you are saying it costs 6 to put a concussive missile on a ship when that is not true.
The advent of the Refit makes it true. If you run an A-Wing with missiles, you are effectively paying two more points for that ship compared to an A-Wing that places the Refit in that slot. A Green Squadron pilot with Concussion Missiles is 23 points. A Green Squadron with a Refit is only 17 points. Ergo, if you own the card, you are now paying 6 points for the upgrade instead of 4 for what you could have instead.
While this is true, the A-Wing is still the best missile platform for the rebellion. So it doesn't really matter if its 4 points or 6 points for that concussion missile - there still is a better missile platform you can bring.
Did you completely neglect to read the entire point I made how the missle slot itself costs points and how it is currently a rare upgrade slot?
Why yes you did!!!
Let me make it simpler a missle slot on a ship costs two points regardless if it's already built into the ship cost. The outer rim smuggler is a good example how a missle slot was removed as a way to reduce points on a ship. The rebels only have 2 missile platforms and the z95 makes it a 3rd. The a wing is still a good option if u want a missile even after wave 4. The green squad pilot is likely the cheapest option to field a missle and have an EPT or two. I can't make this any more simple then to say a missile upgrade slot was never a free upgrade.
Edited by Gungo
They should have made the refit card cost 2 points. Problem solved.
Did you completely neglect to read the entire point I made how the missle slot itself costs points and how it is currently a rare upgrade slot?
Why yes you did!!!
Let me make it simpler a missle slot on a ship costs two points regardless if it's already built into the ship cost. The outer rim smuggler is a good example how a missle slot was removed as a way to reduce points on a ship.
So yes, the slot itself now costs 2 points on top of the cost of the missile. It's like saying that PTL on Garven will only be 3 points after the transport pack hits. That statement is false, as the true cost of PTL on Garven is 4 points (3 for PTL, 1 for the Droid) plus a Droid slot.
I'm not saying that I don't think there are cases where an A-Wing should pack missiles. This is not a judgement call on that. It's only a comparison of how there actually is an extra two points between the cost of an A-Wing with missiles and the cost of one without them.
The slot only earns its value if you have a missile in it. If you run an A-Wing with an empty missile tube, and don't Refit, you are giving up two points to your opponent.Did you completely neglect to read the entire point I made how the missle slot itself costs points and how it is currently a rare upgrade slot?
Why yes you did!!!
Let me make it simpler a missle slot on a ship costs two points regardless if it's already built into the ship cost. The outer rim smuggler is a good example how a missle slot was removed as a way to reduce points on a ship.
So yes, the slot itself now costs 2 points on top of the cost of the missile. It's like saying that PTL on Garven will only be 3 points after the transport pack hits. That statement is false, as the true cost of PTL on Garven is 4 points (3 for PTL, 1 for the Droid) plus a Droid slot.
I'm not saying that I don't think there are cases where an A-Wing should pack missiles. This is not a judgement call on that. It's only a comparison of how there actually is an extra two points between the cost of an A-Wing with missiles and the cost of one without them.
The point you keep neglecting is the missle slot is not free. As almost every upgrade slot had a cost associated with it. Just because a concussion missle costs 4 points you always needed to pay for the slot to equip it. As I said before the outer rim smuggler lost it's missile slot as a cost shaving measure.
Also your example of an EPT costing an extra point on garven is valid since most cost calculators already show EPT costing 1 point already whether you used the slot or not. In your example your paying for the EPT slot not for ptl. Every upgrade choice has a cost. Whether it's an addon or built into the ship already.
Edited by Gungoim getting 2 of these for sure.
im getting 2 of these for sure.
I will as well, because 1 isn't enough.. no matter what I think or feel about what all these cards do.. 2 is the least to have...
The photo is from the GAMA retailers convention ongoing in Las Vegas right now! They always preview the upcoming releases before GenCon
as u guys saw that i raged abit and a guy buhilan called me a troll kid is kinda harsh chosed
yes i raged but with many reasons well iam happy that rebels getting thier good buffs cant wait to fight them in touarnements and cant wait to finnaly see more rebel players but that b wing ps 7 pilot is ridicilous.
first: iam no troll or a kid -.- iam 21 years old and veery mature for my age
second i dont have my feelings under control sometimes and my mates know how to deal with that luckely ;P.
the reason why i raged is that iam veeeeeery sensetive <--- (dont know if thats right sorry german my english knowledge isnt advanced enough for specified words to describe some situations)
if iam upset about something then i explode and rage and share my feelings if iam happy about something i do the same iam a ball of happienes and share that with all ;P
cant wait for the rebel aces to shine cant wait to face new lists !!
first: iam no troll or a kid -.- iam 21 years old and veery mature for my age
second i dont have my feelings under control sometimes and my mates know how to deal with that luckely ;P.
the reason why i raged is that iam veeeeeery sensetive <--- (dont know if thats right sorry german my english knowledge isnt advanced enough for specified words to describe some situations)
if iam upset about something then i explode and rage and share my feelings if iam happy about something i do the same iam a ball of happienes and share that with all ;P
These statements are mutually exclusive. You cannot be both "very mature" and unable to control your emotions.
Stating your age and the stating you're mature for that age directly implies you are at least "child-like"
Finally, saying you're very mature is like saying "I'm the most humble person I know!" Immediately letting everybody you are in no way humble. In your case, implying that you are in no way mature.
It's the Internet, calm down.
first: iam no troll or a kid -.- iam 21 years old and veery mature for my age
second i dont have my feelings under control sometimes and my mates know how to deal with that luckely ;P.
the reason why i raged is that iam veeeeeery sensetive <--- (dont know if thats right sorry german my english knowledge isnt advanced enough for specified words to describe some situations)
if iam upset about something then i explode and rage and share my feelings if iam happy about something i do the same iam a ball of happienes and share that with all ;P
These statements are mutually exclusive. You cannot be both "very mature" and unable to control your emotions.
Stating your age and the stating you're mature for that age directly implies you are at least "child-like"
Finally, saying you're very mature is like saying "I'm the most humble person I know!" Immediately letting everybody you are in no way humble. In your case, implying that you are in no way mature.
It's the Internet, calm down.
well still nothing to do with child-like just sayin meet me in real life and u know what i mean ;P
and yeah the internetz is a **** thing
Edited by SoulCrusherExWow. This argument still raging when I wake up.
It is not unfair to say that FFG does not seem to test their cards as thoroughly as they should. When you're only releasing a dozen cards at a time, it shouldn't be that hard.
Prime example: Expose. When it first came out, I and several others on A Few Maneuvers called that it's a terrible card and won't see competitive play. And guess what. It's a terrible card and doesn't see competitive play. You can argue that it "gives more options" which is true. But the problem is that it has far too many drawbacks for a single gain: one extra attack die. More options aren't good if they aren't quality options.
Looking at this again, we can say that the overall effect of the new refit is that it will make Concussion missiles effectively cost two more (than a no-missile A-wing). These missiles are marginally able to earn back their points as it is. Now, the chances of them earnings back their points just got drastically reduced. Hence, they will not see play in any winning tournent lists without some seriously good reason to take them.
Oh. And as for a two point upgrade adding a missile slot being the same thing. No. It would not. That would mean that all the A-Wings start out two points cheaper. Which would completely change things. And is effectively what I said I wished FFG had done by simply errataing the costs.
That's all there is to it.
Edited by AndOneI like the points reduction, and the other cards, as I love the A-Wing and would like it to be more competitive.
That being said, I think A-wings will seldom carry missiles from this point forward. If you just want a missile platform, Z-95 Headhunters will scratch that itch for way less points.
That A-wing repaint looks amazing!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm down for 3 maybe 4!
That being said, I think A-wings will seldom carry missiles from this point forward.
A-Wings seldom carried missiles in the first place, at least IME. Then again few ships carried any sort of Ord at all IME.
If you just want a missile platform, Z-95 Headhunters will scratch that itch for way less points.
Yes it will, but the A-Wing does offer things that the Z-95 most likely won't, that mean it will still be effective as a missile boat, at least it will still be about as effective as it was before. Unless the other generic Z-95 comes with an EPT, it still won't be able to TL+F the way a GSP can.
Wow. This argument still raging when I wake up.
It is not unfair to say that FFG does not seem to test their cards as thoroughly as they should. When you're only releasing a dozen cards at a time, it shouldn't be that hard.
Prime example: Expose. When it first came out, I and several others on A Few Maneuvers called that it's a terrible card and won't see competitive play. And guess what. It's a terrible card and doesn't see competitive play. You can argue that it "gives more options" which is true. But the problem is that it has far too many drawbacks for a single gain: one extra attack die. More options aren't good if they aren't quality options.
Looking at this again, we can say that the overall effect of the new refit is that it will make Concussion missiles effectively cost two more (than a no-missile A-wing). These missiles are marginally able to earn back their points as it is. Now, the chances of them earnings back their points just got drastically reduced. Hence, they will not see play in any winning tournent lists without some seriously good reason to take them.
Oh. And as for a two point upgrade adding a missile slot being the same thing. No. It would not. That would mean that all the A-Wings start out two points cheaper. Which would completely change things. And is effectively what I said I wished FFG had done by simply errataing the costs.
That's all there is to it.
Also errating the A-wing would of been a terrible fix would require more reprinting and more confusion then this would implament, and if anything would end you up with the same exact result and the same amount of people complaining. Not sure how errating then adding a missile title for 2 is different then what they did. Its basically a tomatoe, tomatoes issue.
Edited by Hujoe Bigsmy impression on the a-wing refit is, that this is more a global balancing measure not targeted at the a-wing but at the general availability/cost of missiles for the rebellion with the Z-95 as cheap missile platform ahead.
So, giving people an incentive to use missile-less a-wings without removing their current choices seems like a nice move.
Sure, in relative terms you might count the missiles more expensive for the a-wing, but using sec. weapons has been always an explicit and careful choice in this game and you might have to consider if this still matches your expectations, but that is always the case when any new expansion gets released.
that's just my guess, but I wouldn't just look at the a-wing alone to evaluate the changes.
Personally, I agree that Expose *might* see some corner case use now. But that proves my point: there may someday be a niche card that makes missiles competitively worthwhile on an A-Wing again. But as of right now, I don't think that niche case exists.
Furthermore, it's pretty debatable whether expose will still be worth 4 whole points on a PtL A-Wing. Vader could already do that (better even) and I don't think anyone really tried that more than a couple times before realizing it wasn't worth it.
I think the reason you didn't see it happen on Vader as much was due to the movement dial and cost of the ship once all was added up. 24 points is much easier to swallow then 33. I know I wanna run it a few times before dismissing it. I am just excited to get A wings into lists with more options, mind you I still do and they are fun to play Reds with r2s and Greens with PtL/concussion or assault and take out the r2s is just mean. There are times though where I have 20 points in a squad and not quite satisfied with my fill choices.
Expose is not a waste. I have used it to great success on Mauler Mithel.
21 is a kid.
Expose is not a waste. I have used it to great success on Mauler Mithel.
21 is a kid.
If only Backstabber could take Expose . . .